Bill Maher Destroys The Liberal Utopian Vision of Islam

[Boges]

Influences how? Everything influences everything else. That doesn't really say much.

For example, the burka isn't in the Quran. But people can use the call for modesty in the Quran to subjugate women by enforcing a dress code where they can't even show their face in public. That's how the religion influences the culture. But it's not the religion to blame.

We see the same in the West where a single line from the old testament about men lying together can be used to oppose gay rights at every turn even though the founders of the religion don't mention homosexuality at all.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

Influences how? Everything influences everything else. That doesn't really say much.

It's like if you tried picking two Christians from different cultures and different ethnic backgrounds and trying to say they're the same on some level. It doesn't make sense.

[cybercoma]

It's like if you tried picking two Christians from different cultures and different ethnic backgrounds and trying to say they're the same on some level. It doesn't make sense.

You could pick two Christians from Canada and say they're the same on some level and it might not be the case. Take any of the Ananbaptists from around the country and a born-again Christian. I'm thinking you might find more similarities with any random Muslim from Canada and the Born-Again Christian, than the Christians would have with each other.

[The_Squid]

Christian Arabs? There are none left. They've all been killed or run out of the Middle East by Muslims.

What an ignorant thing to say.

This might be a lot to ask.... but before you type stupid things, do a Google search. Or even Bing!!

The Copts constitute the largest population of Christians in the Middle East, numbering between 6,000,000 and 11,000,000.

Jordanian Christians are the among the oldest Christian community in the world^[43] Christians have resided in Jordan since the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, early in the 1st century AD. Jordanian Christians now number at about 400,000 people, or 6% of the population of approximately 6,500,000, which is lower than the near 20% in the early 20th century. This is largely due to lower birth rates in comparison with Muslims and to a strong influx of Muslim immigrants from neighboring countries. Also, a larger percent of Christians compared to Muslims emigrate to western countries, resulting in a large Jordanian Christian diaspora.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Christians

[Argus]

Influences how? Everything influences everything else. That doesn't really say much.

Islam, for those who practice it, is filled with rules of behaviour and responsibility, with laws governments must impose, the punishments for them and how those governments should be ordered. How could it NOT heavily influence the cultures of its followers?

[Mighty AC]

Islam, for those who practice it, is filled with rules of behaviour and responsibility, with laws governments must impose, the punishments for them and how those governments should be ordered. How could it NOT heavily influence the cultures of its followers?

Of course religion influences its followers. I don't understand this ridiculous game being played by Michael and Cyber. I'm guessing that it stems from a desire to combat discrimination; however, acknowledging the fact that Islam (or any religion) is causing harm does not mean we are painting all followers with the same brush.

[cybercoma]

Of course it does and there's 1.6 BILLION of them, the vast majority of whom are peaceful. The argument you and others are making is that Islam influences people to be violent. Well, most Muslims are not violent.

Edited October 15, 2014 by cybercoma

[Guest]

And that's exactly right. Islam influences the non violent ones to be non violent, and the violent ones to be violent.

Unless it's a toothache or something...

[Argus]

And that's exactly right. Islam influences the non violent ones to be non violent, and the violent ones to be violent.

It also influences the whole damn bunch to be highly intolerant of non-Muslims, and to believe the defense of and spread of Islam by any means is acceptable. That's one of the reasons so many in the Muslim world sympathized with Osama bin Laden, and why so many believe it's perfectly acceptable to execute anyone who tries to abandon Islam.

[Mighty AC]

Of course it does and there's 1.6 BILLION of them, the vast majority of whom are peaceful. The argument you and others are making is that Islam influences people to be violent. Well, most Muslims are not violent.

Religion influences people to be many things, including charitable, violent, racist, kind, homophobic, and misogynistic. I think it's fair to say that Christianity is responsible for a lot of homophobia in North America, despite the fact that many churches endorse equality. It's also fair to say that Islam is responsible for a lot of violence and misogyny in the Middle East, despite the fact that many Muslims are peaceful. It's even fair to say that Islam is currently responsible for more violence and misogyny than other religions. It would be wrong to say Muslims in general are violent or misogynistic.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Mighty AC

[Mighty AC]

It also influences the whole damn bunch to be highly intolerant of non-Muslims, and to believe the defense of and spread of Islam by any means is acceptable.

This is the kind of BS statement that makes sense to condemn. The whole damn bunch? Would it be also fair to say that all old, white men are racist, discriminatory, asswaffles?

Edited October 15, 2014 by Mighty AC

[Argus]

This is the kind of BS statement that makes sense to condemn. The whole damn bunch? Would it be also fair to say that all old, white men are racist, discriminatory, asswaffles?

Do 60% - 70% - 80% of old white men think it's proper to execute anyone who decides to abandon Christianity? Do they support wife beating? Do they support the death penalty for blasphemy? The attitudes of Muslims taken as a whole are often primitively violent in terms of their intolerance and their acceptance of punishment for anyone who deviates from what they consider to be acceptable personal behaviour. And those attitudes are inspired by the teachings of Islam.

[cybercoma]

And that's exactly right. Islam influences the non violent ones to be non violent, and the violent ones to be violent.

Unless it's a toothache or something...

so then the point is completely banal. Got it.

[cybercoma]

Do 60% - 70% - 80% of old white men think it's proper to execute anyone who decides to abandon Christianity? Do they support wife beating? Do they support the death penalty for blasphemy? The attitudes of Muslims taken as a whole are often primitively violent in terms of their intolerance and their acceptance of punishment for anyone who deviates from what they consider to be acceptable personal behaviour. And those attitudes are inspired by the teachings of Islam.

Was that a survey of 1.6 billion Muslims? Was it even generalizable to most Muslims?

[WestCoastRunner]

Do 60% - 70% - 80% of old white men think it's proper to execute anyone who decides to abandon Christianity? Do they support wife beating? Do they support the death penalty for blasphemy? The attitudes of Muslims taken as a whole are often primitively violent in terms of their intolerance and their acceptance of punishment for anyone who deviates from what they consider to be acceptable personal behaviour. And those attitudes are inspired by the teachings of Islam.

Let's compare your percentages of Muslims to Canadian men who are most probably not Muslim but who are violent towards women:

• Half of Canadian women have survived at least one incident of sexual or physical violence
• 29% of Canadian women have been assaulted by a spouse
• On average, every six days a woman in Canada is killed by her intimate partner
• every minute of every day, a woman or child in Canada is being sexually assaulted. Very often, sexual assaults are repeated on the same woman or child by the same offender.
• 43% of women in one study reported at least one incident of unwanted sexual touching, forced or attempted forced sexual intercourse, or being forced to perform other acts of a sexual nature before the age of 16
• Spousal homicide accounts for one third (30%) of murders of women over 65
• minimum of one million Canadian children have witnessed violence against their mothers by their fathers or father figure
• 40% of women with disabilities have been raped, abused or assaulted. More than half (53%) of women who had been disabled from birth or early childhood had been abused
• Violence continues into adulthood, ranging from 48% to up to 90% of Aboriginal women being assaulted at the hands of their partners

Worldwide, an estimated 40% to over 70% of homicides of women are committed by intimate partners, often in the context of an abusive relationship. It seems to me that Canadian men contribute to this figure alongside that whole dam bunch.

Where is the outcry from Argus on these Canadian men? Should not the whole dam bunch be judged just as harshly?

[Guest]

so then the point is completely banal. Got it.

It is what it is. How interesting you find it is up to you.

[cybercoma]

It is what it is. How interesting you find it is up to you.

It says nothing. It's the definition of a banal argument,

[Guest]

And yet, it's so true. Go figure.

[cybercoma]

And yet, it's so true. Go figure.

Of course. That's the definition of a banal argument. It doesn't say anything. It's not an argument. It's not a position. It makes no claim that can be reasonably refuted by anyone. "People are influenced both positively and negatively by stuff." That's nice. Who cares?

And in any case, that's not the argument either Michael Hardner or myself have been addressing. The argument people are making is that "Islam causes violence." That's something debatable. That's an argument that can be asserted and supported with evidence. "Islam does and doesn't cause violence" says nothing.

Edited October 16, 2014 by cybercoma

[Mighty AC]

The argument people are making is that "Islam causes violence." That's something debatable. That's an argument that can be asserted and supported with evidence. "Islam does and doesn't cause violence" says nothing.

Islam contributes to violence in the same way Christianity contributes to homophobia. We grant elevated importance to ideas considered to be the wishes of a god. Thus people believing their god hates homosexuals or their god wants them to punish blasphemers and apostates feel justified in carrying out violent or discriminatory actions.

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire

[Guest]

Of course. That's the definition of a banal argument. It doesn't say anything. It's not an argument. It's not a position. It makes no claim that can be reasonably refuted by anyone. "People are influenced both positively and negatively by stuff." That's nice. Who cares?

And in any case, that's not the argument either Michael Hardner or myself have been addressing. The argument people are making is that "Islam causes violence." That's something debatable. That's an argument that can be asserted and supported with evidence. "Islam does and doesn't cause violence" says nothing.

The argument I thought you were making was that it was wrong to tar all Muslims with a brush used to describe only some. The argument that Islam is open to interpretation, and that in some cases it influences Muslims to be peaceful civilized citizens, and in others, it influences them to be barbaric murderous savages, seems to be in agreement with that. We agree!

Edited October 16, 2014 by bcsapper

[Moonlight Graham]

A PhD in Sociology (focusing on the history of religion) takes on Maher's comments (and CNN reporters):

http://youtu.be/PzusSqcotDw

[cybercoma]

I posted this in the thread already.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23918-bill-maher-destroys-the-liberal-utopian-vision-of-islam/?p=1000868

Edited October 16, 2014 by cybercoma

[Argus]

Was that a survey of 1.6 billion Muslims? Was it even generalizable to most Muslims?

Is there anything about the laws and cultures of Muslim countries which causes you to suspect a wide divergence between that and the survey?

[Argus]

Islam contributes to violence in the same way Christianity contributes to homophobia.

The main representative of Christianity, when asked about homosexuals, smiled, spread his arms and said "Who am I to judge?"

Christians might disapprove of homosexuals, but there are few who will suggest they ought to be executed - as is called for in the Koran. Muslims are, as a group, FAR more homophobic than Christians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLbltj-tD1Y

Edited October 17, 2014 by Argus