Ferguson unrest

On Guard for Thee · August 22, 2014

They are trained to do lots of things, including firearms safety, marksmanship, and force escalation. I can think of several post assault scenarios that would still be met with lethal force even with hands raised up, if only because the perp was not complying with instructions and could readily assault an officer or others again. We don't know exactly what happened between Wilson and Brown...not even those who pretend they do.

Maybe you just made a typo here. Cops are actually trained at force DE-escalation. Maybe this cop missed that class.

Black Dog · August 22, 2014

It would seem that we have elevated the police over the rights of other citizens, no? I hear no outrage and also silent are those who would argue for absolute right of self-defense from mortal threat. While it may be argued that this is necessary to maintain control in a civil society, I could argue that historical increases in crime coupled with rising police presence would prove this to be patently and provably false.

I have to digest this post, but you touch on something that bothered me here in the Yatim shooting and re-emerged with the Powell killing a few days ago and that's the notion that a cop's life is inherently more valuable than those of the people they are sworn to protect. The whole notion that cops are allowed to resort to deadly force in certain situations rather than risk any harm to themselves seems completely ass backwards to me. As a law-abiding citizen, there's an expectation that a cop should put himself in harms way from a knife wielding crazy. But why doesn't the knife-wielding crazy get the same consideration? Are they not citizens entitled to at least some measure of protection, even if that means potential harm coming to the police?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Black Dog

BubberMiley · August 22, 2014

I'm waiting for the facts; the ballistics, the forensics and the witnesses. And, I'm pretty sure that will prove Wilson's side of the story.

I'm waiting too, but I'm pretty sure that I have no idea what actually happened. Unlike the people who are quite sure of what happened based on fake evidence and ingrained prejudice, but who are whining that I might venture to express an opinion at some point.

Hal 9000 · August 22, 2014

Quick hijack here, as the issue largely pertains to reasonable expectation of harm - i.e. self defense or defense of others perceived to be under mortal threat......

Say I was one of the people in Ferguson who'd had the weapon pointed at us by a man stating that he would kill us. Do we give up the right of self-defense in that case simply because the shooter is a cop??

If the reasonable expectation of threat does not also apply to threat from a civil servant, specifically a police officer, then by definition we have become a police state. How about if you point a shotgun in my face and state that "you're going to fucking kill me" and I shoot you dead, white or black, cop or thug?

It would seem that we have elevated the police over the rights of other citizens, no? I hear no outrage and also silent are those who would argue for absolute right of self-defense from mortal threat. While it may be argued that this is necessary to maintain control in a civil society, I could argue that historical increases in crime coupled with rising police presence would prove this to be patently and provably false.

Following this logic, why is there no discussion about the perceived threat on Mr. Brown's life? Does he forfeit rights of self-preservation simply because his assailant is a government gunman as opposed to a private gunman? I would ask if Mr. Brown had a real reason to act in self-defense, and given the principle of perceived threat I would feel him justified for opening fire on the officer in self defense.

It appears that the officer fired first, so any logical person would perceive this as a mortal threat on Mr. Brown's life. I for one do not abandon my right of self-preservation simply because my assailant is a civil servant, especially in a climate where murder by gov't employee is a known occasional occurrence.

I think that what we see here is a ridiculous level of what is considered "harm or harm's way".

The easy answers can be found in the Norway thread and in nearly all Wilson/Brown threads. Angel Dust,PCP, HIV, Needles...Yes, every time a cop takes down a suspect, there is a crowd that say's "well, he didn't have a gun but if he was on PCP...". Essentially, we've allowed the police and their lawyers to manipulate us into believing that their lives are in danger every time they stop a person. As I said before - the abuse excuse. I was afraid for my safety- so I shot him.

GostHacked · August 22, 2014

The new mantra of the left. 'Guilty until proven innocent.'

I thought that was the mantra of the right? I mean Neo-Cons are right wing... reaaaaallly right wing. And they hold that exact mentality.

But I will say again, this is not a left/right thing. This is both sides of the gov wanting to screw you over. Their differences are simply a ruse for the massed who do not pay attention. It's also for some MLW members.

Hal 9000 · August 22, 2014

I'm waiting too, but I'm pretty sure that I have no idea what actually happened. Unlike the people who are quite sure of what happened based on fake evidence and ingrained prejudice, but who are whining that I might venture to express an opinion at some point.

What we do know is that the star witness has already started "modifying" his story a great deal.

No, I don't think you'll express an opinion - you're not that type of poster. You're a drive-by and toss in a one liner type of poster.

BubberMiley · August 22, 2014

No, I don't think you'll express an opinion - you're not that type of poster.

Then why did you say I would convict the cop based on questionable testimony?

Hal 9000 · August 22, 2014

Then why did you say I would convict the cop based on questionable testimony?

I used the term "you guys" to speak to the group that has already cast Wilson as a racist and a murderer who shot a child with his hands up. A story from a bad witness that is now getting so debunked that it could derail the prosecution.

I assumed from your posting history that you had a particular bias.

Black Dog · August 22, 2014

I think that what we see here is a ridiculous level of what is considered "harm or harm's way".

The easy answers can be found in the Norway thread and in nearly all Wilson/Brown threads. Angel Dust,PCP, HIV, Needles...Yes, every time a cop takes down a suspect, there is a crowd that say's "well, he didn't have a gun but if he was on PCP...". Essentially, we've allowed the police and their lawyers to manipulate us into believing that their lives are in danger every time they stop a person. As I said before - the abuse excuse. I was afraid for my safety- so I shot him.

Jimbo: Boys, looky there. That there's a Rocky Mountain black bear …one of the few remaining of its kind. Isn't it beautiful… By God, it's coming right for us! [shoots it. It is hit and flips off the mound it was on.]

Stan: Hey, it wasn't coming right for us. It was just sitting there.

Jimbo: Shhh, not so loud. Now that there's just a technicality.

Kyle: What do you mean?

Jimbo: You see boys, the Democrats have passed a lot of laws trying to stop us from hunting.

Cartman: Democrats piss me off!

Jimbo: They say we can't shoot certain animals anymore, unless they're posing an immediate threat. Therefore, before we shoot somethin', we have to say 'It's coming right for us.'

Edited August 22, 2014 by Black Dog

Smallc · August 22, 2014

And sometimes it is coming right for you.

Black Dog · August 22, 2014

And sometimes it is coming right for you.

And sometimes "it" is a paranoid schizophrenic who is suffering delusions, but I guess that's a capital offense.

Black Dog · August 22, 2014

For comparison watch this. If that had happened in the states (and probably here), they would have shot this guy 15 seconds in.

Argus · August 22, 2014

That cops are often thin-skinned meatheads with delusions of grandeur who don't understand the limitations of their powers? Yes, that is a problem.

I think they understand it, but feel they're relatively immune to punishment when they violate those limitations.

Bodycams would help a great deal with this issue.

Argus · August 22, 2014

For comparison watch this. If that had happened in the states (and probably here), they would have shot this guy 15 seconds in.

The thing is, I saw several points early on where he could easily have killed a cop if he'd simply lunged at them. That cop who rolled the garbage can in on him, for example. If the guy had lunged over the top he could have put that machete in the cops throat. I don't know why they didn't have tazers, at least. I'm all in favor of non lethal means to subdue crazy people, but standing around with a short club and a little shield is NOT the way I would approve of. Rubber bullets, immobilizing foam, pepper spray, sure. But this was just... they had no idea what to do and no weapons to do it with. They're lucky none of them got stabbed.

Smallc · August 23, 2014

And sometimes "it" is a paranoid schizophrenic who is suffering delusions, but I guess that's a capital offense.

And sometimes, they still endanger your life.

jbg · August 23, 2014

If you're not doing anything illegal to justify the cops confronting you, you should be able to do that shit.

The best analogy would be cracking jokes in an airport about Hamas or Al Qaeda. While the content may not be exactly the same as joking about a gun or a bomb the result is the same.

jbg · August 23, 2014

For comparison watch this. If that had happened in the states (and probably here), they would have shot this guy 15 seconds in.

And sometimes, they still endanger your life.

I'm going to be a little bit politically incorrect and say that the life of a crazy person is not worth the life of a cop. When the madman attacked the Pieta with a hammer there were suggestions that the vandal could ethically have been taken down to protect the art.

eyeball · August 23, 2014

I think they understand it, but feel they're relatively immune to punishment when they violate those limitations.

Bodycams would help a great deal with this issue.

So would a net gun.

On Guard for Thee · August 23, 2014

If you didn't already think America was seriously ailing, have a look at this bunch. One of them serves the police force in St'Louis.

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

WestCoastRunner · August 23, 2014

Jimbo: Boys, looky there. That there's a Rocky Mountain black bear …one of the few remaining of its kind. Isn't it beautiful… By God, it's coming right for us! [shoots it. It is hit and flips off the mound it was on.]

Stan: Hey, it wasn't coming right for us. It was just sitting there.

Jimbo: Shhh, not so loud. Now that there's just a technicality.

Kyle: What do you mean?

Jimbo: You see boys, the Democrats have passed a lot of laws trying to stop us from hunting.

Cartman: Democrats piss me off!

Jimbo: They say we can't shoot certain animals anymore, unless they're posing an immediate threat. Therefore, before we shoot somethin', we have to say 'It's coming right for us.'

Brilliant.

WestCoastRunner · August 23, 2014

I'm going to be a little bit politically incorrect and say that the life of a crazy person is not worth the life of a cop. When the madman attacked the Pieta with a hammer there were suggestions that the vandal could ethically have been taken down to protect the art.

Suppose that crazy person was your brother/sister/wife/mom/dad who had gone off their meds. Was their life worth less than a cop?

Can you even define 'crazy'? What does crazy mean in your mind?

Edited August 23, 2014 by WestCoastRunner

Shady · August 23, 2014

Well, well, well...

The signs of easing tensions came as a family friend of the officer who fatally shot Brown came forward to offer a version of the incident with new details, saying that the officer suffered a fracture to his eye socket in a scuffle with the unarmed teenager before opening fire.

Hospital X-rays of the injury have been taken and will be shared with a grand jury that is weighing evidence to determine whether Officer Darren Wilson should be charged in the shooting, said the friend

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/police-officer-who-shot-michael-brown-suffered-fractured-eye-socket-friend-says/2014/08/21/177524ea-293c-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html?hpid=z1

X-rays of the fracture will be shared with the grand jury. Checkmate.

WestCoastRunner · August 23, 2014

And sometimes, they still endanger your life.

The majority of paranoid schizophrenics are not violent. Let's not start attacking patients with mental illness over this issue. That is a grave injustice to this form of mental illness. If you need to educate yourself on schizophrenia, perhaps you should review this website dedicated to educating the youth on mental illness.

http://youthseekingunderstanding.blogspot.ca/2012/04/schizophrenics-are-scary-are-they.html

bush_cheney2004 · August 23, 2014

Not good enough for the mob (here) so quick to indict Wilson for murder...they believe that petty criminals and thugs are still citizens with the right to assault police without fear of lethal force...just maybe some net guns, pepper spray, or sticky foam. [/sarcasm]

WestCoastRunner · August 23, 2014

Well, well, well...

The signs of easing tensions came as a family friend of the officer who fatally shot Brown came forward to offer a version of the incident with new details, saying that the officer suffered a fracture to his eye socket in a scuffle with the unarmed teenager before opening fire.

Hospital X-rays of the injury have been taken and will be shared with a grand jury that is weighing evidence to determine whether Officer Darren Wilson should be charged in the shooting, said the friend

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/police-officer-who-shot-michael-brown-suffered-fractured-eye-socket-friend-says/2014/08/21/177524ea-293c-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html?hpid=z1

X-rays of the fracture will be shared with the grand jury. Checkmate.

Shady, this isn't a chess game. And you still believe bs in the media.