?Impact Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: I've read a little. Found it hard to read. Page after page of praise and submission, but not a lot of useful info. IE good brainwashing material. I agree, old religious texts don't make for entertaining reading. That said, the Qur'an is full of verses of forgiveness both in terms of Allah forgiving people and instructions for people to be forgiving of each other. There are also a few verses where Allah is not forgiving however. Mercy is also found throughout, although it is not as big a topic as forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Islam = Submission Not something else. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. https://quran.com/9:29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Saudi women and men create video protesting male guardianship. Muslims trying to progress, even in Saudi! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, dialamah said: Saudi women and men create video protesting male guardianship. Muslims trying to progress, even in Saudi! Why would Islam need to progress? Isn't it perfect, already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Just quickly looking for whether there are internal controls for interpretations of Islam/Koran (there appears to be no internal controls for how followers interpret the Koran, at this point in my search) - I did find this article, which was interesting: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/are-peaceful-muslims-in-denial-about-their-religion-10084960.html I bolded the parts that are interesting to me: Quote The Koran clearly states that it contains two types of verses: context-independent verses, and context-dependent verses. Context-independent verses are unambiguous and timeless principles which can be applied in every situation. Context-dependent verses are those that are specific to particular situations, and can’t be read in isolation. The Koran then goes on to condemn those who cherry-pick verses to suit their own selfish ends, and tells its reader to take all the verses together before coming to any conclusions. "Peace" is one of the literal meanings of Islam, and its ultimate aim. And as such, it explicitly teaches that there is no compulsion in matters of faith. Regarding war, it teaches that Muslims are only ever allowed permitted to fight defensively, stating that "permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged – and Allah indeed has the power to help them". Quote The verses that are often quoted by critics are, like those at the beginning, cherry-picked context-dependent verses. They were only applicable at a time when war had been openly declared against Muslims because of their faith. They were being driven out of their homes and routinely assassinated. "Fight them until there is no persecution and religion is freely professed for Allah", says the Koran. But if they stop oppressing you, it warns, then remember that "no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors". Verses such as these mention fighting "disbelievers" because the division of the two sides was one of belief – non-Muslims who were the aggressors, and Muslims, who were being killed for their acceptance of Islam. As for how Muslims should co-exist with peaceful people of other beliefs, the Koran couldn’t be clearer: "Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes". For everyone else, it is taught that you should be kind and act fairly towards them. So just to be clear: Islam is not simply a matter of interpretation, because the Koran itself tells us how to interpret it. Any other interpretation is either willfully dishonest or just plain ignorant. While this all sounds okay (merely "okay"), even this interpretation is open to interpretation - any Muslim can declare war on anyone he/she personally feels is making war about their faith. I've seen this attitude many times amongst Muslims - Altai is a perfect example - anyone who disagrees with her on anything is fit for war - so by extention, her hatred of anything to do with the West is perfectly justified in her eyes. She has said over and over that if you disagree with her on anythng, she will "bang you sooooooo bad", Turkey will send a fleet to expel all Canadians from the land, we're all dishonest and must leave the forum on her orders. This overreaction to being disagreed with is extremely common amongst Muslims. Their interpretation of what constitutes "war" is fluid and can encompass anything and everything. The worst they can say or do about those who choose to interpret Islam in a violent way is that they are dishonest and ignorant. Well, golly gee whiz.....name-calling should set those Muslims straight, right? No, sorry, there needs to be some action on Islam's part. This is why I always say, if Islam is to be reformed, it must come from within their own ranks. There has to be something to stop these violent interpretations. I haven't found that fail-safe yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 28 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Why would Islam need to progress? Isn't it perfect, already? Apparently some Muslims disagree with your contention that its perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Goddess said: There has to be something to stop these violent interpretations. I haven't found that fail-safe yet. I find it interestimg that while you've used the quotes to interpret Islam as inherently violent, I would use them to intrepret Islam as inherently peaceful. Funny how interpretation works eh? Edited to add: I do agree that change needs to be supported by leaders in Islam, exactly as Christian leaders have needed to support change. Edited January 4, 2017 by dialamah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, dialamah said: I find it interestimg that while you've used the quotes to interpret Islam as inherently violent, I would use them to intrepret Islam as inherently peaceful. Funny how interpretation works eh? Actually, I did not do that. I said there must be something put in place to stop the violent interpretations. And no where did I say that the violent interpretation was MINE. I pointed out that it is very easy for Muslims to interpret it violently and there seems to be nothing stopping them from doing so, if that's what they wish. Edited January 4, 2017 by Goddess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Goddess said: Actually, I did not do that. I said there must be something put in place to stop the violent interpretations. Which tells me you have intrepreted Islam as violent. I don't see a need for internal controls because I interpret Islam as non-violent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) Just now, dialamah said: I don't see a need for internal controls because I interpret Islam as non-violent. Wonderful. That's great that you interpret it in a non-violent way. What about those who don't? Those who interpret it in a violent way should be free to do so, is what you're saying. Again, I disagree. Edited January 4, 2017 by Goddess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 20 minutes ago, Goddess said: Those who interpret it in a violent way should be free to do so, is what you're saying. If they choose to intrepret it in a violent manner and use that to attack others, they should face consequences; since terrorist activity is universally denounced and illegal, they will face those consequences. In the same way, Christians who choose to intrepret the Bible in such a way as to justify discrimination and violence against gays and abortion doctors will face consequences. If State governments, such as Saudi Arabia, Korea, Russia or Uganda choose to criminalize certain behavior, that is because they are a repressive regime and not because of Islam or Christianity or any other religion. We cannot dictate what people think or believe; we can only take action if/when they act on those beliefs or thoughts. We can also keep showing them other ways of thinking or believing and I've already indicated support for disallowing Islam leaders from preaching violence within Canada for that reason. We already have laws against such things, as my neighbor can attest, but perhaps there is a need and a way to do more to prevent radicalisation within our borders. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure its not blaming Islam with the idea that fixing Islam would solve the issue of human rights abuses and terrorism around the world. The people who hate the west enough to wage war through terrorism are not going to stop even if Islam changed or was eliminated. They would just find another reason and we'd still be facing the same challenges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Goddess said: Wonderful. That's great that you interpret it in a non-violent way. What about those who don't? Gee, maybe we should screen those out and not let them come here to Canada... Just a thought.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, Argus said: Gee, maybe we should screen those out and not let them come here to Canada... Just a thought.. And given the opportunity to do just that, you declined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 4 hours ago, dialamah said: Apparently some Muslims disagree with your contention that its perfect. Yeah? Which ones claim the Quran isn't the word of Allah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Anthony Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Folks, Please avoid thread drift. HINT: Reading something that happened "This week...." is not the same as reading something written hundreds of years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Another Islamic terror attack...in Florida...yes...old hat after only 24 hours. Milo sums it up... A Puerto Rican Alaskan Muslim walks into an airport... But...good news...no need to worry about evil "Trump supporters" getting kidnapped and tortured. That's an even older hat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said: Another Islamic terror attack...in Florida...yes...old hat after only 24 hours. Esteban Santiago, a U.S. citizen and Iraq War combat veteran, told the FBI voices were urging him to fight for ISIS before he allegedly gunned down 13 people, killing five, at a Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport baggage claim carousel. Santiago, 26, is a former U.S. Army Reservist, born in New Jersey. The shooter – whose troubled behavior had already drawn the attention of the FBI, Army, and Anchorage police – arrived Friday afternoon at the busy airport on a flight from Alaska, with the gun used in the shooting properly stored in his checked baggage. Earlier reports he flew through Canada turned out to be false. He took Delta Flight no. 1088 from Anchorage to Minneapolis and then Delta flight no. 2182 from Minneapolis to Fort Lauderdale. Someone with mental illness, most likely brought on by serving in combat for the US Army. Someone who they already suspected was allowed to check a gun onto a plane. Yes, lets blame the 'Muslims' and ignore the American gun nutter culture and incompetence of US authorities. Love it how they tried to pin this one on Canada, this is just more incompetent Americans. Edited January 7, 2017 by ?Impact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said: A Puerto Rican Alaskan Muslim walks into an airport... I was looking for a cite that he was a recruit for radical Islam, but couldn't find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailman Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Holy cow. If someone has the audacity to spread fake news like this (Puerto Rican Alaskan Muslim), they need to be humiliated publicly. This is just asking for trouble. He was a war veteran who had a mental disease. Is it so hard to accept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 34 minutes ago, Mailman said: Holy cow. If someone has the audacity to spread fake news like this (Puerto Rican Alaskan Muslim), they need to be humiliated publicly. This is just asking for trouble. He was a war veteran who had a mental disease. Is it so hard to accept? Did the MSM tell you that? Or did the gunman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Nobody has said anything that's verified here - neither Mailman nor DoP have given a cite for these points from what I see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Okay...we'll go with your theory that it is a mental illness. Wasn't that the excuse for the last Jihad attack? And the one before that... Nothing to do with Islam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said: Nothing to do with Islam. What is your principle behind accepting mentally ill people's rationale for their action ? When do you accept it and when don't you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 Just now, Michael Hardner said: What is your principle behind accepting mentally ill people's rationale for their action ? When do you accept it and when don't you ? When would you accept it was Islam? I think we've picked our sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailman Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) Wow. If you need a citation for my "claim", then you are absolutely delusional. It has been widely reported that he was mentally ill. Google it. I'm not spoon feeding anyone. I understand some might have an extreme dislike of religion, in this case Islam, but fabricating stories is just childish. Edited January 7, 2017 by Mailman typos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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