The HAMAS Charter - Murderous Insanity

[overthere]

After WW2. Is that what it'll take?

I thinkIIsrael reallizes it may come to that, and given their experience since about 1935 they are prudent in preparing.

Armageddon is just around the corner for them every day.

[Argus]

It appears that your post is directed to me. I acknowledge that I have seen it. It would be impolite not to do so.

It appears you are almost entirely ignorant of what a public discussion forum is about.

When you post a statement or opinion on a public forum, anyone can challenge that statement or opinion, particularly if it's a dumb one. Such challenges are aimed at your words, not at you. Nobody cares if you read them. Nobody cares if you reply to them. Your words will continue to be challenged regardless, and, if dumb, mocked. That this clearly causes you some emotional difficulties is irrelevant to that basic fact.

Have a nice day.

[Argus]

Not sure why it would have offended anyone. We all knew what was going on.

His words were dumb. You know, the police charged a guy a couple of days ago because he jokingly offered a six pack to anyone who tossed an egg or tomato at Rob Ford. The authorities do take this stuff seriously, and even if you don't mean it calling for violence on that scale is most definitely against the rules here.

[Moonbox]

After 2 members suggested moderator review and after X years of reading you guys go at it from every single angle, I gambled that we would see more requests for moderator review. So, to quell an onslaught of repetitive reports, I decided to let you all know right away that nothing is being ignored --- with the hope that you would all move on.

That's a good answer, and a clear message that the board is still being actively moderated. Thanks!

[Big Guy]

I just understand what is going on, I am not blinded by hatred. Hamas is the problem and If I were you, read their charter all the answers to the problem is right there. The destruction of Israel is their mission, nothing and I mean nothing to do with the palastine people. Israel left gaza and took a bunch of settlers with them and what did it get for it, more rockets coming out of gaza. Do the math.

Thank you for reading my post and taking the time to respond. The math that I am concerned with is the casualties on both sides. It appears that we interpret the results differently.

[Big Guy]

It appears you are almost entirely ignorant of what a public discussion forum is about.

When you post a statement or opinion on a public forum, anyone can challenge that statement or opinion, particularly if it's a dumb one. Such challenges are aimed at your words, not at you. Nobody cares if you read them. Nobody cares if you reply to them. Your words will continue to be challenged regardless, and, if dumb, mocked. That this clearly causes you some emotional difficulties is irrelevant to that basic fact.

Have a nice day.

It appears that your post is directed to me. I acknowledge that I have seen it. It would be impolite not to do so.

I personally find you an irritant and your recent posts meant to irritate.

Shooo. Go away. Buzz off.

Sorry, I am not interested in engaging in any dialogue with you or your opinions.

Until/if/when you change your approach I will be responding in this manner.

Have a nice day.

[Bryan]

The Israelis will kill as many Palestinians as they need to to get the rockets to stop firing into their territory.

And Palestinians will kill as many Israelis as they need to get Israel to stop their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Israel started this, just like they started the whole conflict. Stop terrorizing Palestinians, and they'll stop trying to defend themselves.

[Bonam]

And Palestinians will kill as many Israelis as they need to get Israel to stop their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

What ethnic cleansing? The only ethnic cleansing that's happened is when Gaza was "cleansed" of Jews.

Israel started this, just like they started the whole conflict.

[Smallc]

And Palestinians will kill as many Israelis as they need to get Israel to stop their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Israel started this, just like they started the whole conflict. Stop terrorizing Palestinians, and they'll stop trying to defend themselves.

And with his opinion you still think that Harper, the staunch Israel supporter is the best ever?

[eyeball]

After WW2. Is that what it'll take?

Well, you often hear references to turning the ME into glass in these sorts of threads.

In any case it's all just been and still is one stupid never-ending war with no apparent end in sight.

[Bryan]

And with his opinion you still think that Harper, the staunch Israel supporter is the best ever?

He is the best ever by a very wide margin.

The problem is, the bar has been set VERY low. His position on Israel disgusts me, but his domestic policies are still several orders of magnitude better than the current alternatives, making him still the only credible option at this time.

What ethnic cleansing?

Start with Plan D, then move forward from there. Israel attacks first, ALWAYS. Palestinians try to defend themselves, then Israel claims that they are the ones under attack, and use that as an excuse to launch an all out assault. That assault is always a cover for just taking more Palestinian land to build more Israeli settlements. Then they starve out the remaining villagers in the area, cut off their water supply, bulldoze their orchards, and commandeer any vessels that try to sent in aid. Israel are war criminals in every sense of the word.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Bryan

[eyeball]

He is the best ever by a very wide margin.

The problem is, the bar has been set VERY low.

And it's set in concrete so it doesn't move. Ever.

[Bonam]

Start with Plan D, then move forward from there. Israel attacks first, ALWAYS. Palestinians try to defend themselves, then Israel claims that they are the ones under attack, and use that as an excuse to launch an all out assault. That assault is always a cover for just taking more Palestinian land to build more Israeli settlements. Then they starve out the remaining villagers in the area, cut off their water supply, bulldoze their orchards, and commandeer any vessels that try to sent in aid. Israel are war criminals in every sense of the word.

Start with Plan Q, then drift sideward from there. Abacus wobbles first, ALWAYS. Pigs fly to remove themselves, then giraffe claims it is not tall enough, and use that as an excuse to freeze hell over. The freezing is always a cover for just taking more bananas to build more birdhouses. Then they starve out the remaining canaries in the mine, cut the sunflowers, bulldoze the aquariums, and commandeer any rubber duckies that try to sent in bubbles. Typewriters are war profiteers in every sense of the word.

Makes approximately equal sense and is approximately equally factually correct.

[Keepitsimple]

He is the best ever by a very wide margin.

The problem is, the bar has been set VERY low. His position on Israel disgusts me, but his domestic policies are still several orders of magnitude better than the current alternatives, making him still the only credible option at this time.

Start with Plan D, then move forward from there. Israel attacks first, ALWAYS. Palestinians try to defend themselves, then Israel claims that they are the ones under attack, and use that as an excuse to launch an all out assault. That assault is always a cover for just taking more Palestinian land to build more Israeli settlements. Then they starve out the remaining villagers in the area, cut off their water supply, bulldoze their orchards, and commandeer any vessels that try to sent in aid. Israel are war criminals in every sense of the word.

How do you explain Israel completely dis-engaging from Gaza in 2005 - compensating thousands of "settlers" so they would leave - and forcibly evicting those who would not?

[Argus]

And Palestinians will kill as many Israelis as they need to get Israel to stop their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Israel started this, just like they started the whole conflict. Stop terrorizing Palestinians, and they'll stop trying to defend themselves.

There is no evidence of any 'ethnic cleansing'. The numbers of Palestinians inside the territories continues to grow, as do the numbers of Arab Muslims inside Israel.

Maybe you could find another justification for your hatred?

[overthere]

Start with Plan Q, then drift sideward from there. Abacus wobbles first, ALWAYS. Pigs fly to remove themselves, then giraffe claims it is not tall enough, and use that as an excuse to freeze hell over. The freezing is always a cover for just taking more bananas to build more birdhouses. Then they starve out the remaining canaries in the mine, cut the sunflowers, bulldoze the aquariums, and commandeer any rubber duckies that try to sent in bubbles. Typewriters are war profiteers in every sense of the word.

Makes approximately equal sense and is approximately equally factually correct.

Post Of The Day. Thank you.

[Keepitsimple]

Cognisant Dissonance. Willful blindness.

I have to think that many of our posters think that the Hamas Charter is just "words" - that they can't possibly mean what they say. That's one of the problems in Western countries - especially in far-away Canada - people just cannot relate to the murderous violence, bigotry and overt hatred that is Hamas's Raison D'etre - and is clearly and openly documented in their Manifesto. They just ignore it - they just can't be serious.

Believe it. It's happening right in front of us. Hamas and ISIS. And it won't stop.

[eyeball]

Many of the posters you're talking about told people like you years ago that western government's policies would cause the world to unfold the way it's unfolding. You didn't believe it and now that it's happening right in front of you...you blame the posters you're sneering down at. Probably for voting for un-conservatives or refusing to vote at all or some such thing.

You people are so oblivious that even a shovel upside your heads would fail to register.

[PIK]

And Palestinians will kill as many Israelis as they need to get Israel to stop their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Israel started this, just like they started the whole conflict. Stop terrorizing Palestinians, and they'll stop trying to defend themselves.

Get rid of hamas ,no more killing. It is very simple. Look at the deal Arafat turned down, IMO If he went thru with it we would not be having this discussion. Edited August 2, 2014 by PIK

[Rue]

I commend all the posters on this forum who have called out Hamas. I personally thank you on behalf of people I know in the IDF. I also think it enables someone like me who is actually a moderate but becomes overly defensive about Israel to cool it knowing many of you understand Hamas is not some boy scout organization and those of us who despise it and want it taken out do not hate Palestinians and in fact want them liberated from Hamas.

Big Guy you and I will never agree on Israel and Hamas but we do agree as do all of the posters you have seen come out against Hamas that none of us wants civilians killed. None of us.

I just believe Big Guy until terrorists are disarmed this will continue.

What causes that psychological break through such as the one that led to the IRA putting down its weapons, I do not know.

I wish I did. I firmly believe until the Arab world can transcend its terrorists and corrupt leaders, its doomed for many more years of civil wars,Muslim on Muslim violence, terrorism etc. The clash between Hamas and Israel is but one of thousands going on in the Arab world.

I had a heated debate with JBG over this. I agree with his original premises years ago that Muslim fundamentalism fuels much of the problem-the difference for me though I guess is that I have to believe there are Muslim moderates who agree with those of us fed up with Hamas.

I spoke with one yesterday walking our dogs.He's upset over the deaths. His family is from the West Bank and he told me he is fed up with Muslim extremists controlling Palestinians. Its hard not to understand on a basic level his anger at Palestinian civilian deaths and lashing out at the IDF. On the other hand he also knows Hamas triggers the IDF. He's angry but his years in Canada has distanced him from the actual turmoil so he can actually walk with me and we both can come to the same conclusions.

We have a luxury in Canada in that we have space to get away from each other when we get annoying. We have freedoms we take for granted.

How many years, centuries, it will take for the Muslim world to evolve past its extremism as the Jews and Christians once did until such extremists are no longer mainstream I do not know.

I mean think about it. How many years ago say was Quebec in fact run by its Catholic Church. Not that long ago in terms of over-all history.

I just think until more moderate Muslims surface to run their countries its "gonna" get a hell of a lot worse until it gets better.

As or extremists, I do not care what religion they claim to quote, they are full of it.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Rue

[Keepitsimple]

I commend all the posters on this forum who have called out Hamas. I personally thank you on behalf of people I know in the IDF. I also think it enables someone like me who is actually a moderate but becomes overly defensive about Israel to cool it knowing many of you understand Hamas is not some boy scout organization and those of us who despise it and want it taken out do not hate Palestinians and in fact want them liberated from Hamas.

Big Guy you and I will never agree on Israel and Hamas but we do agree as do all of the posters you have seen come out against Hamas that none of us wants civilians killed. None of us.

I just believe Big Guy until terrorists are disarmed this will continue.

What causes that psychological break through such as the one that led to the IRA putting down its weapons, I do not know.

I wish I did. I firmly believe until the Arab world can transcend its terrorists and corrupt leaders, its doomed for many more years of civil wars,Muslim on Muslim violence, terrorism etc. The clash between Hamas and Israel is but one of thousands going on in the Arab world.

I had a heated debate with JBG over this. I agree with his original premises years ago that Muslim fundamentalism fuels much of the problem-the difference for me though I guess is that I have to believe there are Muslim moderates who agree with those of us fed up with Hamas.

I spoke with one yesterday walking our dogs.He's upset over the deaths. His family is from the West Bank and he told me he is fed up with Muslim extremists controlling Palestinians. Its hard not to understand on a basic level his anger at Palestinian civilian deaths and lashing out at the IDF. On the other hand he also knows Hamas triggers the IDF. He's angry but his years in Canada has distanced him from the actual turmoil so he can actually walk with me and we both can come to the same conclusions.

We have a luxury in Canada in that we have space to get away from each other when we get annoying. We have freedoms we take for granted.

How many years, centuries, it will take for the Muslim world to evolve past its extremism as the Jews and Christians once did until such extremists are no longer mainstream I do not know.

I mean think about it. How many years ago say was Quebec in fact run by its Catholic Church. Not that long ago in terms of over-all history.

I just think until more moderate Muslims surface to run their countries its "gonna" get a hell of a lot worse until it gets better.

As for extremists, I do not care what religion they claim to quote, they are full of it.

Nicely said Rue.

[On Guard for Thee]

Many of the posters you're talking about told people like you years ago that western government's policies would cause the world to unfold the way it's unfolding. You didn't believe it and now that it's happening right in front of you...you blame the posters you're sneering down at. Probably for voting for un-conservatives or refusing to vote at all or some such thing.

You people are so oblivious that even a shovel upside your heads would fail to register.

Correct. The narrowminded attitudes demonstred herein will ensure this bloodshed will continue.

[ironstone]

He is the best ever by a very wide margin.

The problem is, the bar has been set VERY low. His position on Israel disgusts me, but his domestic policies are still several orders of magnitude better than the current alternatives, making him still the only credible option at this time.

Start with Plan D, then move forward from there. Israel attacks first, ALWAYS. Palestinians try to defend themselves, then Israel claims that they are the ones under attack, and use that as an excuse to launch an all out assault. That assault is always a cover for just taking more Palestinian land to build more Israeli settlements. Then they starve out the remaining villagers in the area, cut off their water supply, bulldoze their orchards, and commandeer any vessels that try to sent in aid. Israel are war criminals in every sense of the word.

I agree that Harper is the best leader out there now.And his position on Israel is correct.For the record,Israel withdrew from Gaza years ago and also removed Israeli settlements from the West Bank.They do,in fact allow supplies into Gaza but have to search it for obvious reasons.

[jbg]

The Charter will be my reading on the train home.

[Rue]

JBG when you read that Charter you will find its a mix of several things-British constitutional concepts, but also some American ones. Its a hybrid of the two and our old Bill of Rights and the British North America Act.

The concept of putting a constitution in writing we borrowed from the US. In Britain the constitution has never been codified. Its always been drawn from both oral customs and protocols and a wide range of statutes.

We pretty much followed that approach until Diefenbaker drafted the Bill of Rights which was an attempt to create a written code of behaviour.

In Canada, Quebec with its Napoleonic-Roman civil law approach codified laws and so had a head start on drafting statutes which are in fact codified laws, but in the rest of Canada outside Quebec we did not have as many statutes and written laws as the Romanic law type countries depending more heavily on case law decisions from our Judges.

Today of course the whole world through statutes codifies law even common law countries, but our decision to put in writing the Charter of Rights I would argue is based on the influence of how the US Constitution was used in the US to decide major legal issues.

In Canada the way the Charter is written and its not specifically stated but is interpreted that way-when interpreting the Charter, our Judges are supposed to interpret it as applying before not applying (a presumption in favour of it applying until you argue otherwise) and that it appliesin as broad an application as possible.

We also believe it applies to anyone who steps foot on Canadian soil, not just its citizens and we believe it applies to convicts as well.

Its application was not envisioned to be as wide spread as it is now used in criminal and administrative-tribunal law matters.

One side effect is it has dramatically increased the cost and expenses of criminal trials and jammed up the criminal courts so much with charter arguments our plea bargaining rate is now 95%-that is to say, 95% of criminal cases are plea bargained because the courts can barely accommodate the 5% that go to trial with all their charter challenges.

Where we did imitate the US Charter directly is in the concept that one does not have to state evidence as a witness that would incriminate themselves,

The Charter requires police to now give a Miranda like warning, i.e., they must inform anyone under arrest they have a right to speak to a lawyer first before doing anything or saying anything. There is some confusion whether this right supercedes a police officer demanding a breathalyzer test at the side of the road. Right now I would say to people they must cooperate but a recent case seems to suggest people have a right to speak to alawyer where possible before they blow.

it has ledto multiple releases from prison of accuseds who failed to get a trial within a fair time. As a general rule, if a delay in getting to trial is not caused in any way by a defendant, once you hit that 4 month to 6th month mark, chances are the case can get thrown out on a charter challenge arguing your right to a speedy trial was infringed. We have a section that warns against unnecessarily restraining people's freedom.

Our charter presumes of course one is innocent until proven guilty and a Canadian should have the right to live wherever they want in Canada and enjoy the same basic rights.

On a practical basis our criminal laws which are federal jurisdiction can reverse the onus and presume someone guilty until proven innocent in certain cases such as the breathalyzer test-if you refuse to blow you are assumed guilty of being drunk. As well on a practical basis regional differences in employment levels have resulted in discrimination that has been allowed. People in Ontario for example are not entitled to the same amount of unemployment insurance as people in Atlantic Canada. That has caused some challenges that have failed to show it discriminated.

No one has been able to use the Charter to protect their right to engage in hate crimes.

There is a "not withstanding" clause that allows provinces to threaten to ignore the charter and opt out of it but it has not been used yet although Quebec threatened to use it over its laws that discriminate against the English language which they claim are necessary to protect the French language.