ISIS Declares Islamic State.

[Rue]

How do you misunderstand what is going on in the Middle East this badly?

Arab Nationalism was relevant in the second half of the 20th century, especially in the 60s, 70s and 80s. What do you think the Ba'ath Party is?

Sadam Hussein, Bashar Al-Assad and Hosni Mubarak are all Arab Nationalists.

Arab nationalism is in decline. To suggest that the growing threat of ISIS or the Arab spring are a result of Arab nationalism is to suggest something that is very far from the truth. ISIS and other Islamist groups (like the Muslim Brotherhood) reject nationalism completely. These groups want to abolish borders and nations in order to unite the entire world under a global caliphate.

-1 excellent post. Unfortunately probably missed on its audience.

[overthere]

How do you misunderstand what is going on in the Middle East this badly?

Arab Nationalism was relevant in the second half of the 20th century, especially in the 60s, 70s and 80s. What do you think the Ba'ath Party is?

Sadam Hussein, Bashar Al-Assad and Hosni Mubarak are all Arab Nationalists.

Arab nationalism is in decline. To suggest that the growing threat of ISIS or the Arab spring are a result of Arab nationalism is to suggest something that is very far from the truth. ISIS and other Islamist groups (like the Muslim Brotherhood) reject nationalism completely. These groups want to abolish borders and nations in order to unite the entire world under a global caliphate.

Good post. What is happening with ISIS and other groups is the opposite of Arab nationalism.

Arab nationalism has a long and regretfully unsuccessful history, many worthy causes derailed for various reasons. Arab Spring was a recent example of efforts in many places to effect change. The jury is still out on how well it worked.

[GostHacked]

What is so fundamentally difference from what we have seen happen in Europe? For all intents and purposes, borders in Europe really do not exist under the new conglomerate of the European Union. Economic and military policies are being standardized among those nations to make them all the same and to play on the same game field.

We see other regions start to progress to something similar. Asian countries starting to band together much like the EU. We even see an African Union that is taking shape. So I really do not see anything different with the notion of the Islam caliphate, other than using religion as an excuse instead of economics.

[dre]

These groups want to abolish borders and nations in order to unite the entire world under a global caliphate.

In the case of ISIS thats not the issue.

ISIS is the manifestation of frustration among Sunni Iraqis and Syrians at almost complete disenfranchisement. In Syria theyve been forced to live under the political domination of an Allawite minority, and in Iraq they have been forced to live under a Shia Iranian proxy after the Baathists were removed from power in OPERATION: OOPS! Didnt think THAT one through!!! So they want to remove the political boundary between Iraqi and Syrian sunnis and consolidate those populations into a strong block that controls a bigger area. They wont make any substancial gains of Shia or Kurdish terroritory but they might successfully keep much of the Sunni territory they already have.

It most certainly IS a kind of nationalism.

[jbg]

Does anybody really think that the average Arab is better off in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya and surrounding nations is better off than he/she was before our “expeditions” into their nations?

Does anyone think that the average Arab has benefited from the activity that provoked these "expeditions"?

[dre]

What is so fundamentally difference from what we have seen happen in Europe? For all intents and purposes, borders in Europe really do not exist under the new conglomerate of the European Union. Economic and military policies are being standardized among those nations to make them all the same and to play on the same game field.

We see other regions start to progress to something similar. Asian countries starting to band together much like the EU. We even see an African Union that is taking shape. So I really do not see anything different with the notion of the Islam caliphate, other than using religion as an excuse instead of economics.

If they are successful in holding the territory they have taken you will see a new Sunni state. Muslims dont get along well enough to run an Islamic caliphate. What we are seeing here is just more typical sectarian in-fighting that will probably result in more borders, not less.

[overthere]

What is so fundamentally difference from what we have seen happen in Europe? For all intents and purposes, borders in Europe really do not exist under the new conglomerate of the European Union. Economic and military policies are being standardized among those nations to make them all the same and to play on the same game field.

We see other regions start to progress to something similar. Asian countries starting to band together much like the EU. We even see an African Union that is taking shape. So I really do not see anything different with the notion of the Islam caliphate, other than using religion as an excuse instead of economics.

You are overstating the reach of the EU, which has taken a step back/timeout after the financial adventures of the last several years left a lot of people wondering where it is all going.. The 'open borders' are not universal in the EU, neither is use of the Euro. Several countries have strong grassroots opposition to continued EU membership, and the EU has taken a step back.

The recession was not handled well, neither was the near meltdown of PIGS(Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). Although they sort of have a monetary policy, it is obvious that they need a much more integrated fiscal policy to react effectively. And they don't, because that would require a much stronger loss of sovereignty than at present, a willingness to allow Brussels to run it all. And that just won't wash right now, Yurp is filled with old fights and mistrust at that level of loss of national control. It's one thing to have Brussels dictate the Yurpeen standards for condoms, quite another to have your economy controlled by Belgium.

You are right on the mega alliances though, doesn't this all look a whole bunch Orwellian? North Aerican Free trade, now spreading to South America. Europe united. Asia united. He just had the wrong year....

[Bonam]

In the case of ISIS thats not the issue.

ISIS is the manifestation of frustration among Sunni Iraqis and Syrians at almost complete disenfranchisement.

When you're "frustrated", cut people's heads off, slaughter minorities, capture women and sell them as slaves, etc. It's not an expression of their "disenfranchisement", it's an expression of their savagery, cruelty, and wanton disregard for human life.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Bonam

[Solidarity]

ISIS is an enigma of sorts. They are obviously brutal, uncompromising militants, capable of gross crimes against humanity. However they are also well organized, well financed, and well supplied fighters. Their logistical networks extend into many western countries, with their manpower and finance coming mainly, but not only from the jihadi hotspots (chechnya, iraq, afghanistan, libya, egypt, turkey, gulf states) but also from NA and EUR. They have been fighting not only against the Iraqi army, and Syrian army, but have been devouring Al-nusra and other jihadi groups, with the same sort of mentality they show to religious minorities (convert from al-nusra to isis or die).

Western powers have had a mild response to the rise of IS, contrast Libya's 14,202 strike sorties with the ~100 undertaken against ISIS to date. We practically left them alone until they seized Mosul Dam and were pushing into Kurdistan. This is despite the fact they are operating with significant amounts of US military kit seized from Iraq, or seized from wherever they ended up after being given to 'moderates' in Syria. Since the Yazidi massacre we have moved to arm the Kurds and provided humanitarian aid, but really, not that much more. Obviously there is resistance in the west against more middle eastern military adventures, so it's possible this is purely politics. Even so, Obama claiming the US had 'no strategy' to deal with ISIS two months after they seized Mosul, and months after they had existed as a serious force in Syria was perplexing.

So what is ISIS. A cog in a trans-national plot to keep the Arab world in continual turmoil and violence? A way to suck all the radical jihadi's out of western countries and drop them in Syria/Iraq? An attempt to draw Iran into a perpetual shia-sunni conflict by waging war against Shia/Iran backed Baghdad gov't? A resurgence of Baathist party officials and Sunnis dis-affected by the Shia led iraqi government? A true jihadi movement for a caliphate, against the western system of nation states? A western tool to be used against Al-qaeda and Al-Assad?

Frankly I don't think any of us know what the truth is. Weird crap like John McCain potentially meeting with Abu-Bakr Al-Baghdadi months ago keeps me suspicious.

http://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/cnn_screenshot_johnmccain_speaking_with_isis_chief_abu_bakr_al-baghdadi.jpg

http://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/john_mccain_with_isis_chief_abu_bakr_al-baghdadi_n_terrorist_muahmmad_noor.jpg

I mean I'm not 100% sure that it is Abu-Bakr Al-Baghdadi, but it sure as hell looks like him.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/iITw0MEY60U/0.jpg

http://www.worldtribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/pic_giant_071414_SM_Abu-Bakr-al-Baghdadi.jpg

[overthere]

One thing ISIS has accomplished: they have pretty much ensured the partition of Iraq. No way the Kurds can stick around now, they have to split.

[dre]

When you're "frustrated", cut people's heads off, slaughter minorities, capture women and sell them as slaves, etc. It's not an expression of their "disenfranchisement", it's an expression of their savagery, cruelty, and wanton disregard for human life.

[Big Guy]

If you actually believe that Isis is "just like us" then I just have one question: what planet do you live on? The one I live on has churchs, various stripes. It also has mosques. I can go to all of them if I want, or none of them if I want. My head will very likely remain firmly attached to my neck regardless.

How do you misunderstand what is going on in the Middle East this badly?

Arab Nationalism was relevant in the second half of the 20th century, especially in the 60s, 70s and 80s. What do you think the Ba'ath Party is?

Sadam Hussein, Bashar Al-Assad and Hosni Mubarak are all Arab Nationalists.

Arab nationalism is in decline. To suggest that the growing threat of ISIS or the Arab spring are a result of Arab nationalism is to suggest something that is very far from the truth. ISIS and other Islamist groups (like the Muslim Brotherhood) reject nationalism completely. These groups want to abolish borders and nations in order to unite the entire world under a global caliphate.

I had forgotten that the posters who choose to read my opinion and consider it to be from an extraterrestrial who is exhibiting a complete misunderstanding of what is happening in that area in control of monsters and psychopaths come from a generation that is not mine.

I remember the “Yellow Menace” or ”Yellow Peril” and the “Hun Menace”as portrayed by our government during the last big war. These slant eyed monsters and square heads were killing, raping and pillaging on their way to the domination of the earth;

https://www.google.ca/search?q=japan+world+war+2+propaganda+posters&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=R2UGVL6JK4HD8AHg84CQCg&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=725

Or how about those “Evil Huns” who were bayoneting, raping and savaging the good people of the world?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=japan+world+war+2+propaganda+posters&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=R2UGVL6JK4HD8AHg84CQCg&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=725#q=germany+world+war+2+propaganda+posters&tbm=isch

There was obviously something in their genes or culture that made them these monsters who should be eradicated. We believed it and when the Americans dropped those bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki obliterating, roasting and vaporizing about 200,000 innocent old men, women and children we thought that they deserved it because there was something wrong with “them”.

In Canada, we were so sure that it was a genetic or race “thing” that we we collected every Canadian who looked like them. Put them into concentration camps and appropriated all their land and assets. Well, to-day, we stand hat in hand in lines hoping to get a job in those factories that they own in Canada. BTW, their emperor is still there.

And those Germans and Adolf (with that weird moustache) who were nuts. Later we found out that all those other Germans were really nice people, perhaps easily led, but who were really nice people. The Germans are now the major economic force in the EU and the West continues to court their trade and involvement.

Even in Vietnam where those evil communists were going to take over the world, we were told if the “Gooks” were not stopped there then the “ domino theory” predicted that soon the Gooks and communism would be at our doorstep.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=gooks+vietnam&sa=N&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=i20GVLnkKOnE8AHRjoHIAg&ved=0CDYQsAQ4Cg&biw=1024&bih=725

But I digress. It is obvious from the reaction to my post that I am completely out of touch of how this world works and the Islamic Muslim or whatever threat is originated from crazies, this is the first time we have dealt with such a threat and we should believe everything that our governments tell us. Good grief!

“Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” - George Santayana

[On Guard for Thee]

You do digress. Isis should be blown off the face of the planet.

[Big Guy]

When you're "frustrated", cut people's heads off, slaughter minorities, capture women and sell them as slaves, etc. It's not an expression of their "disenfranchisement", it's an expression of their savagery, cruelty, and wanton disregard for human life.

Hello - It's called war! The idea of decapitation in war is nothing new. Too bad we did not have the ipods and cameras in the old days. The Japanese (those guys with whom we are trying to get more and more trade and who own a large piece of Canada) used it often and used it well;

http://www.ww2pacific.com/atrocity.html

[Guest]

So we should nuke 'em!

And then, when they've recovered a bit, trade with them.

I'm okay with that.

[-1=e^ipi]

ISIS is the manifestation of frustration among Sunni Iraqis and Syrians at almost complete disenfranchisement. So they want to remove the political boundary between Iraqi and Syrian sunnis and consolidate those populations into a strong block that controls a bigger area. They wont make any substancial gains of Shia or Kurdish terroritory but they might successfully keep much of the Sunni territory they already have.

Sunni disenfranchisement in Syria and Iraq is certainly a contributing factor to the growth of ISIS, but to suggest that it is the main cause of ISIS or that the goal of ISIS is to represent these Sunni Muslims and create a new country out of the Sunni majority lands of Iraq and Syria is ridiculous.

If they wanted to just create a new state out of Sunni territory then that is one thing. But their goal is world domination as it is supposedly prophetized in the Quran and the Hadith. They want to create a new Islamic caliphate that will eventually take over the world. And they are not alone. The Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and many members of the ruling party in Turkey also share this goal.

If the goal really was 'just create a Sunni state' then why is ISIS trying to take over Western Syria, Kurdish territory in Iraq, and Shia territory in Iraq? Why do they consider the Shia to be Kuffar that should be killed? Why are they trying to commit genocide of the Yazidis?

[-1=e^ipi]

If they are successful in holding the territory they have taken you will see a new Sunni state. Muslims dont get along well enough to run an Islamic caliphate.

Uhhh... what about the numerous historical examples of various Islamic Caliphates that lasted centuries? The most recent one being the Ottoman Empire that only collapsed after the first world war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Caliphate

Edited September 3, 2014 by -1=e^ipi

[-1=e^ipi]

No way the Kurds can stick around now, they have to split.

But the thing about the Kurds splitting is that Turkey will never allow it because of the significant Kurd minority in Turkey. Iran will probably opposite it as well.

[-1=e^ipi]

I remember the “Yellow Menace” or ”Yellow Peril” and the “Hun Menace”as portrayed... blah blah... the “ domino theory” predicted that soon the Gooks and communism would be at our doorstep.

So your entire 'rebuttal' to me pointing out that ISIS and other Islamist groups are not Arab Nationalists is that 'well there was a bunch of western propaganda 70 years ago and during the cold war'?

How does that make sense?

But I digress. It is obvious from the reaction to my post that I am completely out of touch of how this world works and the Islamic Muslim or whatever threat is originated from crazies, this is the first time we have dealt with such a threat and we should believe everything that our governments tell us. Good grief!

Uhh, no. Western governments were stupid enough to blindly fund the 'rebels' in Syria in the first place in order to wage a proxy war against Russia.

[Solidarity]

But the thing about the Kurds splitting is that Turkey will never allow it because of the significant Kurd minority in Turkey. Iran will probably opposite it as well.

This might have been the situation a year ago, but it is not now. Turkey has great economic benefit from a growing Kurdistan, lots of $$$ to be made piping Kurdish oil, especially now they posses the kirkuk fields. AKP has signaled they have no problem with an independent Kurdistan, heck they are even moving towards a federal model for the kurds within turkey. Iran was the first to provide aid to the Kurds, per Barzani so I don't think they will kick up much of a fuss as long as the KRG respects Iranian territorial integrity, which they will.

[Bonam]

I hope the Kurds get their own state. They deserve one.

[Talby]

The sunni vs shia thing is reminiscent of the catholic vs protestant thing. "follow the shoe!"

The only difference is 500 years and "christians" used to burn each other (mostly) and toss the odd person out of a window as opposed to the hacky hacky choppy choppy these guys like. Comes with territory I suspect....no wood! But if they had wood, I'd bet they'd build windows just to toss people out off.

IS on the other hand is not dissimilar to Pol Pot's army of displaced kids indoctrinated and trained to hate, torture and kill. Unlike Pol Pot's crew though some of these guys are educated and have(had) a life. Which leads to me believe they aren't all what they are cooked up to be. I have trouble imaging a ex Brit, no matter how radical, or from what ethnic background, who isn't wishing he was at home watching Dr Who instead of stuck on guard duty picking sand boogers out of his nose for entertainment. Or alternately an american who isn't dreaming of some super sized processed drive through thingy with extra possessed cheese as he cuts into a big slice of goat pie for the 6th time in 7 days.

The 'guy' we see on TV, isn't IS. He is the image they are marketing. The rank and file undoubtedly have a marginally greater proportion of psychotards but I suspect they have an equal or greater portion of dudes who despite their religious bent aren't as weird as they would like us to think, or our chicken little western media will latch onto and report.

The bulk of them, are probably hired hands, simply out to make a buck, and will when the money is there (or not) switch teams....as long as the money is there. That is what keeps them going, not idealism. WRT to the few, who are seriously f*cked up psychos, who have cash, are quasi organized and get off on the attention being nutbar attracts, they are a problem. That's why the "west" needs to "repatriate" the ones they can to identify and locate the management, or alternatively send IS some new recruits

[Big Guy]

So your entire 'rebuttal' to me pointing out that ISIS and other Islamist groups are not Arab Nationalists is that 'well there was a bunch of western propaganda 70 years ago and during the cold war'?

...

Uhh, no. It was no rebuttal since there was no original buttal.

My post was a reaction to those who appear to believe that "these" people are somehow subhuman and are the worst thing that has happened on this earth since spandex. The prerequisite to killing people is to dehumanize them through caricature and demeaning propaganda. This makes the carnage more palatable to the folks back home.

In the case of roasting, toasting and vaporising those innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there was little negative reaction since the "good people" back home were convinced that those "Japs deserved it!"

What I am seeing and reading in many of the posts here is that whatever the West does in that part of the world that it will be OK since those "guys in turbans" deserve it.

BTW, what you "point out" is your opinion. While you have the right to it, I have the right to not agree with it.

Looking forward to your re-rebuttal.

[Big Guy]

The sunni vs shia thing is reminiscent of the catholic vs protestant thing. "follow the shoe!"

... or alternatively send IS some new recruits

Not only do I agree with much of your presentation but thoroughly enjoyed your presentation style. Thanks for making my day.

[Boges]

The bulk of them, are probably hired hands, simply out to make a buck, and will when the money is there (or not) switch teams....as long as the money is there. That is what keeps them going, not idealism. WRT to the few, who are seriously f*cked up psychos, who have cash, are quasi organized and get off on the attention being nutbar attracts, they are a problem. That's why the "west" needs to "repatriate" the ones they can to identify and locate the management, or alternatively send IS some new recruits

I'm looking forward to some evidence of this. ISIS are just full of mercenaries? So that's somehow better? They're loping people's domes off and committing mass executions because the money is good?

It would almost be more understandable if they'd do horrible things because they believe in their cause. Not because some Mullah cut them a cheque.

People from the the West could find a lot better and safer ways to make money that going into the crappiest places on earth to kill innocent civilians. They could accomplish that here by selling Heroine.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Boges