Bill Maher Destroys The Liberal Utopian Vision of Islam

[cybercoma]

Don't ignore it at all. In fact, I, and others, go to great pains to make distinctions between groups. Only describing as barbaric and disgusting the behaviour of those groups who indulge in barbaric and disgusting behaviour.

To be even clearer, the only Muslims who disgust me are those whose religious beliefs encourage behaviour that you yourself find disgusting too.

Also, if you were to start a thread describing disgusting and barbaric behaviour by Christians, or Jews, or Rastafarians, etc, I certainly would join in. I'm equal opportunity disgusted. It's just that Muslims take the opportunity so much more often than the others. Currently.

Then we clearly agree, so let's stop saying stupid things like "The Muslim World" or "Muslim Countries" when clearly it's the issues that are the problem. It's Islam. It's not Muslims, as in the totality of Muslims. It's the actions of people. It's government policies in countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran. It's militants who don't ascribe to the rules of war and target and butcher innocent people. I mean these things are the issue, right? A man beats his wife to death, does it really matter if he's Muslim or Christian or an atheist? Because as I've been saying, they all do it and there's more variation within those groups than between them.

[-1=e^ipi]

especially when there's no central authority in Islam.

What about Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi? Isn't he considered to be the caliph by many? Where does he fit into this?

[Guest]

Then we clearly agree, so let's stop saying stupid things like "The Muslim World" or "Muslim Countries" when clearly it's the issues that are the problem. It's Islam. It's not Muslims, as in the totality of Muslims. It's the actions of people. It's government policies in countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran. It's militants who don't ascribe to the rules of war and target and butcher innocent people. I mean these things are the issue, right? A man beats his wife to death, does it really matter if he's Muslim or Christian or an atheist? Because as I've been saying, they all do it and there's more variation within those groups than between them.

When phrases like "The Muslim World" or "Muslim Countries" are used, it would be to describe acceptable practices in those countries.

I think your point that it is Islam, not Muslims, applies when qualified with "as in the totality of Muslims" , but the problem with Islam, as opposed to other religions, is in the numbers involved. The number of proponents who believe religious law should trump secular law, the number of proponents who believe in extreme punishments for breaking that law, the number of proponents who believe it is their duty to expand their religion, by any means. All seem far greater in Islam than any other religion, based on any reasonable reading of current events. Great enough that while they could not be regarded as a majority, they could probably be regarded a "sizable" minority,

[cybercoma]

The number of proponents is meaningless. As has been pointed out repeatedly and backed up by intelligence agencies, politics and culture have far more to do with the things criticized than Islam does. When you say "Muslims" you're generalizing about 1,600,000,000 people. That's 44.5 times the population of Canada. For that matter, people like ISIS are killing other Muslims. The Taliban, they were killing other Muslims. It makes no sense when people talk about "Muslims" as some group, then define them by the most extreme people who claim membership to that group. Especially when it has been pointed out repeatedly that where they live and who's in control of their political institutions matters far more than the religion.

Edited October 10, 2014 by cybercoma

[Guest]

The number of proponents is all that matters. If there were only one of them, there wouldn't be a problem.

[cybercoma]

Look at ISIS. Do you think Islam is really the point there? This is a war for territory that is a direct result of a political vacuum left by the US destabilizing the region when they killed Saddam. They're trying to establish their own nation. They are a militia. Are they religious radicals? Of course, but they're no more the definition of Muslim than the Lord's Resistance is the definition of Christianity. These are geopolitical struggles that use religion as a means to establish group solidarity and determine in-group out-group status, as well as convince people to lay down their life for these battles. It's not the religion that's causing the violence and corruption. It's not Muslims or Islam that's the problem. The issue is a complex struggle of ethnic and political divisions and a fight for a territory that was left destabilized by Western interventions.

So when people are going on about the filthy, evil barbaric Muslims, they just look foolish when thre are 1.6 billion of them, most peaceful, many the targets of this sectarian violence. That's why those commentators are called racists or more accurately bigots. Because their depth of understanding stops abruptly short of any complexities with the issues at all. They buy into these fanatics' and terrorists' group identity bullshit and simply cast a denouncing stroke over "Muslims" or "Muslim Countries." When someone is clearly lacking the depth of thought to understand the complexity of the issues beyond the religion, then, yeah, they're either very stupid or a bigot and I know the majority of posters aren't stupid here.

Why don't we instead simply call out ISIL? Or Assad? Or The Taliban? Why don't we call out the governments, ie, Saudi Arabia or Iran, for barbaric laws? What some people continue to do instead is akin to calling out all Western countries for the police in the US routinely murdering unarmed black youth. It's, put simply, blunt thinking. And since I don't believe for a minute that the people here aren't capable of having the depth of thought required to understand these issues in more complexity, I can only attribute it to a bias of perspective as a result of bigotry. It's thinly veiled because the evidence presented contradicts the notion that Islam is the CAUSE, yet some people still refuse to acknowledge the depth of these issues. Maybe it's media-induced ADD that keeps,people from digging deeper. I don't know. But when depth is offered and ignored, then it's clear something else is at play in their thought process.

Edited October 10, 2014 by cybercoma

[Guest]

You're not offering depth, you're offering obfuscation. You yourself said "It's Islam"!

Millions upon millions of Muslims believe things that you would find abhorrent, but worse than that, to you, is the crime of pointing it out.

The terrible bigotry of not trying to find a way to relieve them of responsibility for their beliefs.

[eyeball]

Hate it. How about you?

It's about par for course.

[Mighty AC]

Look at ISIS. Do you think Islam is really the point there?

You're not offering depth, you're offering obfuscation. You yourself said "It's Islam"!

Millions upon millions of Muslims believe things that you would find abhorrent, but worse than that, to you, is the crime of pointing it out.

Seriously, what is going on Cyber? BC succinctly sums it up here. You are clearly going out of your way to deflect criticism away from actions based in Islamic beliefs yet you have no problem nailing Christians for the same thing. Many ideas factor into abhorrent beliefs and religion is one of the big ones. Progressives normally occupy the moral high ground, but not when you become two faced.

[Argus]

How about those countries with Christian influences like in Central Africa. They just butcher women's genitals in those countries. Is that your definition of less fanatic? Because I doubt that's what you mean.

As far as I'm aware genital mutilation is largely a Muslim thing. I believe the countries in north Africa which practice it all have substantial Muslim populations.

[Argus]

Agreed.

I've already shown on this thread why that isn't so.

No, in fact, you have failed to do so.

[Argus]

That's funny because their views on blasphemy have a lot more in common with some Christians than some other Muslims. This is what I mean when you guys completely ignore the fact that there is as much variation within groups as there is between groups, especially when there's no central authority in Islam.

Do you have any information that sizable numbers of Christians in the world believe those who profane God should be executed? Or that sizable numbers of Christians in the world believe those who leave the religion should be executed?

[Argus]

On occasion? According to Stats Canada some 50% of women are sexually assaulted or raped before they turn 24.

In fact, what the one-time survey done 21 years ago said was that 50% of Canadian women had experienced some form of assault either physical or sexual, in their lifetimes. The definition of the terms included things like pushing and shoving, slapping, ass-grabbing, etc. I would wager a similar survey of men would have found similar numbers.

But then I guess that's not wives.

Do you believe over 60% of Canadian men support beating spouses? Yes or no.

Is sexism as bad in Canada as in "Muslim countries"? Well, for the upteenth time, there's no such thing as Muslim Countries.

Bullshit.

Is sexism as bad in Canada as Saudi Arabia? Hell no. But Canada has only had a female Prime Minister as a result of Kim Campbell being appointed to the role, while Muslims Countries have elected female leaders. So there's that.

Benazir Bhutto was the PM of Pakistan. Are you going to suggest sexism is better in Pakistan than in Canada? Your use of female political leaders as an indication of quality of life of and sexism towards women is ludicrous in this context. You admit sexism is worse in Saudi Arabia than in Canada, as if this is some sort of abnormality. Suppose you find me a Muslim nation where sexism ISN'T worse than in Canada.

[Argus]

So when people are going on about the filthy, evil barbaric Muslims, they just look foolish when thre are 1.6 billion of them, most peaceful, many the targets of this sectarian violence. That's why those commentators are called racists or more accurately bigots.

Hmm, so when I see that 81% of Egyptians favour stoning adulterers I'm failing to be properly thoughtful about how peaceful is their nature, and when I see that 64% believe anyone who tries to leave Islam should be executed, it's merely my racism which is at play in disapproving of their 'cultural' beliefs, right? And when a complex survey shows 74% of the people in the middle east and north Africa want Sharia law, that's just some sort of cultural coincidence.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

[Michael Hardner]

No, in fact, you have failed to do so.

We have seen that the country of origin has an effect of 10X on the result. That's more than significant.

[waldo]

Hmm, so when I see that 81% of Egyptians favour stoning adulterers I'm failing to be properly thoughtful about how peaceful is their nature, and when I see that 64% believe anyone who tries to leave Islam should be executed, it's merely my racism which is at play in disapproving of their 'cultural' beliefs, right? And when a complex survey shows 74% of the people in the middle east and north Africa want Sharia law, that's just some sort of cultural coincidence.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

one particular MLW member here has been quite liberally sprinking his posts across an assortment of threads with a reference to that Pew Poll... a poll that has signficant scrutiny towards it given it's methodology, sampling variations/limitations, it's presumptive reliance on the false premise that 'sharia law' means the same thing across all Muslim countries, that it didn't screen to ensure all participants were, with certainty, in fact Muslim, etc.. Apparently, for example, notwithstanding all the critical review of methodology, polling 1800 Indonesians and labeling that one-off as a definitive assessment of 200 millions Indonesians... and then having that become the internet's defacto summary assessment on Muslim Indonesians, that doesnt' raise any questioning/uncertainty by some around here.

[Argus]

Got anything better? No? Then you have nothing to contribute.

[waldo]

if you spent a portion of your time on actually scrutinizing that poll (as many have), you might be more reserved in drawing reference to it as often as you do.

[Argus]

We have seen that the country of origin has an effect of 10X on the result. That's more than significant.

Aside from the stans in central Asia and the smaller Muslim areas in Europe the significance is not great. Throughout South and southeast asia, africa and the middle east, where the massive bulk of Muslims live, the results show extremely high numbers supporting retrograde social beliefs including support for Sharia law and the death penalty for leaving Islam for blasphemy, and for adultery.

What we do see is that the most consistently retrograde views come from Muslims in that core of Islam which stretches from North Africa through to Pakistan. As I've said, when exposed to and challenged by outside views these violent ideas seem to suffer, and so it's not surprising that they are worst where almost everyone is a Muslim, where no one is questioning these beliefs.

Still, while I'm not surprised at the numbers from places like Afghanistan and Pakistan it is kind of disappointing to see the numbers not much better in Egypt.

[Argus]

if you spent a portion of your time on actually scrutinizing that poll (as many have), you might be more reserved in drawing reference to it as often as you do.

Really? Well, suppose you tell me what's wrong with it, then, as you've apparently spent considerable efforts in that regard.

It's not like the survey is the least bit out of line with previous polls and surveys done.

Here, perhaps you could find some more favourable polls and surveys of Muslim attitudes.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Edited October 12, 2014 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Aside from the stans in central Asia and the smaller Muslim areas in Europe the significance is not great.

So you have decided here, at the outset, to remove the data that hurts your argument the most ?

As I've said, when exposed to and challenged by outside views these violent ideas seem to suffer, and so it's not surprising that they are worst where almost everyone is a Muslim, where no one is questioning these beliefs.

Ok then. We've established that engaging with backwards views helps to change them. This means that Muslims will integrate into Canada eventually just as every other human culture has.

Still, while I'm not surprised at the numbers from places like Afghanistan and Pakistan it is kind of disappointing to see the numbers not much better in Egypt.

They will get better with time.

[Argus]

Ok then. We've established that engaging with backwards views helps to change them. This means that Muslims will integrate into Canada eventually just as every other human culture has.

Probably, but it will take longer, and a continuing stream of newcomers, most of which come from the most retrograde areas, will certainly delay that. It doesn't help that as far as I'm aware ALL Muslim religious authorities in Canada, ie, imams and mullahs, are from outside Canada and are educated in Islam outside Canada, generally in those retrograde areas. Saudi Arabia, in particular, delights in furnishing such people, and in training them for no cost. They're even willing to build you a mosque for them to preach in.

[waldo]

Really? Well, suppose you tell me what's wrong with it, then, as you've apparently spent considerable efforts in that regard.

It's not like the survey is the least bit out of line with previous polls and surveys done.

I already gave you a sampling of critical review on that poll

[Argus]

I already gave you a sampling of critical review on that poll

Uncited, just mumbling under your name. What serious group questions the numbers? They are similar to the numbers in many other polls, including the previous Pew Research poll done three years earlier.

[waldo]

Uncited, just mumbling under your name. What serious group questions the numbers? They are similar to the numbers in many other polls, including the previous Pew Research poll done three years earlier.

riddle me this: the poll assumes a single meaning of Sharia across the world-wide Muslim complement, country-by-country... you've personally made reference to that particular nugget several times. Is it your understanding that single meaning poll summary assessment is accurate and representative?