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War Against ISIL


Big Guy

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So the coalition continues to drop "smart" bombs that continue to kill innocent civilians:

Well I guess if someone thinks that doing nothing while ISIL engages in ethnic cleansing is an appropriate response then I guess this is interesting.

http://rights-iq.org/ar/index.php/البيانات/3271-2014-the-year-of-humanitarian-abuses-in-iraq.html

OTOH, if you don't care about the innocents deliberately murdered by ISIL then you have demonstrated that you don't really care about civilians. So it is not clear why you are so bothered by a few people being killed by accident as a result of bombings intended to end ISIL.

Edited by TimG
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You seem to mistake emotion for analysis. So now you choose to try to paint Big Guy with the old "don't care about innocents" brush. Why not just call him a terrorist lover or some of those other silly things I see on this board.

The movement calling itself ISIS has to be stopped. It can be starved if there are no replacements for those being picked off by their enemies. The method it uses to recruit is the social media, a well organized propaganda organization and goading the stupid coalition into killing innocent civilians as "acceptable collateral damage".

I will try one more time: When a Western soldier kills an ISIS fighter then that fighter is eliminated. Done.

When the West drops a bomb and kills the intended target then the target is eliminated as are those "collateral damage" and their families. Revenge for family is a major part of this culture. Families are large. One non-combatant individual can have dozens of close relatives and their extended family. It has been estimated that for every innocent non-combatant civilian killed (or badly injured) there is created and motived two potential fighters and/or suicide bombers.

Where do you think these suicide bombers come from?

You appear to misunderstand what is happening in Iraq and Syria and certainly choose to misinterpret my postings. So be it.

That is why this small group of "junior varsity" and "scumbags and murderers" and "bunch of dusty peasants" is kicking the bejeebers out of the biggest nations in the world.

We keep playing their game, fighting their kind of war and swallowing their goading hook, line an sinker!

But have it your way - keep bombing and bombing and bombing and .....

Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.

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That is why this small group of "junior varsity" and "scumbags and murderers" and "bunch of dusty peasants" is kicking the bejeebers out of the biggest nations in the world.

We keep playing their game, fighting their kind of war and swallowing their goading hook, line an sinker!

But have it your way - keep bombing and bombing and bombing and .....

Well, not really. They actually appear to be losing against another bunch of dusty peasants who think something different than they do, because said bunch has us backing them up. I admit I'm not sure what a bejeebers is but I sure haven't seen one heading out of any nation, kicked or otherwise. I agree we should be fighting them differently to ensure the win, but the powers that be aren't going to ask me or you.

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Well, not really. ... I agree we should be fighting them differently to ensure the win, but the powers that be aren't going to ask me or you.

When ISIS started to show their black flags, you could fit all of them into Rogers Center in Toronto.

Look what they have done since. Why have they thrived?

Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.

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When ISIS started to show their black flags, you could fit all of them into Rogers Center in Toronto.

Look what they have done since. Why have they thrived?

I think they have probably peaked, and are on their way out. I don't think they are currently thriving. This is just my opinion from the MSM.

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One of the big (maybe the biggest) reason there is so little progress in the war on ISIS/ISIL/Daesh is that Turkey is not all that enthusiastic in the fight. Turkey, with its large, modern armed forces and 500 mile border with Syria, could probably shut ISIS down by itself if it wanted to. But Turkey wants to fight Assad and the Kurds more than it wants to fight ISIS. Excellent piece.

But as Turkey and Russia dispute the incident, it is casting a spotlight on one of the most troubling developments in the evolving struggle in the Middle East: When it comes to fighting the Islamic State and extremism more generally, Turkey—and President Recep Tayyip Erdogan—has become a significant part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists.

- Noam Chomsky

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

- Upton Sinclair

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I do agree that "collateral damage" does create more terrorists, and that revenge is a part of their culture, for some "not all" but lets just say your right, of those 250 that have died as Collateral damage, it would have created just 500 additional recruits.....there has to be more to it than that, 500 additional recruits does not equate their current numbers or their successes......

Nor does it take into account how many insurgents have died in those same attacks......which is more than 500 , if you are to believe the news or the reports from other coalition forces that have done BDA (Bomb Damage assessments) .....which have proven that Airstrikes, are reducing enemy strength faster than their recruiting programs can replenish.

Nor does it take into account ISIL crimes, i mean your equation must be a double edge sword right, how many Kurds has ISIL actions recruited, to name just one of the persecuted groups that ISIL has created... I'm sure it is more than just 500 , i am guessing as i don't have any source....

Collateral damage is tragic, but it is a part of warfare, there has never been a clean war in which only combatants die.....never has been never will be....Sure there are rules to limit it, but there are no rules to eliminate it....that is a impossible task...

We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.

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i think you're right. The whole ISIS edifice is constructed on sand.

"Move on, there's nothing to see here." Such hubris, I can't imagine; our leaders must think the masses have been successfully mass-mind controlled, and will never say, "enough is enough"!!

Thankful to have become a free thinker.

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Western bombs fill ISIS with joy. The only thing that could make them happier is western boots on the ground.

What will it take for us to learn?

As I learned from spending time interviewing Islamic State members in Syria and northern Iraq, George W Bush’s “war on terror” turned out to be a classic terrorist recruitment programme of this kind. In 2001 there were roughly a couple of hundred terrorists in the mountains of the Hindu Kush who posed a threat to the international community. Now, after the war on terror has claimed what some estimate to be as many as one million Iraqi lives, we are facing some 100,000 terrorists. Isis was created six months after the start of the invasion: it is Bush’s baby.

Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists.

- Noam Chomsky

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

- Upton Sinclair

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I fully agree. We are biting and taking it hook, line and sinker.

That is until our bombers come home and we back out of that chaos.

Edited by Big Guy

Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.

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From the article;

How can it be that leading politicians learned nothing from 14 years of counterproductive anti-terror wars? How can it be that they still believe that the best way to get rid of an infestation of wasps is to batter the nests with a sledgehammer?

It's simply because governments and politicians refuse to face the fact it was the counterproductive results of their countries past geopolitical policies that created this mess in the first place. Doing so would cause someone/thing to screech "soft on terror" and the fear of losing face and votes.

I've seen little kids get over the angst of accountability in about as much time as it takes to say... "I'm sorry".

A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.

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You guys continue to spew the same message, that the combat actions of NATO, and the others are doing nothing but falling into the trap set by the evil terrorists......( don't give them to much credit) yet the facts do not support your claims at all.....fact one.....ISIL has killed more Iraqis and Syrians than any nation involved infact 90 % of those killed have been done by....... opps is that true "ISIL"....Can't be....meaning the good guys should be getting the bulk of the recruits......yes folks it is true.....Damn and i thought you guys were on to something......

Your article is taking some huge liberties with numbers.....and misleading you down the wrong path.....Lets start with the number killed in Iraq...even the UN numbers are a 1/3 of those used in the article.....come'on the UN can't be that wrong are they.....

Then there is that magical formula you use to calculate new recruits due to NATO actions.....what was it for every civilian killed by NATO bombs we create two new terrorists.....which sounds impressive until you start doing the math, on how many civilians were actually killed anyone really know?.....

What you don't take into account is all the important factors.....like how many of these recruits are pressed into fighting at gun point.....i bring this up because a Syrian militia brig was captured and forced to fight for ISIL.....that's 1000 men...shit that's larger than twice the amount of civilians killed by NATO air strikes....wonder why they do that.....are'nt they getting enough with all that NATO killing....seems not infact it is their favorite method of recruiting.....

How about the elephant in the room, their religion....."hey" we don't talk about that here in the west.....it's racist.....News flash.....this draws in more recruits..... than Canadians to black friday events in the US.....the chance for some young muslim to show his chest hair and how big his balls are....Better than disney land for muslims...

the real question here is .......wait for it.....are NATO, Russian air strikes having an effect, damn straight they are, you can't loose experience fighters in great numbers, and have them replaced by green horns.....and still have the same effect on the fight.....like green horns they break and run , or cry for mommy when the going gets tough......I'll sum up....ISIL is going down, maybe not as fast as you want but it is going down.......leave the math to those that know how to do it......

We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.

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It's simply because governments and politicians refuse to face the fact it was the counterproductive results of their countries past geopolitical policies that created this mess in the first place. Doing so would cause someone/thing to screech "soft on terror" and the fear of losing face and votes.

I've seen little kids get over the angst of accountability in about as much time as it takes to say... "I'm sorry".

In fairness, it would be a lot easier for principled politicians (they do exist) to say and do the right things if people would become better informed. The media could definitely do a better job there.

There are too many people who vacillate between apathy and fear.

Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists.

- Noam Chomsky

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

- Upton Sinclair

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It's simply because governments and politicians refuse to face the fact it was the counterproductive results of their countries past geopolitical policies that created this mess in the first place. ...

More logical failure...still waiting for Haitian terror attacks because they were so hard done by Canada.

Economics trumps Virtue. 

 

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the real question here is .......wait for it.....are NATO, Russian air strikes having an effect, damn straight they are, you can't loose experience fighters in great numbers, and have them replaced by green horns.....and still have the same effect on the fight.....like green horns they break and run , or cry for mommy when the going gets tough......I'll sum up....ISIL is going down, maybe not as fast as you want but it is going down.......leave the math to those that know how to do it......

Sure, let's all focus on the latest Russian war porn as a distraction. That way, people won't be inclined to ask intelligent questions - like where did ISIS come from and why has 14 years of bombing only made the problem of Islamic extremism worse.

Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists.

- Noam Chomsky

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

- Upton Sinclair

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That's all you got out of my reply is Russian war porn.....you don't want to discuss anything , what you want is for me to tell you what you want to here.....which is IT IS ALL THE USA FAULT.....and the ISLAMIC part of the problem, well they get a free pass...

And yet is was OK for Sadam to invade Kuwait......it was OK for Sadam to ignore UN sanctions, It was OK for islamic extremism to rear it's ugly head, it is OK for a group of terrorist to decide they are going to take a region by force, and to kill all those that do not have the same extremist beliefs....why is it OK.....because we don't want to create any more Islamic extremists......which does not take much, burn a koran, draw a picture, or just admit your from the west, and poof another extremists.......

In the end of this conflict you can study it all you want....blame the US for taking action.....they have big shoulders......but wait in the end the problems solution is going to surprise you......it was them damn islamic extremist that made all this happen....and all we did was react to the mess they created.....

Edited by Army Guy

We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.

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That's all you got out of my reply is Russian war porn.....you don't want to discuss anything , what you want is for me to tell you what you want to here.....which is IT IS ALL THE USA FAULT.....and the ISLAMIC part of the problem, well they get a free pass...

The only people who think the terrorists have been given a free pass are those who've given the US and it's allies one.

A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.

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OK eyeball, your right , and i'm wrong.....that is what you want to hear is it not.....These scumbags are cutting off heads because of the US and it's aggressive policies in the middle east......they are killing anyone who is not of the same color , race, or religious beliefs because of the US...if it can be boiled down to these simple facts then the sky is rosey in your world....

In my world regardless of who created them, they are here and the only way to make them stop, is with force.....

We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.

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It is always difficult to pin down the exact "cause" of something that has gone through numerous phases.

Some people feel that the cause was Western need for oil or go back farther to British mismanagement in that region or back farther to ...

Personally, I think the "trigger" was Bin Laden and 9/11. That successful attack on America with 19 suicide bombers killing thousands of Americans caused great indignation and humiliation to Americans. Revenge was required and the American government at the time chose a very unfortunate path. It decided to go on a path that led to the destabilization of the whole region.

I believe that before the invasion of Iraq there existed an evolved separation of powers working against each other but maintained a stability in the region. The removal of a stable government in Iraq was like removing the keystone from a roman arch. The sides began to cave in and soon everything was in rubble. The problem is you cannot reset a keystone without rebuilding the sides.

I believe that many poor decisions were made after 9/11, the worst one being the invasion of Iraq. That decision and action was the sole responsibility of the USA so I personally blame them for releasing the Middle East chaos genie from the bottle.

Unfortunately, I also believe that we have seen only the initial chaos with lots to come. Yemen, Oman, UAE and Saudi Arabia are just beginning to boil with the same players also starting to assert themselves in that region.

Beheadings, burnings and other atrocities are tactics - we have to look past that and understand the strategy.

Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.

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I'm feeling a bit conspiracy-minded about current developments regarding Turkey, ISIS, and our allies in this conflict.

Russia has been claiming that the volume of oil being smuggled from ISIS-controlled areas into Turkey is on such a major scale that it's difficult to believe that Turkey is unaware of it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/moscow-steps-up-attacks-on-turkey-over-isis-oil-pipeline-a6752216.html

Russia has been targeting these operations with their bombing campaign, and it seems possible that this may have resulted in the downed Russian jet. This area-- Raqqah-- where Russia has been bombing oil infrastructure, is a lot closer to Turkey than to Iraq...

Is our NATO ally buying hundreds of millions of dollars worth of oil from ISIS? If so, doesn't it seem kind of unlikely that we-- Canada, the US, and whichever other Western nations are supposedly fighting ISIS-- don't know about it as well? It can't be easy to sneak vast quantities of oil around in the desert with surveillance planes and spy satellites flying around overhead.

But if not Turkey, then where is it going, and why can't we put a stop to it? Something about all this just defies logic.

-k

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Kimmy I think you raise an execellent point. Now the press at one point suggested Russia was at the time of its bombing run attacking Syrian Turkmen on the ground not ISIL. Syrian Turkmen are rebels very close to Turkey fighting to dispose Assad. For that reason alone I could see Turkey shooting down the Russian craft.

However your reference must be looked for other reaons at a I shall now explain.

Turkey to this day provides government protected offices for Al Quaeda, its Syrian operations called Al Nusra, the Taliban, Hamas, and about 200 other Islamic terror cells dedicated to destroying Israel and Jordan in Ankara.

Erdogan at one point cultivated close economic ties with Russia but then began obtaining cheaper black market from Isil captured oil fields in Northern Syria near the Turkish border. Russia has started bombing those oil fields.

Erdogan has made it clear he considers Assad more of an enemy than ISIL.

This is the same Erdogan who was close allies with Iran both fighting the Kurds, then turned on Iran. At one point Erdogan was close allies with Assad and turned on him.

In fact Erdogan cultivated close financial exchanges with the Russians and has now flipped on them as he did Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Israel as well as Jordan and the UAE when those nations would not look the other way wit Al Quaeda, Hamas, and othr Muslim Brotherhood terror cells operating in Egypt, Jordan and the West Bank.

So what Kimmy raises does not surprise me. Its also the reason Turkey arbitrarily on its own declared anything 500 yards inside Syrian territory next to the Turkish border, Turkish air space.

Turkey is by no means looked upon by Germany, Britain, France or Italy as a close ally. None of them wanted Turkey in the EEC or trust Erdogan. Then there is Nato's Greece which has a mutual naval alliance with Israel to protect each other from Turkish invasion of either of their waters or Cyprus waters. That got tacit approval from NATO which considers the Israeli navy more reliable than the Turkish one in the ME as an ally.

In fact NATO was very quiet when China formed a naval alliance with Israel as part of an extensive military alliance which all but made it unnecessary for Israel to attack Iran which is also China's ally. Germany gave Israel 6 state of the art naval vessels, not just to offset Iran concerns but concerns with Turkey in coastal waters near Cyprus and Israel.

No one but Obama is trusting of Erdogan at this point.

The Kurds who interestingly Justin Trudeau wants to help with more advisers, is being openly attacked by Turkey even though the Kurds are also fighting Assad and ISIL.

In this strange world Erdogan is panicking finding his importance shrinking. Erdogan sees the Kurds and Assad as his no.1 and 2 enemy, then Zionists as his no.3 enemy, then Iran nd Hezbollah. ISIL is not on the top of his list of groups to hate.

Edited by Rue

I come to you to hell.

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The west overall seems to favour ISIS. The US and the UK bashed Russia for doing what the west has not been able to do so far. And that is give a big push back against ISIS. The hypocrisy of calling out the Russians for doing exactly the same thing the west does, air bombing campaings against ISIS.

Does that make any sense at all?

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