Hostage taking in Australia?

[jacee]

It's standard operating procedure for the usual suspects of the forum to divert to other religions whenever an act of radical Islam is involved. Happens each and every time, like clockwork.

He's just a creep criminal latching onto religious justification.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/15/world/asia/australia-hostage-taker/?c=&page=0

The self-styled Muslim cleric, also known as Sheikh Haron, was facing dozens of charges at the time of the siege, including two counts of being an accessory to the murder of his ex-wife, according to the Attorney General of New South Wales.

...

Court documents show Monis was also facing 45 sex-related charges, including sexual intercourse without consent and aggravated indecent assault.

eta ...

There are fanatics who would condemn entire religions for the acts of criminal extremists and crazies, but there are also many people who stand up for decency and recognize that such hate propaganda corrodes our values:

/illridewithyou-hashtag-takes-off-following-siege

702 ABC Sydney have had calls from Muslim listeners who say they are too scared to ride on public transport at the moment.The hashtag appears to have come from a Facebook post from Rachael Jacobs who was riding on a train, and noticed a Muslim woman quietly take off her head covering.In her post she said: "I ran after her at the train station. I said 'put it back on. I'll walk with u."

Another woman took to Twitter and wrote: "If you reg take the bus b/w Coogee/Martin PL, wear religious attire, &don't feel safe alone: I'll ride withyou. @me for schedule."

Edited December 16, 2014 by jacee

[Smallc]

I can't believe the knots people will tie themselves into. Islam has been taken and turned into something negative by far too many people, just as various Christian religions were at various points. Are all the adherents radical? Of course not. Are most of the adherents radical? Of course not. Are there, as a percentage, more radical adherents willing to commit violent terrorist acts in the name of their chosen brand of faith? Well, it sure seems that way.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Smallc

[BubberMiley]

Any logical person can see that there's a specific issue with Islam at this point in history. Ignoring that is ignoring science.

Islam or radical islam?

[scribblet]

I can't believe the knots people will tie themselves into. Islam has been taken and turned into somrthing negative by far too many people, just as various Christian religions were at various points. Are all the adherents radical? Of course not. Are most of the adherents radical? Of course not. Are there, as a percentage, more radical adherents willing to commit violent terrorist acts in the name of their choawn beans of faith? Well, it sure seems that way.

Me too. There is no comparison today to what is happening now by radical Islamists. How many knots will they tie themselves into to justify the Taliban's recent slaughter of children which included burning them alive and beheading in Pakistan, the Taliban's 'revenge' for Malala Yousafzai's Nobel Peace Prize.

Attacks by lone Islamists are growing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/11294055/Sydney-siege-attacks-by-lone-Islamists-growing.html

[marcus]

I'm atheist and find many faults and problems in most religions in general. That said, while you sit there and focus on this one religion and the kind of destruction it has brought, have you looked at what kind of death and destruction non-religious groups have brought in the past century?

Let's start with Hitler. What about Mussolini? What about Stalin? What about the Japanese imperial army? Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? US administration during various periods, from the nuclear bombs, to Vietnam to the hundreds of thousands of innocent people they have been responsible for killing in the Middle East, just in the recent and current history?

So is this about religion or about the people who carry out the attacks?

People will find an excuse and justify killing and destruction, whether it's through religion, nationalism or any other belief system.

[Boges]

I'm atheist and find many faults and problems in most religions in general. That said, while you sit there and focus on this one religion and the kind of destruction it has brought, have you looked at what kind of death and destruction non-religious groups have brought in the past century?

Let's start with Hitler. What about Mussolini? What about Stalin? What about the Japanese imperial army? Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? US administration during various periods, from the nuclear bombs, to Vietnam to the hundreds of thousands of innocent people they have been responsible for killing in the Middle East, just in the recent and current history?

So is this about religion or about the people who carry out the attacks?

People will find an excuse and justify killing and destruction, whether it's through religion, nationalism or any other belief system.

I've said it before, the aspects of this strain of Islam are far more cultural than religious. That's why Muslims have no problem killing other Muslims if they aren't doing the Islam thing "their" way.

[Smallc]

I've said it before, the aspects of this strain of Islam are far more cultural than religious. That's why Muslims have no problem killing other Muslims if they aren't doing the Islam thing "their" way.

Believing you are superior is a great justification to kill other people. Believing that oh go to heaven when you kill the inferiors is what separates religious violence. I'm not sure if that makes it worse, or just harder to combat.

[Smallc]

I'm atheist and find many faults and problems in most religions in general. That said, while you sit there and focus on this one religion and the kind of destruction it has brought, have you looked at what kind of death and destruction non-religious groups have brought in the past century?

Let's start with Hitler. What about Mussolini? What about Stalin? What about the Japanese imperial army? Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? US administration during various periods, from the nuclear bombs, to Vietnam to the hundreds of thousands of innocent people they have been responsible for killing in the Middle East, just in the recent and current history?

So is this about religion or about the people who carry out the attacks?

People will find an excuse and justify killing and destruction, whether it's through religion, nationalism or any other belief system.

As an atheist I find all religions disgusting. I find radical Islam especially so.

[Smallc]

As an aside, I'm not sure what beans of faith are, but apparently I have a problem with them...stupid iPhone.

[BubberMiley]

Me too. There is no comparison today to what is happening now by radical Islamists. How many knots will they tie themselves into to justify the Taliban's recent slaughter of children which included burning them alive and beheading in Pakistan, the Taliban's 'revenge' for Malala Yousafzai's Nobel Peace Prize.

Who is the "they" you are referring to? Nobody is "justifying" such attacks, and it's offensive that you would suggest they are. Don't make things up. It brings the quality of the forum down.

[Michael Hardner]

Any logical person can see that there's a specific issue with Islam at this point in history. Ignoring that is ignoring science.

It's a vague statement, and what does science have to do with it ?

[Shady]

It's a vague statement, and what does science have to do with it ?

Sorry, I should have said statistics.

[dre]

Mostly Muslim religious people.

Im not sure. My guess is that when one human dies a violent death at the hands of another, its just as likely the person doing the killing was a christian.

[dre]

Sorry, I should have said statistics.

Can you post your statistics?

[Big Guy]

The latest information coming out of Australia is the following; The gunman fell asleep and the Café manager went for his gun. During the struggle the manager was shot and killed. The police heard the shots and immediately stormed the café. The other hostage and gunman were shot during the exchange of fire between the gunman and police.

Now I do understand that the scenario may change to reveal new information.

The current Australian position is that the café manager was a hero in attempting to disarm the gunman. I wonder if the actions of the manager (heroic as they were) should be the template of how to deal with hostage taking situations. Looks to me like his attempt to make things better made things worse in that they forced the police to act.

I know it is always easier to evaluate from a distance and after the fact but I wonder if trying to disarm a nutbar with a rifle is a good idea.

[BubberMiley]

Speaking of statistics, 100% of the instances where Shady has been asked to source his information, he has failed to do so.

[Michael Hardner]

Sorry, I should have said statistics.

Ok, I can't argue that there are NOT segments of the population that can be associated with criminal acts, depending on how you decide to group them. But it's another thing to assume a causal link, or to use religion as a pretext for discriminating against people - Christian or not. Furthermore the same arguments about characteristics such as that can be used against race, but many seem to see that argument as abhorrent in that instance. I'd say that's an inconsistent position.

[Hudson Jones]

Nationalism isn't religion though.

A Canadian that volunteers for the military and follow orders is very different than what ISIS is calling for.

It's the belief in a set of ideas. Adherence to nationalism, just like adherence to religion, involve strong beliefs in various degrees and a set of principles.

A Canadian who volunteers could be doing it for different reasons. It could be due to nationalism or out of necessity (work).

But I was also trying to make a point that whatever our beliefs and moral standards are, we are killing innocent people as well. Don't have the stats in front of me, but I'm quite certain that we've killed more people than all those religious fundamentalists. So whatever their beliefs and moral standards are, shouldn't we be looking at ourselves first and try to fix ourselves first?

These Muslim fundamentalists didn't just appear out of thin air. We have to look at what is pushing for people to move towards them. We have to look at the puppets we have installed in those regions. We have to look at our activities in those regions. We can't just point to some religion and shrug and pretend our hands are clean.

[GostHacked]

Does not seem like this guy was a terrorist, but just another thug (murder of his wife, various sexual assault charges, also wanted for fraud back in Iran).

[WestCoastRunner]

Does not seem like this guy was a terrorist, but just another thug (murder of his wife, various sexual assault charges, also wanted for fraud back in Iran).

A former Islamist was interviewed on CNN the other night and warned that the Western society should not treat this as a one-off. The Mayor of the town where this took place called it a one-off and he warned that it is very dangerous to not take this more seriously. It was an extraordinary interview. Here is the transcript:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-balan/2014/12/16/cnns-cooper-and-guest-its-dangerous-think-sydney-attack-one

Edited December 17, 2014 by WestCoastRunner

[scribblet]

Can you post your statistics?

Some here, there are lots more

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080914

Jihadism: Tracking a month of deadly attacks

Jihadist attacks killed more than 5,000 people in just one month, an investigation by the BBC World Service and King's College London has found.

Civilians bore the brunt of the violence, with more than 2,000 killed in reported jihadist incidents during November 2014. Islamic State carried out the most attacks, adding to the spiralling death toll in Iraq and Syria. Explore the map to find out more.

[eyeball]

Any logical person can see that there's a specific issue with Islam at this point in history. Ignoring that is ignoring science.

The issue is with religious thinking. Comparing the peccidilloes of one or two misses the point. It's like arguing the merits of waterboarding vs pulling out fingernails.

[marcus]

Some here, there are lots more

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080914

Jihadism: Tracking a month of deadly attacks

Jihadist attacks killed more than 5,000 people in just one month, an investigation by the BBC World Service and King's College London has found.

Civilians bore the brunt of the violence, with more than 2,000 killed in reported jihadist incidents during November 2014. Islamic State carried out the most attacks, adding to the spiralling death toll in Iraq and Syria. Explore the map to find out more.

Those Jihadist and Zionists have a lot in common. They target and kill a lot of civilians. This map, which is similar to the maps on bbcnews is from the early days of the last attack on Gaza. Way before Israel had killed more than 1000 civilians.

Edited December 17, 2014 by marcus

[scribblet]

As said before, Israel does not deliberately target children as do the terrorists.

Tarak Fatah likens ignoring the role of religious ideology in this toThe Stockholm Syndrome.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/straighttalk/archives/2014/12/20141217-072216.html

[sharkman]

Also, Israel has not targeted their enemies because God told them to as the Muslim terrorists do, to get virgins or status in heaven for killing infidels. I don't know why the same old posters keep dragging up the same tired old arguments.