cybercoma Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Is there anything about the laws and cultures of Muslim countries which causes you to suspect a wide divergence between that and the survey? Probably the fact that there's as much variation between Muslim countries as there is with Muslim countries and non-Muslim countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Probably the fact that there's as much variation between Muslim countries as there is with Muslim countries and non-Muslim countries. No, there actually isn't. Let's have a look at one way Islam affects the cultural value set of its followers. Muhammed married Aisha when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. This has influenced his followers to this day, in that child marriage is, if not routine certainly not uncommon in the Muslim world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Let's have a look at one way Islam affects the cultural value set of its followers. Back to the 'holy books' argument, eh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest_in_the_Bible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Back to the 'holy books' argument, eh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest_in_the_Bible And is incest accepted in any Christian country? In fact, isn't the bible fairly explicit in condemning incest? It's one of the commandments. I don't see how this comparison works for you, frankly. Edited October 17, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 And is incest accepted in any Christian country? In fact, isn't the bible fairly explicit in condemning incest? It's one of the commandments. I don't see how this comparison works for you, frankly. Seems to be perfectly acceptable in some Christian polygamist sects.But I don't expect you to recognize that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 And is incest accepted in any Christian country? And so the circular argument progresses... You use the holy books to explain why a certain culture is damaged, in your view, but when other holy books are shown to have similarly damaged excerpts it goes back to "our culture doesn't accept that". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 It also influences the whole damn bunch to be highly intolerant of non-Muslims, and to believe the defense of and spread of Islam by any means is acceptable. That's one of the reasons so many in the Muslim world sympathized with Osama bin Laden, and why so many believe it's perfectly acceptable to execute anyone who tries to abandon Islam. How many peaceful, tolerant muslims would you need to talk to before retracting such a statement? Have you ever travelled to a country where Islam was practiced by a significant percentage of the population? (I almost wrote muslim country) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Islam contributes to violence in the same way Christianity contributes to homophobia. We grant elevated importance to ideas considered to be the wishes of a god. Thus people believing their god hates homosexuals or their god wants them to punish blasphemers and apostates feel justified in carrying out violent or discriminatory actions. “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire In the last 200 years, I see no evidence that the absence of religious beleifs results in a more rational and tolerant society. How many Christian homosexuals would you need to meet before changing this view of yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 How many Christian homosexuals would you need to meet before changing this view of yours? Hmmm, let's see if I can help you spot the hole in your logic. Read this analogous statement and see if you can spot the flaw: How many smokers without lung cancer will you have to meet before concluding that cigarettes do not cause lung cancer? I know one Christian homosexual woman quite well. However, it doesn't change the fact that religious views, including those of Christians and Muslims, are used to promote and condone homophobia. She has many painful tales of Christianity being used to justify hateful comments directed towards her. Sadly, some even by family members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Seems to be perfectly acceptable in some Christian polygamist sects.But I don't expect you to recognize that. You mean the kind of sects that are unaccepted in society, and which the rest of society ignores and often arrests? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 And so the circular argument progresses... You use the holy books to explain why a certain culture is damaged, in your view, but when other holy books are shown to have similarly damaged excerpts it goes back to "our culture doesn't accept that". What I said was that incest is actually explicitly banned by the bible. Did Jesus Christ ever take a six year old slave girl as his wife? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 What I said was that incest is actually explicitly banned by the bible. Did Jesus Christ ever take a six year old slave girl as his wife? No, but Lot offered up his daughters to be gang raped by strangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) How many peaceful, tolerant muslims would you need to talk to before retracting such a statement? I'm sure there are lots of peaceful, tolerant Muslims. I'm sure that there are lots of Egyptians who don't believe in female genital mutilation, notwithstanding the fact that over 90% of Egyptian girls are subjected to it. Edited October 19, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 What I said was that incest is actually explicitly banned by the bible. Did Jesus Christ ever take a six year old slave girl as his wife? Stoning is also prescribed in the bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Slavery is acceptable in the bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Stoning is also prescribed in the bible. You do understand that the problem lies not with what is written in what book, but rather, what the people reading the book do about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 You do understand that the problem lies not with what is written in what book, but rather, what the people reading the book do about it? The problem is that some people believe the ideas written in the book are somehow special or of elevated importance. It's hard to change the mind of someone who has been force fed a story from birth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 You do understand that the problem lies not with what is written in what book, but rather, what the people reading the book do about it? This is why I say it's a circular argument. The history, the past, the holy books are brought in to explain the difference between Islam and Christianity today - ostensibly to discount cultural/national differences. But the ancient books all have similar passages, ie. draconian punishments and so on. When this is pointed out, then the argument goes back to where it was before the books were brought into it, ie. saying that this religious group is different than others today. But that's not why the holy books were brought into the argument in the first place. The argument circles back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Hmmm, let's see if I can help you spot the hole in your logic. Read this analogous statement and see if you can spot the flaw: How many smokers without lung cancer will you have to meet before concluding that cigarettes do not cause lung cancer? I know one Christian homosexual woman quite well. However, it doesn't change the fact that religious views, including those of Christians and Muslims, are used to promote and condone homophobia. She has many painful tales of Christianity being used to justify hateful comments directed towards her. Sadly, some even by family members. Your statement is not analogous because smoking is a proven cause of cancer. There is no such proof that Christianity contributes to homophobia. Some Christians are homophobic. Some biblical texts are homophobic. Some Christians and texts are incluive and tolerant. Which influences are stronger? Do proffessional sports organizations contribute to homophobia? Does rap music contrubute to homophobia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 If Christianity contributes to Homophobia then what the Islam contribute to Homophobia? How many Islamic countries ban Homosexuality outright? The media pays attention to Uganda though, not the Muslim nations where people would get killed for being openly gay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I'm sure there are lots of peaceful, tolerant Muslims. Then maybe you should stop speaking of these people as if they were beneath you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 If Christianity contributes to Homophobia then what the Islam contribute to Homophobia? How many Islamic countries ban Homosexuality outright? The media pays attention to Uganda though, not the Muslim nations where people would get killed for being openly gay. Islam is also a source of homophobia, misogyny, violence, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Your statement is not analogous because smoking is a proven cause of cancer. There is no such proof that Christianity contributes to homophobia. really? Some Christians are homophobic. Some biblical texts are homophobic. Some Christians and texts are incluive and tolerant. Which influences are stronger? It depends on the brand of christianity. Sometimes the same religious folk that collect food for the hungry also fight to discriminate against women and homosexuals. They do what they are told their god considers to be good. Do proffessional sports organizations contribute to homophobia? Does rap music contrubute to homophobia? Yes and yes. Locker room talk and rap music seem to be areas where we still tolerate bad behaviour. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. Though, they are changing. These cultural anachronisms aren't as strong as religion though. People get a minor thrill out of telling taboo gay jokes while showering with a group of men. Ironic, I know. However, with religion people feel they are following the wishes of a magic, all knowing, creator. That's what makes the religious influence so powerful and yet so ridiculous. As always, the problem lies in our granting these beliefs elevated status and consideration. Edited October 20, 2014 by Mighty AC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) This is why I say it's a circular argument. The history, the past, the holy books are brought in to explain the difference between Islam and Christianity today - ostensibly to discount cultural/national differences. But the ancient books all have similar passages, ie. draconian punishments and so on. When this is pointed out, then the argument goes back to where it was before the books were brought into it, ie. saying that this religious group is different than others today. The bible was written on the life of an itinerant prophet who preached the love of God. Did he ever have a job? The Koran is the tale of a warrior prince who converted masses of people to Islam by war and slaughter. You don't get how these would be rather different stories? There are a lot of stories in the bible and the koran which can be bloodthirsty. But did Jesus Christ ever wipe out towns and villages? Did he have slaves? Did he take little girls to his bed? Did he cut people's heads off? Muhammad did all these things. You don't understand how those who worship Jesus and those who worship Muhammad would have different philosophies of life? Yes, yes, I know, technically you don't worship either of them. But they are taken as paragons of the behaviour expected of their followers. Jesus largely preached peace and love, while Muhammad demanded total submission or death. Edited October 20, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Then maybe you should stop speaking of these people as if they were beneath you. I'm speaking of their demonstrably backward cultures and values as a people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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