War Against ISIL

[Big Guy]

I have attempted to begin a new thread because this "conflict" is now a full fledged war.

It is official, the USA has just declared war on ISIL and is trying to get support from other nations. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), a self proclaimed caliphate which claims parts of Iraq and Syria as its new nation, is now the focus of American (and perhaps Canadian) military action.

The White House has labelled this as “war” in anticipation of prolonged military expedition.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/us-are-at-war-with-islamic-state-group-201491323051540963.html

Other nations are now tap dancing in an effort to either support or “pass” on this war.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100286118/great-britain-must-join-the-war-against-isil/

and

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-wont-declare-war-against-isil.aspx?PageID=238&NID=71664&NewsCatID=429

It will be interesting to see the reaction from Canada, Syria, Russia, Israel, Iran, UAE, Egypt, China et al.

Anyone ready to pick a winner?

[On Guard for Thee]

Canada, Iran, and of course Syria are already in. Keep in mind Syria has been at war with them for some time and it is being waged on their turf partially. Let's hope the loser is ISIS.

[Guest]

I think the winner is obvious. Only the cost is an unknown.

It would help if politicians weren't so bloody wishy washy. David Cameron referring to the latest beheading as having been carried out by people who weren't Muslims. Dear me.

[On Guard for Thee]

Well of course there is probably a certain percentage of potential voters he doesn't want to alienate. At any rate his choice of "monsters" is a fairly accurate descriptor IMO.

[Guest]

I agree. Monsters too.

[Moonlight Graham]

This topic is unnecessary, should be merged into the other ISIL thread. It's not a war when the US says it is, it was a war when ISIL started mass killings in Syria and Iraq.

With Obama saying they will conduct airstrikes in Syria against ISIL, he has given the admin the excuse it needs to conduct airstrikes against the Assad regime to work towards it's removal. We all know how well regime change worked out in Iraq.

The humanitarian excuses for US action are also a joke. US military was nowhere to be found in Rwanda or Sudan or the Congo Wars..

As for Obama saying he will continue to fund groups in Syria and Iraq, the US really needs to stop funding/training/arming groups in the middle-east and other developing countries since it so often bites them in the ass in the longterm.

[Moonlight Graham]

It will be interesting to see the reaction from Canada, Syria, Russia, Israel, Iran, UAE, Egypt, China et al.

Canada should have absolutely no part in this. This is American's mess to clean up, along with Britain and a few others.

[Guest]

It's true that any humanitarian benefits will be incidental. This is to do with threat.

Canada is threatened just like the other countries mentioned, and should do its bit.

As for Obama, he's like David Cameron. A miserable poltroon who can't bring himself to acknowledge the truth.

[Moonlight Graham]

Canada is threatened just like the other countries mentioned, and should do its bit.

Why should we waste our money & other resources trying to fix a problem other western countries, most notably the US and UK, helped create?

[bush_cheney2004]

Because Canada did help to "create" the problem....NATO....Libya....Syria...etc.

[Guest]

Like I said, we are as threatened by ISIS as any country is. Why should we let others defend us without contributing?

[Moonlight Graham]

Like I said, we are as threatened by ISIS as any country is. Why should we let others defend us without contributing?

Because it's in large part their fault. They "threaten us" in large part because the US, Britain et al screwed up. You break it you buy.

[-1=e^ipi]

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), a self proclaimed caliphate which claims parts of Iraq and Syria as its new nation

The Islamic State rejects the concept of nations. They are a new Caliphate that is destined to rule the entire world under Sharia (or at least that's what many of its members think).

David Cameron referring to the latest beheading as having been carried out by people who weren't Muslims. Dear me.

I didn't think David Cameron could sink to a new low after claiming that jihadist attacks have nothing to do with Islam but apparently he has. Now people that believe 'there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the final prophet of Allah', pray 5 times a day towards Mecca, go to Mosque every Friday, fast during Ramadan, and perform Zakat are apparently not Muslim according to David Cameron.

Canada, Iran, and of course Syria are already in. Keep in mind Syria has been at war with them for some time and it is being waged on their turf partially. Let's hope the loser is ISIS.

ISIS is not an entity that can be destroyed by military force alone. You might be able to go in, invade Northern Iraq & Eastern Syria, and remove ISIS from power, but ISIS or a new Islamist entity will just pop up again a few years later stronger than ever.

Like I said, we are as threatened by ISIS as any country is. Why should we let others defend us without contributing?

Maybe, but does it really make sense for Western countries to go into Iraq & Syria and fight ISIS in Sunni lands? Arming the Kurds and assisting the Iraqi government is one thing, but what Obama and Cameron want to do is something else completely.

If western countries go in, it will become an expensive and never ending conflict that will help ISIS get more recruits because they can use the fact that 'Non-Muslim' countries are invading 'Muslim Lands' and use parts of the Quran to claim that Muslims have a duty everywhere to help ISIS. And what exactly is the 'end goal' here?

What western countries should do is the following:

1. Provide some limited assistance to the Kurds and Iraqi government to make sure Kurdish and Shia lands do not fall to ISIS. Western countries are doing this already, we should not do more. Also, stop funding Islamist rebels in Syria and Iraq. Even the so called 'moderate' ones.

2. Let 'allied' regional powers such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Jordan deal with ISIS in Sunni Territories militarily. ISIS is Sunni, therefore Sunni countries are the only ones capable of invading Iraq & Syria and dealing with ISIS without enabling ISIS to obtain more recruits by claiming non-muslims are invading muslim lands.

And if these Sunni regional powers are not willing of dealing with ISIS, then maybe the West should rethink it's 'alliance' with these countries. Though if the West & Sunni regional powers do not intervene then it will only spread & will become a major problem for these Sunni regional powers before it becomes a problem for the West (simply due to geography and the fact that certain countries like Mecca hold significance in Islam). Therefore, the Sunni regional powers would have to deal with ISIS eventually, whether they want to or not.

3. Make peace with Assad. The whole narrative of Assad 'being an evil dictator and the protestors being moderate freedom fighters cause they use twitter' that the Western media has tried to brainwash into people the past few years is simply wrong. There are no 'good guys' in this conflict and distinguishing between 'moderate' and 'extremist' rebel groups is difficult at best.

Like it or not, the Syrian government is supported by a significant fraction of the Syrian population and even if Syria were to magically become a democracy, a significant percentage of the population would still vote for Assad. It is sort of similar to how Canada has monarchists; I don't understand it, but I accept that they exist and the right of those people to have political representation. The requirement that 'Assad needs to step down' in order for peace that various western governments insisted upon was naive.

The best option is to try to pressure 'moderate' rebel factions and the Syrian government (through Russia) to agree to a peace where Assad will remain president until the next election and rebel groups are allowed to form political parties to compete for power. That is far more preferable than having Islamists in power and/or trying to wage a proxy war against Russia to overthrow Assad.

4. Address the problem of funding of Islamist groups from oil-rich gulf states. Address the fact that years of funding of Wahabbism from Saudi Arabia has significantly contributed to this problem. Rethink our 'alliance' with certain countries such as Saudi Arabia. And most importantly, recognize that Islam is a significant ingredient to this jihadist terrorism. Stop trying to pretend it has nothing to do with theology, as the cultural relativists and religious apologists would have you believe.

Unfortunately, Obama, Harper, Cameron and Hollande are all idiots that would rather wage a proxy war against Russia than take the issue of 'Islamists who want to take over the world and establish a global caliphate' seriously. They already chose this 'path' years ago in their reaction to the Arab Spring and their decision to side with Islamists such as Mohammed Morsi. Changing path now would cause too much ego loss, so expect more stupid decisions from these guys over the next 1-2 years. There will probably be another failure of an invasion into Iraq within a year by Western countries, and in 4-5 years the problem of violent Islamists will be worse than ever.

[On Guard for Thee]

If they pop up again we just go get 'em again. Kinda like Whackamo.

[Moonlight Graham]

Unfortunately, Obama, Harper, Cameron and Hollande are all idiots that would rather wage a proxy war against Russia than take the issue of 'Islamists who want to take over the world and establish a global caliphate' seriously. They already chose this 'path' years ago in their reaction to the Arab Spring and their decision to side with Islamists such as Mohammed Morsi. Changing path now would cause too much ego loss, so expect more stupid decisions from these guys over the next 1-2 years. There will probably be another failure of an invasion into Iraq within a year by Western countries, and in 4-5 years the problem of violent Islamists will be worse than ever.

I agree with your sentiments, but your plan doesn't address the big picture.

What needs to be done is for the US (the world's economic and military leader) to end its energy dependence on oil. The money the US has spent on middle-east policy the last few decades has been RIDICULOUS, from foreign wars to foreign aid to Israel. Take those trillions and invest in and/or subsidize alternative energy technology. Invest in hybrid vehicles and electric cars. Then kiss western intervention in the ME goodbye, and the rest will take care of itself.

Thing is, in order to become POTUS or elected to Congress for Democrat/Republicans you have to sell your soul and take the money for big oil, along with kissing the ass of the PNAC and the Israel lobby. US voters need to realize this, reject the bullshit, and elect themselves some real leaders or at least demand some sensible energy policy and foreign policy from the perpetual Dem./Rep. dimwits (but alas Queen Bitch Hillary Clinton will likely be elected in 2016).

The only ones who can end this are US voters. Obama is a spineless puppet who sold his soul years ago, unfortunately the American populace were too stupid to realize that he was just more of the same Democrat/Republican bought-and-paid-for bullshit. Americans were too stupid to realize that an excellent independent candidate like Ralph Nader was staring them in the face, but of course Americans, especially traditional Democratic voters and swing voters, went with George W. Bush (twice) and Obama over him. Of course, they mostly exclusively vote Dem or Rep. in House/Senate races too, an even bigger problem.

[bush_cheney2004]

...What needs to be done is for the US (the world's economic and military leader) to end its energy dependence on oil.

Sure...just as soon as everybody else does the same thing...including Canada. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen......

[marcus]

You cannot eradicate an enemy that is not in uniform. They will simply slide into the population and comeback out once everyone leaves again. IS has been fighting against the Iraqi government and the Shiite majority for some time now. A high tech military cannot stop bombs made in basements.

[Guest]

Well, they can try.

[-1=e^ipi]

What needs to be done is for the US (the world's economic and military leader) to end its energy dependence on oil. The money the US has spent on middle-east policy the last few decades has been RIDICULOUS, from foreign wars to foreign aid to Israel. Take those trillions and invest in and/or subsidize alternative energy technology. Invest in hybrid vehicles and electric cars. Then kiss western intervention in the ME goodbye, and the rest will take care of itself.

Maybe 20-30 years ago, oil-dependence was a good way of explaining the West's behaviour with respect to middle eastern foreign policy. Before that desire to defeat the communists and waging proxy wars against the USSR was a good explanation. And it is very clear that the decade's long alliance between the US and gulf states has origins strongly rooted in oil.

But trying to explain the West's behaviour today as a result of 'desire for oil' is so overly simplistic and wrong it is ridiculous. If it was all about the oil, then why hasn't the US built the keystone XL pipeline? Then they would be far less oil dependent on the middle east then.

The reason we have the current situation is primarily because of stupidity, ignorance and BS political philosophy. In most western countries, on the right you have the religious apologists and on the left you have the cultural-relativists. As a result, according to most western politicians the actions of ISIS and other Islamist groups have 'nothing to do with religion'. Basically all political parties in the west do NOT understand the problem so their actions will always be suboptimal.

I'm not a big fan on quoting old famous people, but I think Sun Tzu might have been on to something when he wrote:

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

[marcus]

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

So why are these groups able to attract people? What are they fighting for? What's the motivation? Revenge? Religious ideology? Money? Feeling of belonging?

You cannot defeat these militant/terrorist groups with an army. Sure, they may bomb and kill a few hundred of them, but they will slip into the population and comeback out again once "mission is accomplished". That's why you need to get to the root of the issue. So what is the root? What are the reasons?

[Guest]

The quest for a worldwide Islamic Caliphate.

Shall we give them one, for the sake of some peace and quiet?

[-1=e^ipi]

So why are these groups able to attract people? What are they fighting for? What's the motivation? Revenge? Religious ideology? Money? Feeling of belonging?

There are many reasons and the issue is complex. But the primary reason is religious ideology. But recognizing the role of religion is simply taboo in western politics, which is why I doubt things will get any better over the next few years.

You cannot defeat these militant/terrorist groups with an army. That's why you need to get to the root of the issue.

Exactly.

[bush_cheney2004]

...You cannot defeat these militant/terrorist groups with an army.

Yes you can....see Philippine Insurrection (1899 - 1902).

[marcus]

The quest for a worldwide Islamic Caliphate.

Shall we give them one, for the sake of some peace and quiet?

That won't happen. They want Iraq and Syria. Two countries where there is instability and chaos already. These are the only places they're able to drive their caravans and stolen U.S. military vehicles and mow down civilians. They cannot go to the East, as Iran has a real military. They cannot go North, as Turkey has a real, U.S. purchased military. They can't go South, as there are several U.S. military bases in the neighbouring countries. They're confined to where the chaos and instability is.

Edited September 15, 2014 by marcus

[marcus]

Yes you can....see Philippine Insurrection (1899 - 1902).

Yes. See over 100 years ago when people made bombs in their basements by following instructions on youtube. Thank you for that lesson in nothing.