Ferguson unrest

[Shady]

You don't have to be a hero to deserve better than being killed by police.

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What did the cop arrest him and put him in the car for?

Walking while black?

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He wasn't put in any car. He and his friend were asked to stop walking in the middle of the street. I think that's a somewhat reasonable request.

[Black Dog]

He wasn't put in any car. He and his friend were asked to stop walking in the middle of the street. I think that's a somewhat reasonable request.

Say the white guy who has probably never been stopped by cops without a reason in his life.

[jacee]

He wasn't put in any car. He and his friend were asked to stop walking in the middle of the street. I think that's a somewhat reasonable request.

Better check your facts Shady. The supposed "struggle" is reported to have happened in the police cruiser.

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[Black Dog]

Better check your facts Shady. The supposed "struggle" is reported to have happened in the police cruiser.

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To be fair, both accounts indicate Brown was outside and the cop was inside. Police version has Brown reaching in to attacked the cop, other versions have the cop grabbing Brown and pulling him towards the vehicle.

[Hal 9000]

Say the white guy who has probably never been stopped by cops without a reason in his life.

Slowing or stopping to tell people to move off the road is something that happens thousands of times every day in cities in North America. It's very routine.

[guyser]

So is being pulled over for DWB .

[Hal 9000]

So is being pulled over for DWB .

But that's not what happened here! Unless you think that Wilson should spend his life in prison paying the debt of some other possible racist incidents,you should leave out the straw man victim bull shit.

I have no issue with calling out over zealous or racist cops - I'm on record doing it at this site, the problem is this; You guy's heard that a white cop shot an unarmed black child multiple times and have jumped in with both feet. I was on that page too, but if things check out they way their shaping, then Wilson is not only in the right, but was forced into that shooting by Brown himself. And...It'll be a sad situation if he gets railroaded on this.

I'm not saying there isn't racism in America, but every day it becomes more obvious that people have chosen the wrong case to make an example of.

It's Ok to change sides (or see both sides) on this - I did.

[Black Dog]

So very sad. That situation was nothing like the police description of it. Again, the cops showed up with weapons drawn and pointed. Why are they being trained to respond this way?

Maslow's hammer.

And no, it doesn't have to be this way.

[guyser]

But that's not what happened here!

No one said it did. You said it happens, and I agreed and said so is DWB.

Unless you think that Wilson should spend his life in prison paying the debt of some other possible racist incidents,you should leave out the straw man victim bull shit.

You should leave out BS that I never said nor inferred. Straw man? What ?

You guy's heard that a white cop shot an unarmed black child multiple times and have jumped in with both feet.

You guys heard? Who heard? Have I come to any conclusions on this? Not yet, still waiting for the facts, all of them.

[GostHacked]

So very sad. That situation was nothing like the police description of it. Again, the cops showed up with weapons drawn and pointed. Why are they being trained to respond this way?

They are also trained and allowed to lie in order to get information out of you. Not a good precedent when the people policing us are allowed to lie, rife with abuse.

[Black Dog]

But that's not what happened here! Unless you think that Wilson should spend his life in prison paying the debt of some other possible racist incidents,you should leave out the straw man victim bull shit.

It's not "straw man bull shit" (that would be the suggestion that anybody said Wilson was a racist cop). It's about understanding that some people or even groups of people view interactions with police differently than you or I and that those interactions can shape future encounters. IOW: if you're a young black man in the U.S. where young black men are frequent targets of police harassment, a cop rolling up to tell you to get off the road is going to have some implications beyond a routine request to keep traffic moving.

I have no issue with calling out over zealous or racist cops - I'm on record doing it at this site, the problem is this; You guy's heard that a white cop shot an unarmed black child multiple times and have jumped in with both feet. I was on that page too, but if things check out they way their shaping, then Wilson is not only in the right, but was forced into that shooting by Brown himself. And...It'll be a sad situation if he gets railroaded on this.

Except we'll never actually know. It might be so that Brown did attack Wilson and that Wilson was in fear for his life. But it's the crucial moments before that took place that will be entirely lost. What was the tone of the initial exchange? The neither narrative (psycho cop/angry thug) is very convincing. Even if we end up hearing more than we do, there's a lot more we never will and people will draw their own conclusions and ignore or believe whatever "facts" they choose.

I'm not saying there isn't racism in America, but every day it becomes more obvious that people have chosen the wrong case to make an example of.

It's Ok to change sides (or see both sides) on this - I did.

Well, there's always going to be plenty of other examples of cops killing unarmed black men to choose from, so...hooray?

[Hal 9000]

It's not "straw man bull shit" (that would be the suggestion that anybody said Wilson was a racist cop). It's about understanding that some people or even groups of people view interactions with police differently than you or I and that those interactions can shape future encounters. IOW: if you're a young black man in the U.S. where young black men are frequent targets of police harassment, a cop rolling up to tell you to get off the road is going to have some implications beyond a routine request to keep traffic moving.

Except we'll never actually know. It might be so that Brown did attack Wilson and that Wilson was in fear for his life. But it's the crucial moments before that took place that will be entirely lost. What was the tone of the initial exchange? The neither narrative (psycho cop/angry thug) is very convincing. Even if we end up hearing more than we do, there's a lot more we never will and people will draw their own conclusions and ignore or believe whatever "facts" they choose.

Well, there's always going to be plenty of other examples of cops killing unarmed black men to choose from, so...hooray?

It is a straw man to bring in that people get pulled over for DWB because that's not what happened - and...it is an implication that Wilson was harassing Brown because he's a racist cop. This was nothing more than a cop doing his job and instructing 2 guys to get off the road. I've had it happen to me a number of times - and I'm white.

Even after the exchange, whatever the tone was, Wilson was still leaving the scene when he heard the call and decided to reverse back to Brown. What began as a simple request to keep off the road quickly turned to a cop getting assaulted and struggling for his own gun.

[Argus]

This is re: the Kajieme Powell shooting. Video released today shows that Powell was walking towards the cops at normal speed with his hands at his side and appears to be much further than the three or four feet reported (the first shot is fired when he's at least 10 feet away).

When a guy pointing a gun at you repeatedly yells at you to stop and you keep moving towards him, well, sorry, but I'm having a hard time finding a lot of sympathy here. Ten feet is not very far away. If you fall forward you're down to four feet, which is almost stabbing range. A tazer would have been nice but again, that's not policy. Tazers sometimes don't work. If a guy lunges at you with a knife you could be dead. A gun always works.

[Black Dog]

It is a straw man to bring in that people get pulled over for DWB because that's not what happened - and...it is an implication that Wilson was harassing Brown because he's a racist cop. This was nothing more than a cop doing his job and instructing 2 guys to get off the road. I've had it happen to me a number of times - and I'm white.

I guess you don't get it. Can't say I didn't try.

[Black Dog]

When a guy pointing a gun at you repeatedly yells at you to stop and you keep moving towards him, well, sorry, but I'm having a hard time finding a lot of sympathy here.

Yes why didn't the guy who was mumbling to himself, shuffling erratically, and then asking cops to shoot him not respond rationally to their commands?

You're not really looking at the big picture here. Is there any reason the cops couldn't have approached this situation differently from the get go? Park across the street, assess the threat and actually engage the guy in a non-confrontational manner? In this case (and I expect, many others) deadly force is the first resort. It should be the last.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Black Dog

[guyser]

It is a straw man to bring in that people get pulled over for DWB because that's not what happened -

And once again, nobody did that.

Either you are confused or obstinate.

[Hal 9000]

Telling a cop that he has no right to stop you, that you won't show your ID, calling him names, you can walk or stand wherever you want, ignoring their requests etc. doesn't work it only agitates the situation. It was that way when I was a teen in the 80's, it was that way in the 90's, 2000's and it's still that way. No matter what colour you are, you can't do that shit.

Do minorities actually believe that white people punch out cops, tell them to F-off and ignore their requests without consequence?

[Hal 9000]

And once again, nobody did that.

Either you are confused or obstinate.

Hal: Slowing or stopping to tell people to move off the road is something that happens thousands of times every day in cities in North America. It's very routine.

Guyser: So is being pulled over for DWB .

[Argus]

Yes why didn't the guy who was mumbling to himself, shuffling erratically, and then asking cops to shoot him not respond rationally to their commands?

You're not really looking at the big picture here. Is there any reason the cops couldn't have approached this situation differently from the get go? Park across the street, assess the threat and actually engage the guy in a non-confrontational manner? In this case (and I expect, many others) deadly force is the first resort. It should be the last.

That would have been a good idea, but as you can see, things happened pretty fast. They parked, and the guy started moving towards them. Would have been nice if they had some quick thinking, pulled out the tazer (presuming they had one) and put their vehicle between them and him. I'm not saying this was anything like an ideal solution. Just saying I can see why they shot the guy when he kept moving closer. It's not like they really knew for sure what they'd be facing before they were facing it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Here is one of my faves that DoP posted a while back:

[Black Dog]

Telling a cop that he has no right to stop you, that you won't show your ID, calling him names, you can walk or stand wherever you want, ignoring their requests etc. doesn't work it only agitates the situation. It was that way when I was a teen in the 80's, it was that way in the 90's, 2000's and it's still that way. No matter what colour you are, you can't do that shit.

Do minorities actually believe that white people punch out cops, tell them to F-off and ignore their requests without consequence?

If you're not doing anything illegal to justify the cops confronting you, you should be able to do that shit.

[jacee]

... was forced into that shooting by Brown himself.

That's ridiculous.

Cops are only justified in shooting if their life is in immediate danger - ie, self-defence.

Shooting an unarmed man running away doesn't qualify, especially AFTER he stops running and puts his hands in the air to surrender!!

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[Black Dog]

That would have been a good idea, but as you can see, things happened pretty fast. They parked, and the guy started moving towards them. Would have been nice if they had some quick thinking, pulled out the tazer (presuming they had one) and put their vehicle between them and him. I'm not saying this was anything like an ideal solution. Just saying I can see why they shot the guy when he kept moving closer. It's not like they really knew for sure what they'd be facing before they were facing it.

Which is the problem. They didn't take any time at all to assess the situation and the threat level. They went straight to DEFCON 2. OH yeah: and then they lied about key details afterwards. So, why is it that people expect the worst from cops?

[guyser]

Telling a cop that he has no right to stop you, that you won't show your ID, calling him names, you can walk or stand wherever you want, ignoring their requests etc. doesn't work it only agitates the situation.

And....if the person being told that had the right to stand there, doesnt have to show ID , and their other requests are invalid...then what?

Do minorities actually believe that white people punch out cops, tell them to F-off and ignore their requests without consequence?

Well duh...sure they do.

Apart from a punch, I have done the other 2 without any further consequence.

[Black Dog]

Hal: Slowing or stopping to tell people to move off the road is something that happens thousands of times every day in cities in North America. It's very routine.

Guyser: So is being pulled over for DWB .

Boy did you miss the point on that one.

Guyser was not saying Brown was stopped because he was black, but that black people being stopped by police for no reason beyond being black is as routine as traffic instructions.