kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[Bob Macadoo]

You infer that if his home is targeted with him in it, it necessarily means the IDF wanted to kill his wife and child. No it does not.

You infer apathy to a situation rather than intent.....well debated sir.....like any true lawyer.

[Rue]

Ghost Hacked lets have a tea party with Jacee, Marcus,Monty, Hudson Jones, Eye, Dre.

Now some spell it " tea". If you want we can call it a tee party. Or a tee hee hee party.

Hee hee. We can sit around and ask each other what our real names are.

Ali, Muhammed, Omar, Fatima, Moishe.

We can talk about how Netanyahu kills babies on purpose.

[bush_cheney2004]

Netanyahu is correct....find and kill terrorists and the leaders of terrorists, regardless of the circumstances.

[Rue]

Oh Bob, I did not infer apathy. If Netanyahu was apathetic he would not have targeted the home in the first place.

Logic is not one of your strengths.

Now you want to snipe, finish the snipe. Do you contend Dief should not be targeted for death or be held morally responsible and culpable for exposing his people and his family to a direct line of fire?

Well? Does he get off from any consequence because he hides behind others?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Rue

[Bob Macadoo]

Oh Bob, I did not infer apathy. If Netanyahu was apathetic he would not have targeted the home in the first place.

Logic is not one of your strengths.

Now you want to snipe, finish the snipe. Do you contend Dief should not be targeted for death or be held morally responsible and culpable for exposing his people and his family to a direct line of fire?

Well? Does he get off from any consequence because he hides behind others?

Using logic, you just equated being held morally responsible with targeting for death. Please be clear in your diatribe logic next time please. The subject is Netanyahu's apathy for life not retribution......again please be precise in your logic. When you write less than a dissertation its easy to spot the holes.

Postscript:

I concede you might have also said that holding responsible is asimilar to targeting for death but I played the percentages.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Bob Macadoo

[Moonlight Graham]

Moonlight you again responded identically as you did earlier and I already expressed my views on why I think your comments are hateful and inappropriate. Israel hasn't got away with anything. Everything it does is under full public exposure is it not or are you saying you found out about what it did secretly/

How did Israeli get away with anything if you and so many like you are on the webs criticizing what Israel does?

You make no sense. If anything the UN, the world press, lambast Israel every chance they get with a double standard they will not use on Hamas.

In fact its become so absurd we have an openly bias anti Israeli law professor in Canada now professing he will as an impartial and neutral investigator decide if Israel committed any war crimes but will not consider what Hamas did.

In fact we have sheer insanity prevailing as now the arm chair geniuses of the world and the UN claim Israel should have supplied Hamas with an Iron Dome system.

Its passed absurd but your bias selectively sees what it wants to see and that is Hamas as a victim and Israel as the victimizer and no regard for Israeli citizens or Palestinian citizens.

As for your second comment, yes I know. In your world Israel sits on its ass and does nothing while Hamas kidnaps its citizens and kills them, sends suicide bombers in across the border and launches missiles at it daily causing 2.3rd's of its population to be unable to work.

Sure in your world Israel must do nothing as terrorists try attack its very existence and right to exist.

Can you finish what you started Moonlight. Its easy to say what Israel should not do sitting far from the direct line of fire. Tell me Moonlight should Israel do anything?

Would you have me believe if someone pointed a gun at your head from next door you would no nothing because the person pointing the gun at you

is pointing his gun standing behind his wife, child, etc.? Really now. In your world you would just die. You would make no effort to assure that this man

got no weapons in the future and you would make no move to kill him and maybe have to kill his wife but save his sons?

its all so easy in your world of black and white. Morality is not relative is it Moonlight. There's simply whatever Israel does is wrong, whatever Hamas does, is well never mind let's change the subject.

You put a whole lot of words in my mouth. Assumptions that are completely incorrect and quite offensive.

I have no sympathy for Hamas, they're a horrible group. I in no way support them and condemn their violent and hateful actions, so you're wrong. I'm also not saying Israel can't fight back, but it must be at last somewhat proportional and not a civilian/child slaughterhouse.

People criticizing Israel on the internet, or even Obama claiming he condemns Israeli actions (yet does nothing about it) doesn't stop Israel from ie: illegally expanding settlements, so yes they do get away a lot things.

[Rue]

Moonlight I stand corrected with your clarifications and accept them verbatum and apologize for any inferences made now that you were kind enough to clarify them. I am debating the words not you. If it came across that way here is a sincere apology. I read the words. Its quite possible I read too much into them which is why we debate and you respond and I listen with respect to you. Believe the respect. The disagreements are great. This is why we have this forum.

Mow I must challenge you again. What is a proportional response? Do you know? Therein lies the problem. Its easy to say respond proportionally but what does it mean? You have any clue? Its not just you its all the arm chair critics who use that phrase. They can't define what proportional means. I have yet to see a specific example of what it means..

Someone points a gun at me that is loaded. What's a proportional response?

You know in law we say use reasonable force when attacked, but its an open ended definition precisely because it depends on each fact circumstance.

You think you can come up with what proportional response means with terrorists? Really?

You in fact mean do not shoot back. So what is proportional then? In your world if Hamas chooses to place itself behind civilians and in civilian corridors and sites, they get a green card.

In real life it can not work that way. If Israel did not respond, they would not exist. You do not get that. I do. I lived there. You can't sit on your ass when someone shoots missiles at your face or blows your children, schools, movie theatres.

Yes people criticize Israel.Look who does-people who have never lived in a war zone. People who take their freedoms for granted. They do not realize to have what they have meant soldiers during WW2 had to do things so we could live like this and some of those things meant the death of civilians.

Its why all ombat soldiers regret what they have done and have nightmares-they always ask themselves, could I have done something else.

Wel that's b..s. They did what they had to do. The moment we have to use soldiers to do our dirty work we have failed as a society and lecturing those soldiers on how to attack is ludicrous.

When a soldier is in the heat of battle, they do what they have to do. You can second guess it but its not going to change the fact that terrorism does not allow soldiers the luxury of acting proportionally or any other way you think civil. Its not how it works.

As it is you can criticize the IDF all you want but its soldiers died engaging in restraint so they would not get civilians killed. That you have no idea about. You do not get that IDF on the ground ambushed have chosen to die rather then call in air cover so they will not kill civilians.

You do not discuss the 5 minute warnings, the pamphlets, the warnings given. You act as if Israel acted in cold blood.

That is why I challenged your discourse. Its unrealistic, one sided and it expects a standard from the IDF that you do not expect from anyone else.

Or do you? Do you ask we do nothing when terrorists attack and hide behind civilians?

What next would you pay them off to release hostages like European countries do? Is that what you think we should do?

You think ISIS will go away if the air attacks on it are proportional? What the hell does that mean?

I can say this because I am trying to understand your post. In regards to the war with Hezbollah, I myself, was of the stated opinion on this forum that Israel should not have engaged in an air war, but sent in small, elite commando units engaging in hit and run on Hezbollah.

The IDF argued for that plus a more conventional ground war.

The Prime Minister and others at the time felt any ground action was futile and would be ineffective. Its easy to second guess what Israel should have done. The fact is Hezbollah said they would disarm when Israel withdrew from Lebanon. They lied and did the exact opposite and in effect seized control of Lebanon as Israel warned would happen. They immediately began launching missiles into Israel just as Hamas did when Israel withdrew from Gaza.

You want proportional behaviour? What is Israel supposed to lie as well. If Israel were to engage in proportional behaviour then it would be kidnapping Palestinians, sending in terrorist bombers,.

You have proof Israel sits around and plans to kill children or civilians? You really think the IDF generals sit there and say, let's see how many people we can kill today?

You know who is in the IDF? I do, They are civilians like you and me called up to defend their country. They do not have the luxury like you and me to never have to join the armed forces. They are on call until 65. You think they go off to war singing songs wanting to kill children?

Look again. You have them mixed up with the terrorists you do not discuss.

Now in regards to the settlement issue, which to me exasperates tension I am on record as being in favour of Israel withdrawing from most of thee West Bank to a secure border but that will not happen at this time...not with Fatah Hawks and the other 50 -300 terror cells on the West Bank remaining armed. If the terrorists disarm like the IRA did, and genuinely announced they were renouncing terror and recognize a Jewish state, the IDF would be a moot point and return to their barracks inside pre 1967 Israel.

Do I think that latest confiscation of land by Netanyahu in retaliation for the kidnappings was a smart move? No. I think it will merely incite more anger,

[Rue]

Bob your further response to me was also illogical. You contnue to make a subjective assumption Netanyahu is apathetic towards Palestinian civilian lives.

You make that assumption based on assuming since he overseas the IDF who shot back at Hamas and civilians were killed, he didn't care about those civilians.

you have zero proof as to what Netanyahu felt or thought. Zero proof. You assume.

Using your argument Truman was apathetic about Japanese civilian lives. So was Churchill, so is any officer or soldier who has had to kill someone during war.

You think that is logical?

Of course its not. You throw out a blanket assumption that all these people are apathetic which is a half assed way of saying, cold blooded. Why not just accuse them all of being cold blooded.

Now do explain how you know this. Have you spoken with Netanyahu or the IDF soldiers? Well have you?

You are quick to cast pronouncement on their feelings by suggesting they have none. Do tell me what psycho-metric testing did you use.

Oh wait, you didn;t. What you do however is engage in arm chair expertise.

You thousands of miles removed from the conflict zone in a world where terrorism is not a fact, and you make assumptions.

You make assumptions based on the fact that you know tsrael should either not defend itself at all, or better still when being shot at should not do a thing if Hamas hides behind civilians.

Using your reasoning, its o.k. Israeli civilians die, but if Palestinian civilians die well then Netanyahu is apathetic.

In your fantasy world of selective morality and assumptions. Netanyahu could not possibly be acting as he does because he in fact is not apathetic but cares about life and he does what he does because he feels he has no other choice if he is to protect the lives of his people. No that can not possibly be. As well in your fantasy world, Hamas is not apathetic about its own civilians lives which is what triggered this last war.

No not you, You have it all figured out. The apathy is only with big bad Benji.

Stop misstating what I said.

I stated and I repeat again, Hamas is morally culpable for each and every Palestinian civilian death and the consequences of their actions. They had a choice-recognize Israel as a state, live peacefully beside Israel. They chose instead to embrace a charter and set of beliefs that believes its holy and divine to kill its people in the name of Allah to achieve a one world dhumma where a Muslim caliphate rules and not just Israelis but Jews are removed from the face of the earth.

You want to judge Netanyahu's morality. I have stated it clearly. His first moral responsibility is to assure his citizens live.

Now you want to claim he is not doing that but instead has nothing better to do then plan the death of Palestinians, prove it.

Hamas' charter proves its intent is to violate international law and engage in cold blooded murder and terrorism.

What you have with Israel is you claiming to know how Netanyahu feels when having to deal with terrorists bent on killing his people.

You know. You are the expert.

Does Netanyahu have moral culpability-he would if you can prove he deliberately ordered the killing of innocent civilians.

You have zero proof of that. What you have though is your political bias against Netanyahu and Israel and your anger for feeling slighted by me when I respond to your words.

Yah yah, Netanyahu is a baby killer. Bad bad baby killer. Horrible evil demon. Bad bad bad.

[jbg]

I stated and I repeat again, Hamas is morally culpable for each and every Palestinian civilian death and the consequences of their actions. They had a choice-recognize Israel as a state, live peacefully beside Israel. They chose instead to embrace a charter and set of beliefs that believes its holy and divine to kill its people in the name of Allah to achieve a one world dhumma where a Muslim caliphate rules and not just Israelis but Jews are removed from the face of the earth.

You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately the West wishes to indulge a fantasy that this is about Israel. This is about Islam's drive for a caliphate. The problem that the West has is that opposing the caliphate drive is going to take the mass infliction of casualties. If Protective Edge and Cast Lead are too much for the West to take we may be doomed to dhimmitude.