kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[Bonam]

Look when you illegally occupy someone elses land and plunder it for resources, these kinds of conflicts are going to result. And when you have a modern military power fighting against people that arent even allowed to drill wells or farm food, then those people are going to resort to guerilla warfare. For them its either that or do nothing. Its a completely predictable reality, and Israel planned for it from the very beginning.

That's all well and good but still does not answer how Israel should respond to Hamas aggression from Gaza.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's all well and good but still does not answer how Israel should respond to Hamas aggression from Gaza.

Sure doesn't.....

They arent obvious parallels, even an a remote way.

Grrrrrrrreat !! Then I expect to see those "illegal" Canadian and American settlements to go away any day now. Land claims...all resolved. Stolen resources...all returned or compensated for. See...no rocket attacks or suicide bombings required. Wasn't that easy ?!

[Black Dog]

What 'occupation of Gaza', Israel left Gaza in 2005 leaving thousands of greenhouses which were destroyed by Palestinians.

So sick of hearing about the fucking greenhouses.

Let's put this to bed.

About half the greenhouses in the Israeli settlements in Gaza have already been dismantled by their owners, who have given up waiting to see if the government was going to come up with extra payment as an inducement to leave them behind, say senior officials working on the coordination of this summer's Israeli pullout from Gaza.

Of the roughly 1,000 acres of agricultural land that were under greenhouses in the 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza, only 500 acres remain - creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as "a living business," the goal cited by the Israeli coordinator of the pullout, Eival Giladi.

More:

Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

“We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke,” said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. “We’ve tried to stop as many people as we can, but they’re like locusts.”

The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel’s troop pullout Monday raised new concerns about Gaza’s future.

...

The greenhouses are a centerpiece of Palestinian plans for rebuilding Gaza after 38 years of Israeli occupation. The Palestinian Authority hopes the high-tech greenhouses left by the Israelis will provide jobs and export income for Gaza’s shattered economy.

During a tour of Neve Dekalim, Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia implored Palestinians to leave the structures intact. “These greenhouses are for the Palestinian people,” he said. “We don’t want anyone to touch or harm anything that can be useful for our people.”

Jihad al-Wazir, the deputy Palestinian finance minister, said roughly 30 percent of the greenhouses suffered various degrees of damage. He said that after a “very heated meeting” with Qureia and other Palestinian leaders, the security forces appeared to be getting the situation under control.

“We expect the security to protect the assets properly,” he said.

Poor people steal shit while inadequate security stands by. Nothing really new there (we saw the same kind of thing, in fact worse, when the U.S. stood by and let looters run wild after the fall of Baghdad) but the narrative makes it sounds like it was a coordinated effort just to spite the Israelis.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Black Dog

[Bonam]

Poor people steal shit while inadequate security stands by. Nothing really new there (we saw the same kind of thing, in fact worse, when the U.S. stood by and let looters run wild after the fall of Baghdad) but the narrative makes it sounds like it was a coordinated effort just to spite the Israelis.

It's just another (among many thousands) of illustrations of the Palestinians inability and unwillingness to work towards making a functioning society or economy, instead devoting all their energy and efforts to ineffectual violence against Israel.

[Black Dog]

It's just another (among many thousands) of illustrations of the Palestinians inability and unwillingness to work towards making a functioning society or economy, instead devoting all their energy and efforts to ineffectual violence against Israel.

Except it's not. Not even close. Which would be obvious if you'd actually read the damn post.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Black Dog

[Bonam]

Except it's not. Not even close. Which would be obvious if you'd actually read the damn post.

Of course it is. I did read the "damn post".

What, Hamas couldn't spare a few more of its militants to go secure the greenhouses? Too busy getting ready to attack Israel?

[Black Dog]

Of course it is. I did read the "damn post".

What, Hamas couldn't spare a few more of its militants to go secure the greenhouses? Too busy getting ready to attack Israel?

If you believe, as you do, that Hamas doesn't care about the people, then that's a stupid question to ask.

So on the one hand you have a terrorist organization that doesn't care about its own people except as much as they can exploit them. Then you have average people who are probably more concerned with day-to-day survival than grand plans for redevelopment. Together, this leads to looting a few greenhouses (a few, not thousands and certainly not as many as were dismantled by the settlers out of spite beforehand), yet somehow this is construed as a big statement against Israel. It's ridiculous.

[Bonam]

If you believe, as you do, that Hamas doesn't care about the people, then that's a stupid question to ask.

So on the one hand you have a terrorist organization that doesn't care about its own people except as much as they can exploit them. Then you have average people who are probably more concerned with day-to-day survival than grand plans for redevelopment. Together, this leads to looting a few greenhouses (a few, not thousands and certainly not as many as were dismantled by the settlers out of spite beforehand), yet somehow this is construed as a big statement against Israel. It's ridiculous.

I did not construe it as a "big statement against Israel" but rather as an illustration of the ineptitude of the Palestinians and their leaders in doing anything constructive.

[Argus]

My position is that the wiping out of all Palestinians would be the final solution and the area would be at peace.

Advocating genocide is against the law in Canada, in case you didn't know that...

[Argus]

Sometimes you have to repeat a message that does not seem to be received. I respond to posters who comment on my posts. That is the essence of electronic bulletin boards. Somebody comments on one of my posts then I respond. If they don't then I don't. That is only being polite.

We'll just add good manners to the long list of subjects of which you are extremely confused.

[Argus]

It's irrelevant:

A cease fire is just a cease fire.

Hamas proposes 10 years, with reasonable conditions.

.

And they've just demonstrated what their word is worth by violating an agreed upon truce twenty minutes into it.

[Argus]

Well the thing is they continue to suffer whether they stop or not.

You have to be alive to suffer.

[Argus]

Have you even read Hamas' conditions?

HAARETZ: Gideon Levy

Hamas and Islamic Jihad demand freedom for Gaza. Is there a more understandable and just demand?

Freedom? Hamas tortures and kills indiscriminately, often without trial, anyone who opposes them. What kind of freedom do you expect the citizens of Gaza to 'enjoy' with Hamas in charge?

This has nothing to do with freedom. Hamas has no interest in freedom. It's about power. They want to have unrestrained power over those under them. That's all.

[Argus]

There are no rules in war. You get in the way you get killed. You kill enough of them and they give up.

The one who has the most military might and/or is more successful in killing the other side wins and writes the history.

Might is right.

you call a time out on a war? Do a bunch of referees run on to the field and start penalizing who fired first?

This may be the most inane and pointless post I've seen here in a long, long time. What meaningless tripe.

[Big Guy]

This may be the most inane and pointless post I've seen here in a long, long time. What meaningless tripe.

It appears that your post is directed to me. I acknowledge that I have seen it. It would be impolite not to do so.

I personally find you an irritant and your recent posts meant to irritate.

Shooo. Go away. Buzz off. Go irritate somebody else.

Sorry, I am not interested in engaging in any dialogue with you or your opinions.

Until/if/when you change your approach I will be responding in this manner.

Have a nice day.

[Bonam]

It appears that your post is directed to me. I acknowledge that I have seen it. It would be impolite not to do so.

I personally find you an irritant and your recent posts meant to irritate.

Shooo. Go away. Buzz off. Go irritate somebody else.

Sorry, I am not interested in engaging in any dialogue with you or your opinions.

Until/if/when you change your approach I will be responding in this manner.

Have a nice day.

If you find a post or poster objectionable, why not simply not reply to them, rather than cluttering up the threads with these content-free posts?

[Big Guy]

If you find a post or poster objectionable, why not simply not reply to them, rather than cluttering up the threads with these content-free posts?

Thank you for your post.

One way to clutter up threads is to post to posters that they should not post content-free posts which may be cluttering up the threads. I shall therefore not criticize you for cluttering up this thread with this content-free post. Actually, I have a better suggestion; If you find a post or poster objectionable, why not simply not reply to them, rather than cluttering up the threads with these content-free posts?

[-TSS-]

Hamas will always win the PR-war and that's the most important thing and that's why we see these headlines at regular intervals every few years. Every time treated by the media as if it were the first time.

These two conflicts, Gaza and Ukraine, are competing for attention. Gaza will always be a hotspot but it will always remain regional. I wouldn't say the same thing about Ukraine.

[Shady]

The last thing Hamas wants is a free and prosperous Gaza. That would completely undermine their power, and would significantly reduce their support for their "fight" against Israel. The people of Gaza are just pawns in their game. Nothing more.

[Big Guy]

The last thing Hamas wants is a free and prosperous Gaza. That would completely undermine their power, and would significantly reduce their support for their "fight" against Israel. The people of Gaza are just pawns in their game. Nothing more.

Many of the posters here seem incredulous that this awful group of blood thirsty killers who have gathered into a group, called themselves Hamas and have been enjoying getting Palestinians killed and still have any support in Gaza.

Well, from that well known pro-Hamas resource, Wikipedia, “ Its popularity stems in part from its welfare wing providing social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories. Such services are not generally provided by the Palestinian Authority. Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.

In particular, Hamas funded health services where people could receive free or inexpensive medical treatment. Hamas greatly contributed to the health sector, and facilitated hospital and physician services in the Palestinian territory. On the other hand, Hamas's use of hospitals is sometimes criticised as purportedly serving the promotion of violence against Israel. Charities affiliated with Hamas are known to financially support families of those who have been killed or imprisoned while carrying out militant actions or supporting such actions. Families typically receive a one time grant of $500 to $5,000, and those whose homes have been destroyed by the Israel Defense Forces have their rent paid for temporary housing. Families of militants not affiliated with Hamas sometimes receive less.

Hamas has funded education and built Islamic charities, libraries, mosques and education centers for women. They also built nurseries, kindergartens and supervised religious schools that provide free meals to children. When children attend their schools and mosques, parents are required to sign oaths of allegiance. Refugees, as well as those left without homes, are able to claim financial and technical assistance from Hamas.

The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah. Since the 2008–2009 Israeli military operation in Gaza, Palestinian public opinion polls have shown Hamas steadily increasing in popularity with 52% support compared to 13% for Fatah. All public opinion surveys conducted recently have supported this trend.”

Now you can write off that info as prejudicial crap, Islamic propaganda or pro-Hamas lies.

Or you could consider that as one of the reasons that those 2 million people in Gaza continue to support this organization. Who else should the Gaza Palestinians depend upon for their services? No one else seems to care.

The Israeli government continues to do what it thinks is best for its citizens and invades Gaza killing about 1,300 innocent citizens.

Hamas continues to do what it thinks is best for Gaza citizens and keeps lobbing those rockets into Israel that have killed 2 innocent Israeli citizens.

The Israeli government will probably lead its citizens into annexing the rest of Palestine into Israel.

Hamas will probably lead its citizens into annihilation.

Maybe Hamas feels that annihilation is better than living under their current conditions.

Maybe not. So be it.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Big Guy

[PIK]

No sympathy for the fathers?

They are in the bunkers.

[scribblet]

If Hamas really cared about the people it would build bomb shelters for them instead of terror tunnels. If Hamas really cared about the people it would honour truces and quit showing their desire to exterminate those Jews, then they wouldn't need bomb shelters.

Greenhouses destroyed and Hamas getting wealthy

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-z-chesnoff/gaza-and-palestinian-leadership_b_5589766.html

Edited August 2, 2014 by scribblet

[Argus]

If you find a post or poster objectionable, why not simply not reply to them, rather than cluttering up the threads with these content-free posts?

Even his regular posts are generally content free...

[WestCoastRunner]

Personally, I think female leaders know when war is required just as men do, fortunately, they generally are not forced to make such decisions. Most of us, including women have the luxury of living in a free society without guilt - great, don't assume men are the monsters while you go for sushi, sip your wine and chat with your friends about how hard done by you are.

Um, I'm pretty sure I didn't call men monsters and how do you know I like sushi and wine! Very perceptive!

[Hal 9000]

Um, I'm pretty sure I didn't call men monsters and how do you know I like sushi and wine! Very perceptive!

You inferred it by suggesting that if woman ran the world - or whatever the quote was. Anyway, England has a long history of queens waging war, and I'd suspect Hillary has more of a trigger finger than Obama.