kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[John]

Would Israel fulfill all of the conditions?

Israel didn't accept so this question is moot.

[jacee]

What do you mean?

Israel wants all the land,

from the Jordan River to the sea, including Gaza and the West Bank. But they don't want the Palestinian people who live there, many descended from refugees displaced when Israel was formed.

The Arab population would overwhelm the Jewish population.

.

[jacee]

Israel didn't accept so this question is moot.

What reasons did Israel give?

Because the proposal looked pretty reasonable to the rest of the world, and to many Israelis.

But the current Israeli government doesn't want peace.

They want Palestine.

.

[John]

I don't know the specific reasons they gave...but perhaps it's because they don't trust Hamas. It seems that a lot of the demands would place security into the hands of the UN. Once Israel handed over responsibility to the UN, Hamas could go back to their old ways without fear of Israel disrupting the new order by interfering with UN peace keepers.

Can you point to anything which would suggest that Hamas can be trusted to keep their end of the bargain?

So you say that Israel doesn't want peace but it's really Hamas which doesn't want peace. Hamas didn't need to start lobbing missiles. But they did. Isreal said STOP, and they didn't. Israel said STOP again, and they didn't. Israel said STOP, OR WE'RE COMING IN...and Hamas kept going. So...seriously...what are they supposed to do? Let Hamas keep shooting in the hopes that their Iron Dome protects them indefinitely? No other country would ever be held to that kind of standard.

[Shady]

Israel wants all the land,from the Jordan River to the sea, including Gaza and the West Bank. But they don't want the Palestinian people who live there, many descended from refugees displaced when Israel was formed.

The Arab population would overwhelm the Jewish population.

.

No, they don't want all the land, Gaza or the West Bank. You're completely wrong.

[jacee]

Can you point to anything which would suggest that Hamas can be trusted to keep their end of the bargain?

Can you point to anything that says Israel can be trusted to keep their end of the bargain?

Oh wait!. Israel refuses to talk about peace!

.

[Hal 9000]

Can you point to anything that says Israel can be trusted to keep their end of the bargain?

Oh wait!. Israel refuses to talk about peace!

.

What, are gonna play the rubber and glue game next?

The proposal did nothing but leave Israel vulnerable to more attacks. At this point, there will be no peace while Hamas is in charge - Israel will make sure of that. All of Israel is behind Netanyahu in this. It's too bad that the palestinians seem to think Hamas is there for them.

Again I ask, what is Hamas' plan?

[Argus]

And perhaps they have empathy for what's happening outside their country. I certainly encourage my adult children to look outside our country and observe what's happening outside our country.

Were that the case we'd see and hear more about the horrors in Syria and Iraq and Chad and Sudan and Ethiopia and Somalia and Eritrea, instead of such focus on the minor dustup -- and it is VERY minor compared to the misery in other places -- in Palestine.

[Argus]

Nice, so this Israeli soldier that was apparently captured, which gave way to Israels 'you broke the cease fire', turns out the dude died in battle and was not captured at all.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-conflict-missing-israeli-soldier-declared-dead-1.2725940

And some say Israel never breaks cease fires.

It was the attack on that group of soldiers, the suicide bombing and attempt to kidnap which broke the cease fire. Hell, even the UN agrees on that much...

[Boges]

Is it not interesting that governments the world over aren't really coming out publicly and condemning Israel outright. Especially in the Arab world.

Is it because governments see Hamas and ISIS and fear the Fundamentalist Islam might take control of their governments should it be allowed to proliferate?

In Egypt they wanted democracy and got the Muslim Brotherhood so given the choice they went back to being run by the military rather than the Church.

[Argus]

There appear to be moderates on both sides. Unfortunately, nobody seems to want to listen to them.

Every conflict in history has had people on each side who disagreed with how the conflict was being prosecuted. This is hardly profound. Some want a more vigorous prosecution, while some want surrender. But none of them are in power, so that is of very little importance.

[WestCoastRunner]

Is it not interesting that governments the world over aren't really coming out publicly and condemning Israel outright. Especially in the Arab world.

That doesn't make this conflict right and if you look more closely, you can see that some jewish leaders and organizations are not agreeing with Israel. Some also do not speak out for fear of being ostracized by the jewish community. Here are some members of the jewish community who are against these attacks.

Henry Siegman, the former head of the American Jewish Congress and the Synagogue Council of America, discusses the assault on Gaza in an interview. Here is an excerpt.

Commenting on Israeli justifications for killing Palestinians in the name of self-defense from 1948 through today, Siegman responds: "If you don’t want to kill Palestinians, if that’s what pains you so much, you don’t have to kill them. You can give them their rights, and you can end the occupation. And to put the blame for the occupation and for the killing of innocents that we are seeing in Gaza now on the Palestinians — why? Because they want a state of their own? They want what Jews wanted and achieved? This is a great moral insult."

Dov Waxman, a professor of political science and Israel studies at Northeastern University and the author of “The Pursuit of Peace and the Crisis of Israeli Identity: Defending/Defining the Nation, wrote a column for the 'The Jewish Daily Forward' entitled 'Where is Our Compasson'. Here is an excerpt:

"To sympathize with Palestinian suffering is not to condemn Israel or condone Hamas; it is simply an expression of our humanity, as well as of our Jewish values. The ardent desire to demonstrate solidarity with Israel should not come at the expense of our humanitarian consciences. This not only erodes our moral character as individuals and as a community, but also risks alienating many Jews who rightly agonize over the humanitarian costs of Israeli military actions. As human beings and Jews, we should never let our support for Israel harden our hearts to the suffering of others"

Jews Against Genocide

hold memorials for the killed Palestinian children.

[WestCoastRunner]

This conflict is also working against Israel with the rise of more anti-semitic demonstrations and attacks on synagogues around the world, especially in Europe.

Pro-Gaza protests worldwide tainted by anti-Semitism

[DogOnPorch]

Says more about the nature of the demonstrators than the nature of Israel if they're stooping to Jew-hatred in general.

[John]

Can you point to anything that says Israel can be trusted to keep their end of the bargain?

Oh wait!. Israel refuses to talk about peace!

.

Hamas offered and Israel rejected so to press the question of IF Israel would have kept their end of the bargain is, once again, moot.

Can you, or can you not, explain why Hamas should be trusted? They are the ones who offered the ceasefire and you're standing up for them. Can you tell us why they should be trusted?

[dre]

Hamas offered and Israel rejected so to press the question of IF Israel would have kept their end of the bargain is, once again, moot.

Can you, or can you not, explain why Hamas should be trusted? They are the ones who offered the ceasefire and you're standing up for them. Can you tell us why they should be trusted?

Neither side can be trusted... but if theres any desire for peace you STILL have to keep negotiating, and keep trying. We negotiated with the Soviets at the height of the coldwar even when they talking about burying us. There was certainly no mutual trust then.

In any case what Israel WOULD be doing if it was interested in a negotiated solution (and it obviously isnt), is negotiating with the PA in the west bank. The PA there is the most moderate that there ever has been, and they have made a lot of progress stopping attacks, etc. But Israels response is to punish them for it by building more settlements... this is going to help and strengthen the hawks if Abbas is unable to produce any results with a more moderate and peaceful approach.

[scribblet]

Trust has to be earned and up to now Hamas has not earned any trust. Israel isn't stupid enough to accept their terms knowing that opening the borders and trade would result in an arms buildup for Hamas. Is there any reason for us to believe that Hamas would NOT bring in more fire power and build up their arsenals with the intent of obliterating Israel after this ten year truce? So far there is nothing to indicate Hamas can be trusted.

It's not only Hamas either, there are other splinter groups doing their own terrorist thing who are not controlled by Hamas.

Talking about reporting from other countries, not much is said in our MSM about how Hamas controls the media and restricts their output.

[WestCoastRunner]

Says more about the nature of the demonstrators than the nature of Israel if they're stooping to Jew-hatred in general.

I'm not agree with the anti-semetic demonstrations. What Israel is doing is promoting hatred towards themselves.

[John]

To say Israel doesn't want peace because they are not negotiating RIGHT NOW doesn't really prove the point.

I'm sure we weren't negotiating with the Soviets around the clock and I'm sure that, during the Cold War, there were times when relations were good and times when they were bad.. And maybe sometimes, when they were bad, we weren't all that many negotiations going on.

Israel will negotiate when the time is right for them...just like any other country would be expected to. Hamas would do no less.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Israel will negotiate when the time is right for them...just like any other country would be expected to. Hamas would do no less.

Agreed...why hold Israel to a different standard ? Did Canada negotiate with the Taliban for a ten year cease fire ?

[Big Guy]

Latest score in Hamas/Israel semi-finals;

Gaza officials say 1,831 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed and more than a quarter of the impoverished enclave's 1.8 million residents displaced. As many as 3,000 Palestinian homes have been destroyed or damaged.

Israel has lost 64 soldiers in combat and three civilians to Palestinian cross-border rocket and mortar fire that has emptied many of its southern villages. Iron Dome interceptors, air raid sirens and public shelters have helped stem Israeli casualties.

Oh yes, and it looks like somebody is playing outside the Gaza stadium;

In Jerusalem, a Palestinian driving an excavator ran over and killed an Israeli and then overturned a bus, in what police described as a terrorist attack. Police shot the excavator driver dead; there were no passengers on the bus.

After a 7 hour break, the game continues. Stay tuned for the latest score!

[dre]

To say Israel doesn't want peace because they are not negotiating RIGHT NOW doesn't really prove the point.

Well... the current party in charge has it right in their constitution that they will NEVER allow any arab state west of the Jordan. So its really clear they dont want peace.

And like I said... we have the most moderate PA in the west bank in history... and instead of negotiating with them Israel is trying to undermine them.

Israel wants peace about as much as you want genital herpes.

[jbg]

I am responding to Moonlight Graham's post here rather than in the "West surrender" thread (link to thread) since this is the more appropriate home for a response.

(Neither) Israel nor Palestinians/Hamas have a right to target civilians.

True.

That said, Israel won't allow Palestinians n a military and Israel will destroy it in 5 seconds during any conflict, such as the one happening right now. But Palestinians do have a right to defend themselves (though again, not through means of terror). You want Palestinians to be uniformed, but if they were they'd be destroyed within 5 seconds by Israel. So essentially you want Palestinians and Hamas to have no real fighting capabilities.

Against whom would they be "defending" themselves?

I'm also guessing you don't want Palestinian militants/fighters/military of any kind to be able to hide amongst civilians because it's "cowardly" or "chicken" (but i'm assuming you don't think it's cowardly or chicken for IDF to drop bombs from jets 2000 ft above any possible threat). So here's what the Israeli gov & i'm assuming you also want: Any Palestinian fighters to be uniformed & out in the open & not hiding amongst civilians, and with little to no modern military weaponry that could hit Israel from range (missiles, rockets, mortars, tanks, navy, jets, nukes etc.). So basically you want them to be sitting ducks and destroyed within 5 seconds during any conflict.

The IDF is dropping bombs because Hamas has seen fit to develop an infrastructure whose design and purpose is to target Israeli civilians. Would you prefer a ground invasion or a re-occupation?

Meanwhile is it ok for Israel to have a well-funded state-of-the-art military and completely unregulated nukes? Sounds fair. "But Israel doesn't target civilians!". Bullshit we're seeing it right now.

Are you saying that someone should set up Hamas so that it can engage in a military struggle with Israel? Has any enemy in the history of war deliberately set up its adversary to destroy it at a later date?

Also, If there's ever a 2-state solution, states need a military. But will a Palestinian state ever be allowed to build a modern military? How about nukes? Probably not, so I'm guessing the status quo works pretty good for Israel, so why would they EVER want 2-state solution?

I am not going to repeat comments elsewhere that describe that msot of Europe and Japan was left to entrust their defense, effectively, to the U.S., Britain, France and (unfortunately to some extent) the U.S.S.R.; the so-called "four power" arrangement after WW II. There is no current legitimate purpose for a Palestinian military. A police force, yes, military,no.

For whatever reason the Arabs either started or provoked the 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars, and supported much additional asymetrical warfare and bloodshed. Their status is as a military loser. Far better than Japan treated conquered parts of China during the Rape of Nanking.

[John]

Israel seems to be at peace with Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon and we don't hear much from the West Bank these days. In fact things were pretty peaceful until Hamas started throwing missiles at Israel.

Your point about the Likud Constitution is enlightening for me personally. But that still doesn't mean Israel doesn't want peace. While international consensus is that the 2-state solution is the best solution, it doesn't mean that it's the only one possible.

[jbg]

But that still doesn't mean Israel doesn't want peace. While international consensus is that the 2-state solution is the best solution, it doesn't mean that it's the only one possible.

I waver on the two-state solution. It seems like another salami-slice of Israel. Shouldn't the Arabs be contributing land and/or money to make a "Palestinian" state viable? Edited August 4, 2014 by jbg