Bill Maher Destroys The Liberal Utopian Vision of Islam

[cybercoma]

His initial beef was with liberals who seem afraid to call Muslims out for their behaviour

The problem are the people that lack the intelligence to see that there aren't "Muslim countries" as a group doing the exact same things as a group. As Aslan said, some Muslim countries like Indonesia and Turkey have had female leaders, whereas the United States has not and Canada only did because Brian Mulroney retired. Some people talk about Female Genital Mutilation as an Islamic problem, when it's a Central African problem as he points out. Two countries with the highest rates of FGM are majority Christian. So the point is to hold countries accountable for their barbaric laws, like stoning victims of rape because they're women and married, like not allowing women to leave their homes without a man in tow, like not allowing women to vote or drive or have any sort of autonomy, like butchering Christians or Muslims that are in the wrong sect. Hold those people and groups accountable for those particular barbaric acts. The problem is when incredibly stupid people say "Muslim countries" this and "Muslim countries" that. It isn't "Muslim countries" anything. That narrative is bigoted and quite frankly stupid as Aslan says. It ignores the millions upon millions of peaceful Muslims around the world. It ignores the fact that Muslims are being slaughtered by other Muslims in these conflicts. It ignores the fact that it's not the religion, but it's people using the religion to subjugate others and push their political goals on others.

So you say there are Liberals who refuse to call Muslims out for their atrocities and you're full of crap. What Liberals refuse to do is deal in bigoted absolutes that ignore the reality that there are millions of peaceful Muslims all around the world. I don't know any liberals that would support Saudi Arabian laws or stoning women who were raped by a stranger because they were married and that's adultery. I don't know any liberals who would say women shouldn't vote or go to school. I don't know any liberals who think it's wonderful that ISIL is kidnapping journalists and innocent people and lopping off their heads. What they won't do is engage in this fear mongering idiocy that says this is what Islam is. Because there are numerous countries where Islam is not those things and Azlan gave some of those examples.

[Guest]

Azlan said Islam is not a religion of peace. Good for him. You say it's not the religion, but the people using the religion that matters. It's never the religion. Religion is an abstract that takes interpretation to give it form. It's always the people using the religion because that's all there is. The fact remains that there are millions of Muslims around the world who think that death for blasphemy is a good thing. They live in Pakistan, The UK, Belgium, Afghanistan, Sweden, America, Canada, etc. That you think that pointing that out is bigoted means you're full of crap.

Edit> Just to be clear: There are also millions of peaceful Muslims in all those countries as well. I don't see how that makes a difference.

Edited October 5, 2014 by bcsapper

[Argus]

The problem are the people that lack the intelligence to see that there aren't "Muslim countries" as a group doing the exact same things as a group.

Complete nonsense. We can see from the Pew research survey that while there are some variations in thinking on a the subjects posed to Muslims the bulk of them evidence a great deal of similarity in their social backwardness. You would have us believe that the fact the majority of Pakistanis and the Majority of Egyptians and the majority of Nigerian Muslims who believe anyone who leaves the religion should be executed has nothing to do with Islam at all, but are some sort of local 'cultural' issue.

Let's not even get into the existence of the OIC and how it tends to vote together on so many issues.

The problem is when incredibly stupid people say "Muslim countries" this and "Muslim countries" that. It isn't "Muslim countries" anything. That narrative is bigoted and quite frankly stupid as Aslan says.

We also see from the Pew research that the majority of Muslims embrace Sharia law, which includes stonings of adulterers and, by the way, homosexuals. That's true across the Muslim world. Yet the desperate bleeding heart hand-wringers will do almost anything to avoid any sort of critical suggestion that Muslims are one iota less sophisticated or culturally enlightened than those horrible Christians they all despise.

[cybercoma]

Then why don't they stone adulterers in EVERY Muslim country? Why don't we get Muslims in the West stoning people on their own and trying to hide it? You want to attribute these things to Islam when countless Muslim people have come out and said that this is not Sharia Law and this is not Islam.

But that's cool, I'm sure the guy who hates Muslims and thinks he's far better than them can accurately define their religion for them.

[Bob Macadoo]

.But that's cool, I'm sure the guy who hates Muslims and thinks he's far better than them can accurately define their religion for them.

I think he has a business card that says just that.....those crazy Kinko guys.....they'll print anything.

[Guest]

Then why don't they stone adulterers in EVERY Muslim country? Why don't we get Muslims in the West stoning people on their own and trying to hide it? You want to attribute these things to Islam when countless Muslim people have come out and said that this is not Sharia Law and this is not Islam.

But that's cool, I'm sure the guy who hates Muslims and thinks he's far better than them can accurately define their religion for them.

Isn't that exactly what we are saying? Some Muslims think it's okay to do certain things, and others don't. Isn't that exactly what the argument is?

Can we all agree that we don't like people who stone other people because of their romantic activities and we don't mind people who don't?

Can we all agree that we don't like people who think that Blasphemy and Apostasy are sins punishable by anything at all and we don't mind people who don't?

Can we all agree that we don't like people who would have the law of the land derived from religious principles and we don't mind people who wouldn't?

Can we all agree that we don't like people who won't let women drive and we don't mind people who will?

It's just not that difficult.

It doesn't have to be Muslims. I don't like Christians who think it's okay to make homosexuality punishable by death or imprisonment. I don't like those who think that Albinos should be put to death. (Not sure what religion they are) I don't like those who would deny me the right to die when I want to because their stupid God says life is sacred. (or something like that)

But there's just so many more Muslims with radical unlikable beliefs right now. One just has to look at any news outlet, pretty much any time.

How come it's such a bad thing to say so?

Edited October 6, 2014 by bcsapper

[Mighty AC]

It's not a bad thing to say, and thanks for saying it.

I know progressives get tired of conservative christian apologists, but c'mon my fellow liberals don't overcompensate by trying to pretend they are currently, equally evil. Theft and murder are certainly both crimes though they are not worthy of equal scorn or punishment. Similarly, we are certainly better off without both Christianity and Islam but it is completely unreasonable to pretend that one is not more dangerous than the other, at this point in time.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Mighty AC

[-1=e^ipi]

It ignores the fact that it's not the religion, but it's people using the religion to subjugate others and push their political goals on others.

And you ignore the fact that there are very very strong theological justifications for the actions of various non-liberal positions in Islam. Things like death for apostasy, death for adultery, death for blasphemy, etc.

Yes muslim-majority countries are very diverse and should not be generalized under the term 'muslim countries'. And yes, people should recognize the diversity of different forms of Islam.

However, that doesn't somehow justify ignoring the role of Islam in extremism and lack of freedom around the world. And it certainly doesn't justify claims like 'Islamic extremism has nothing to do with Islam' or 'ISIS are not even muslim' that idiot cultural-relativists like David Cameron and Barrack Obama keep claiming.

[-1=e^ipi]

Then why don't they stone adulterers in EVERY Muslim country?

Because 1. not every Muslim majority country follows Sharia and 2. not all forms of Islam advocate for the stoning of adulterers. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a strong theological justification for stoning adulterers in Islam and that doesn't mean that the stoning of adulterers in various muslim majority countries has 'nothing to do with Islam'.

Why don't we get Muslims in the West stoning people on their own and trying to hide it?

We do. It's called honour killings. Look it up.

You want to attribute these things to Islam when countless Muslim people have come out and said that this is not Sharia Law and this is not Islam.

There are numerous reasons why various Muslims may claim that death for homosexuality is not Sharia and not Islam: 1. Taqiyya, 2. Many Muslims do not understand their own religion, 3. There are different versions of Islam.

But that's cool, I'm sure the guy who hates Muslims and thinks he's far better than them can accurately define their religion for them.

Ad hominem. What Islam does and does not advocate can derived independently by looking at the Islamic texts such as the Quran. Why not read the Quran for yourself rather than continue your dogmatic position that Islamic extremism has nothing to do with Islam.

[WestCoastRunner]

We do. It's called honour killings. Look it up.

Here in the western world it's called violence against women. No difference. Look it up.

[Bonam]

We do. It's called honour killings. Look it up.

Here in the western world it's called violence against women. No difference. Look it up.

No difference?

[Michael Hardner]

64% of Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt support the death penalty for leaving Islam.

If you start out looking for a reason to not like Muslims, you will find one. So it is with almost any people.

[Guest]

What if you just don't like the ones who give you a reason?

[Michael Hardner]

What if you just don't like the ones who give you a reason?

That's only human.

[cybercoma]

It's pretty bad when Cracked of all websites debunks the nonsense that comes off some people's keyboards here.

Five Ridiculous Things You Probably Believe about Islam

1. If you're Muslim woman, you have to wear the veil.
2. The Founding Fathers would have never tolerated this Muslim nonsense.
3. "Muslim" Equals "Arab"
4. Western cultures are far more humane than the bloodthirsty Muslims
5. Islam is stuck in the Dark Ages

http://www.cracked.com/article_18911_5-ridiculous-things-you-probably-believe-about-islam.html

We've seen every single one of these these trotted out here as arguments from our esteemed posters, except for the American specific "Founding Fathers" one. Cracked addresses each one of them.

Edited October 6, 2014 by cybercoma

[Boges]

We've seen every single one of these these trotted out here as arguments from our esteemed posters,

I'd like a cite for that.

I've never heard anyone use 2.

I think it's apparent to most people that the problems with Muslims are largely cultural and not really direct edicts from the Quran.

What troubles people in the west is idea of normalizing Sharia Law. Many aspects of Sharia Law fly wholeheartedly in the face of the values of Liberal Democracies and anyone that shows some acceptance of it should be rejected.

It's not racist to reject ten tents of Sharia Law because, as mentioned, it's used by people of many races and cultures.

[Argus]

If you start out looking for a reason to not like Muslims, you will find one. So it is with almost any people.

How is this relevant? I was responding to someone who suggested that you could barely fill a stadium with those who believed apostates should be executed. According to Pew Research it's actually 64% of the population.

[Argus]

Then why don't they stone adulterers in EVERY Muslim country? Why don't we get Muslims in the West stoning people on their own and trying to hide it? You want to attribute these things to Islam when countless Muslim people have come out and said that this is not Sharia Law and this is not Islam.

But that's cool, I'm sure the guy who hates Muslims and thinks he's far better than them can accurately define their religion for them.

So you're going to simply ignore the Pew Research cite, right?

Edited October 6, 2014 by Argus

[The_Squid]

So you're going to simply ignore the Pew Research cite, right?

Do you think people will give answers to pollsters that don't necessarily reflect their real views? Maybe as a protest... or because they don't like polls...?

Do you trust the results from polls done in Canada?

[Shady]

So you're going to simply ignore the Pew Research cite, right?

They prefer to keep their heads in the sand. Pun intended.

[Boges]

Do you think people will give answers to pollsters that don't necessarily reflect their real views? Maybe as a protest... or because they don't like polls...?

Do you trust the results from polls done in Canada?

Not really but let's say the actual numbers are 50%. It's still crazy.

[The_Squid]

Not really but let's say the actual numbers are 50%. It's still crazy.

How do you know the actual numbers then. What if it's actually 10%?

[Boges]

How do you know the actual numbers then. What if it's actually 10%?

So you're just ignoring a poll then? It says something bad about an Islamic nation, it must be wrong?

This country did elect the Muslim Brotherhood, so I doubt the number is 10%.

[The_Squid]

So you're just ignoring a poll then? It says something bad about an Islamic nation, it must be wrong?

This country did elect the Muslim Brotherhood, so I doubt the number is 10%.

So you're paying attention to a poll then? It says something bad about Muslims, so it must be right?

I didn't say anything about my views on the poll. I just find it hypocritical when some people (conservatives) rail against polls, but then are all over this one.

I don't know the methodology or how representative this polling is of the countries that were surveyed. Since I don't know, I think I will simply ignore the poll. The results are pretty meaningless to me either way. I already know that extremist Muslims are bad people that suppress women and want to chop off either hands or heads for pretty minor offences.

But I don't mind pointing out the hypocrisy of some people who now love polls!

[Boges]

Fair enough. How about the election of the MB. Is that a poll that you can pay attention too?