kimmy Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 That said, I'm getting more and more curious about the question of who "we" are really supporting in Syria. I gather that it's "anti-government forces, but not ISIS but rather other non-ISIS anti-government forces who are totally not ISIS!" but it seems questionable to say the least. Like I mentioned before, the question of why they can't seem to stop ISIS's large-scale oil production and export is a serious head-scratcher for me. How hard is it to find oil wells in the desert? How hard is it to find millions of dollars of oil per day driving around in the desert? Where is the oil going? They can read your cross-word puzzle over your shoulder from space, but they can't find hundreds of tanker trucks driving across the desert? Really? And then you have Chris Christie flipping out in the debate, demanding a no-fly zone over Syria to stop Russia? He's mad enough that he wants to go to war in Syria to fight... Russia? What? I can't help wondering if the real priority in Syria isn't fighting ISIS but rather toppling al-Assad. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) Thanks to Bush and Obama, they've introduced this disturbing international norm that nobody needs to go the UN to make war in another country's territories. So this allows Putin enters Crimea, and Turkey to enter Iraq etc. The UN and UNSC is essentially becoming irrelevant if not already, so we're back to the insanely dangerous pre-WWII shit-show in the international sphere. Thanks Uncle Sam! It's not the UN that changed the pre-WWII equation when it comes to international relations. Rather, it was the advent of nuclear weapons and the threat of mutual assured destruction. That's what has kept the peace between,major powers since WWII, not the league of nations mark 2. Nuclear weapons are likely right up there with vaccines and antibiotics in terms of inventions that have saved millions of lives. Thanks to them, we live in a world where an all out war between powerful countries is basically unthinkable. Edited December 17, 2015 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) kimmy: That said, I'm getting more and more curious about the question of who "we" are really supporting in Syria. I gather that...etc. Hear hear...pounds desk D'israeli style. Edited December 17, 2015 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 That said, I'm getting more and more curious about the question of who "we" are really supporting in Syria. I gather that it's "anti-government forces, but not ISIS but rather other non-ISIS anti-government forces who are totally not ISIS!" but it seems questionable to say the least. Like I mentioned before, the question of why they can't seem to stop ISIS's large-scale oil production and export is a serious head-scratcher for me. How hard is it to find oil wells in the desert? How hard is it to find millions of dollars of oil per day driving around in the desert? Where is the oil going? They can read your cross-word puzzle over your shoulder from space, but they can't find hundreds of tanker trucks driving across the desert? Really? And then you have Chris Christie flipping out in the debate, demanding a no-fly zone over Syria to stop Russia? He's mad enough that he wants to go to war in Syria to fight... Russia? What? I can't help wondering if the real priority in Syria isn't fighting ISIS but rather toppling al-Assad. -k Turkey buys the oil and is a supposed "NATO ally" so that's the conflict of interest right there and likely why little/nothing is done about the oil shipments. No one's going to war with Russia, least of all the US, don't worry about it. They might plink at each other a bit in Syria though if they feel like it, it lets you test out the latest weapon technologies, all good friendly sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Turkey buys the oil and is a supposed "NATO ally" so that's the conflict of interest right there and likely why little/nothing is done about the oil shipments. No one's going to war with Russia, least of all the US, don't worry about it. They might plink at each other a bit in Syria though if they feel like it, it lets you test out the latest weapon technologies, all good friendly sport. I'm not very concerned about a war breaking out in Syria. I'm more concerned with the apparent lack of interest in cutting off ISIS's supply of money. Like, if the reason why we haven't bombed ISIS's oil infrastructure out of existence is that our buddy Turkey wants to buy cheap oil, then clearly we're really not very concerned about fighting ISIS after all. Cheap gas in Turkey is not worth continuing to fund this organization's ability to wage war in Syria and launch terror attacks around the world. Saving our Turkish friends a few cents at the pumps is simply not worth terror attacks and floods of refugees. This has to stop. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 I can't help wondering if the real priority in Syria isn't fighting ISIS but rather toppling al-Assad. -k Getting rid of Assad was always the goal. But the path towards that goal is not very direct. Quote Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser ohm on soundcloud.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Getting rid of Assad was always the goal. But the path towards that goal is not very direct. Sure it is, you just go straight thru Russia. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 kimmy is right. Face it. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 kimmy is right. Face it. Who's disagreeing with her? And what is the disagreement about? Quote Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser ohm on soundcloud.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) kimmy is right. Face it. All kimmy has done is point out how FUBAR and incoherent our alliances and interests are in the region. Tell me something else I've already known for decades. Edited December 17, 2015 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 All kimmy has done is point out how FUBAR and incoherent our alliances and interests are in the region. Tell me something else I've already known for decades. You've been saying it, I've been saying it, others have been saying it. But saying it was also akin to being Anti-American. Hang on, lemme get my tinfoil hat, because that's all just a conspiracy I guess. Quote Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser ohm on soundcloud.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 You've been saying it, I've been saying it, others have been saying it. But saying it was also akin to being Anti-American. Hang on, lemme get my tinfoil hat, because that's all just a conspiracy I guess. Your historical context is such that you make basic errors in the flow of history...like you insisting that Jewish settlers were in the Gaza Strip when we first engaged over these issues. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 I'm not very concerned about a war breaking out in Syria. I'm more concerned with the apparent lack of interest in cutting off ISIS's supply of money. Like, if the reason why we haven't bombed ISIS's oil infrastructure out of existence is that our buddy Turkey wants to buy cheap oil, then clearly we're really not very concerned about fighting ISIS after all. Cheap gas in Turkey is not worth continuing to fund this organization's ability to wage war in Syria and launch terror attacks around the world. Saving our Turkish friends a few cents at the pumps is simply not worth terror attacks and floods of refugees. This has to stop. -k Of course we're not serious about fighting ISIS. If we were "serious", we wouldn't be taking the occasional shot from the air, we'd have a few million troops on the ground. We weren't serious in Iraq, we weren't serious in Afghanistan, and we aren't serious in Syria now. The West has not fought a war "seriously" since WWII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Of course we're not serious about fighting ISIS. If we were "serious", we wouldn't be taking the occasional shot from the air, we'd have a few million troops on the ground. We weren't serious in Iraq, we weren't serious in Afghanistan, and we aren't serious in Syria now. The West has not fought a war "seriously" since WWII. Agreed. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Of course we're not serious about fighting ISIS. If we were "serious", we wouldn't be taking the occasional shot from the air, we'd have a few million troops on the ground. We weren't serious in Iraq, we weren't serious in Afghanistan, and we aren't serious in Syria now. The West has not fought a war "seriously" since WWII. Who's this we you're talking about? There doesn't seem to be much shortage of interest for getting serious around here. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 This excellent 5 minute video is the best I've seen to show what an unholy mess Syria is. It's a proxy war where everyone is playing bullshit poker. Anyone who thinks bombing is a good idea needs to look at this and explain how the bombing is going to bring a good end to this gong show. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 I wonder if it ever gives you a slight pause, a momentary thought you might be wrong, when you see the oil companies profits and stock plunge month after month on dirt cheap oil, and when precious metals continue to decline. If the oil companies were running governments don't you think by now they'd have done something to INCREASE the price of oil? Not necessarily... There's two ways to increase your profit. You can charge more for your widgets, or you can increase your market share, or you can try to get your materials or labor for less. Initially projects like the war in Iraq did both. The price went up for a while which made billions for companies that sell oil. But US companies also got their hands on a whole lot of supply. They ran oil out of Iraq UNMETERED for months and never paid a dime for any of it, and when the Iran/US controlled government took charge western companies were given all the contracts for oil services, etc. Not only that but they were able to price-gouge the US public. The military was paying insane amounts for the oil and fuel they used over there. Its no big surprise that right before the invasion the Bush administration had a big secret meeting with all the energy companies. They were talking about how to share the loot... Iraq's rich low sulfur oil fields. It may not have gone as well as they hoped, and we all know how bad the project was bumbled and botched at every stage. But the hundreds of billions or even trillions that were taken from tax payers during OPERATION: OOPS mostly ended up in the pockets of other Americans. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 This excellent 5 minute video is the best I've seen to show what an unholy mess Syria is. It's a proxy war where everyone is playing bullshit poker. Anyone who thinks bombing is a good idea needs to look at this and explain how the bombing is going to bring a good end to this gong show. I don't think anyone with half a brain thinks that bombing is going to bring a good end to this. But when the only tool you like using is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. ISIL is the defacto government of millions of people in an area the size of a large US state, that includes several large cities. And even western interventionalists and the hapless chicken-hawks that support them know that if they try to dislodge ISIL from places like Mosul they will face a prolonged urban insurgency that will last for decade(s). These people arent gonna march out on the battle field like they do in Braveheart. Even if the west DID have the appetite to really take all this territory back, ISIL would just fade into the population and wait. In fact... thats what this exact bunch of folks already did. These are the same insurgents the US and its hapless allies fought for a decade in Iraq post 2003. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted December 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 So in Syria, the Americans fly over Northern Syria and drop military equipment and supplies. When they are finished then the Russians fly over and bomb the Syrians and the military equipment and supplies the USA just dropped. Now the Russians have set up anti-aircraft missiles and the Pentagon halted all manned flights, although US drones are still flying in the area. Russia then began bombing the rebels the US had been supporting. Get our planes and people out of there. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 When will Trudeau begin dropping the blankets ? It's getting cold outside ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted December 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 So the best that I can figure out, right now over Syria are flying and bombing are American, Australian, British, Dutch, French, Jordanian, Moroccan, Turkish, Syrian, Russian and Canadian airplanes. On the ground are S-400 Russian anti-aircraft missiles capable of bringing down any of those aircraft. Anybody but me think we have a major problem here with any spark or mistake starting a major war. I assume that there are a few on this board that would like to see Canada involved in another war so we can show that we stand for the same things that America does - the Trump, Cruz and other war monger America. I say get our planes and people out of there tonight before this thing explodes and we get caught in another American war. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 They can't since Saudis hold most of the cards in this industry, but I suppose they could create a reason to attack them. If they did the price of oil would go up again. It's worth considering, there's no down side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) I say get our planes and people out of there tonight before this thing explodes and we get caught in another American war. The moment Harper sent our jets into Iraq (and then Syria) and starting bombing ISIS targets we got ourselves caught up in the Iraq War. I doubt there will be any war between Russia in Syria, but how can whatever "moderates" we want to take power from Assad have a chance of doing so when as you say, Russia is blowing up moderate Sunni rebel targets to prop up Assad. Seems like kind of a stalemate to me in terms of Assad. If the West targets the Assad regime and ISIS/jihadists, while Russia targets "moderate rebels" and possibly ISIS....who's left to run the country after the smoke clears? Kurds?! I say broker a deal in our favour with Iran and Russia to agree to prop up Assad and call it a day, let them our dirty work of cleaning ISIS out of Syria and also Iraq. Best case scenario I see out of Iraq now is Iran and Russia propping up the Shia gov in Iraq (like they're doing now) and hopefully suppressing the Sunni ISIS/al-Qaeda. Downside is the US essentially gave Iran and Russia another Shia ally/puppet state. Oops! The wildcard is the Sunni states like Saudi Arabia. They want Assad gone, and this is their best opportunity. Been a very long time since we've ever seen such a proxy war with so many different interests from different sides fighting, both foreign and domestic, with each side having a legit chance to come out on top. Syria is going to be a very long civil war, as long or longer than Iraq. Edited December 20, 2015 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 We really need to stop calling it a civil war. It should not have been called a civil war to begin with. Quote Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser ohm on soundcloud.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted December 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Qatar is prepared to spend $200 billion on hosting the World Cup of soccer - but is staying out of this Middle East conflict. We are being played like a fine fiddle. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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