Argus Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: So you actually believe Turkey makes Turkey a dangerous place to live...okay, then. The Turkish government certainly does. Let's remember there was peace with the Kurds until Erdogan failed to win a majority in parliament in the next to last elections. He failed to win because a largely Kurdish, centrist party attracted a lot of non-Kurdish votes. So he deliberately re-started the war with the kurds so he could fan the flames of nationalism and win a majority in the following election. It worked, too. And now he's arrested most of the MPs from that party, along with anyone in the media who criticized his government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 6 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: No it wasn't...thus my question. Don't you REALLY mean NATO is to blame? My words stand as they are. Stop making this into something it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 3 hours ago, Argus said: How has Turkey needed any help from anyone? They are a NATO member, and NATO helps out by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, GostHacked said: They are a NATO member, and NATO helps out by default. By default? So anything which goes bad in Turkey is NATO's fault by default? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, Argus said: By default? So anything which goes bad in Turkey is NATO's fault by default? What part of my statement is confusing to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, GostHacked said: What part of my statement is confusing to you? Well its not confusing to me just stupid insipid blather. Blaming Nato for what is going on in Turkey is just down right stupid. Turkey's internal issues have to do with Erdogan supporting ISIL-Daesh and in fact creating it with Obama and Morsi and their failed Muslim Brotherhod Troika.ISIL turned on Erdogan no different than it did Morsi and Obama. The Muslim Brotherhood were always a bunch of rich idiots thinking hey could be a Muslim Masons elitist group and control Sunni extremist terrorists. It blew up in their faces. Erdogan is an extremist and he will die at the hands of extremists,. Its karma. Edited January 2, 2017 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 11 hours ago, Rue said: Well its not confusing to me just stupid insipid blather. Blaming Nato for what is going on in Turkey is just down right stupid. Not really, NATO helped Turkey get into this mess. Erdogan is not acting alone if that is what you were thinking. The meddling in Syria (via the FSA the US supported 'rebels') and Iraq (pushing against the Kurds). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 20 hours ago, GostHacked said: What part of my statement is confusing to you? What part of my question is confusing to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 7 hours ago, GostHacked said: Not really, NATO helped Turkey get into this mess. Erdogan is not acting alone if that is what you were thinking. The meddling in Syria (via the FSA the US supported 'rebels') and Iraq (pushing against the Kurds). Blather. Turkey's problems began when it elected an Islamist to the prime minister's job. He has systematically worked to turn Turkey into an autocratic Islamic police state, including re-starting the war with the Kurds to solve a political issue. His Islamist party is generally sympathetic to ISIS and had no problems helping fund them to cause problems for the government's next door. Erdogan sees himself as the new Sultan and strongman of the middle east and wanted to damage rivals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 Awesome TWO 'blathers'. Great dialogue here, much appreciated. And it seems you did understand what I posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 There's a wide range of of villains we could blame for the violence in Islam - NATO, colonial history, the tough time immigrants have, tradition, pre-Islamic African culture, Western involvment, etc..... But at what point is the religion itself, especially one that encompasses an entire political and social life and system of government, called to account for the kind of life it offers people in the lands in which it predominates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, Goddess said: There's a wide range of of villains we could blame for the violence in Islam - NATO, colonial history, the tough time immigrants have, tradition, pre-Islamic African culture, Western involvment, etc..... But at what point is the religion itself, especially one that encompasses an entire political and social life and system of government, called to account for the kind of life it offers people in the lands in which it predominates? See, here's that broad brush again. While nobody is saying that these countries don't have issues in terms of patriarchy and personal freedoms, it's also true that other countries, who are not Muslim-majority countries, have similar issues - so this is not an "Islam" issue. India's patriarchal system among the worst North Korea unparalleled in human rights abuses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, dialamah said: See, here's that broad brush again. While nobody is saying that these countries don't have issues in terms of patriarchy and personal freedoms, it's also true that other countries, who are not Muslim-majority countries, have similar issues - so this is not an "Islam" issue. India's patriarchal system among the worst North Korea unparalleled in human rights abuses So, at NO POINT, in your mind, is the religion itself to blame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, Goddess said: So, at NO POINT, in your mind, is the religion itself to blame? Nope, not really. It's the interpretation that is to blame. There are many passages in the Koran that talk about respect and tolerance, that forbid violence, that teach that women are equal to men. Some of the stuff in the Koran, good or bad, was lifted from the Christians and Jews in the area. There's an entire sect of Islam that is pacifist; they've taken the peaceful instructions of the Koran as their guide. Even where Islam is the law as well as the religion, there are Muslims who are pushing for progressive reforms - all based on Koranic teachings. As for governments that are repressive - well, that's because they are governments, not because of Islam. Just because the Government of the United States, a Christian nation, engages in torture, it doesn't mean that the Bible, or the Christian faith, or even most Christians, are going to believe torture is right. North Korea has a pretty repressive government; you can't blame that on Islam, so how can you blame Saudi's oppressive regime on Islam? "It's Islam" is too simplistic an answer for the problems that plague these places. For women who love Allah, who see goodness and value in the Koran, telling them their 'religion' is wrong isn't going to help free them from oppressive relationships or culture. Showing them, using the Koran, that they are entitled to equal treatment will - because the Koran also has passages that focus on the equality between men and women. It's the interpretation, and many many Muslims have chosen interpretations that are not violent, are not misogynistic, are not intolerant. We need to build on what progressive interpretation of Islam, not accuse Islam of being unrelentingly evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 Just now, dialamah said: "It's Islam" is too simplistic an answer for the problems that plague these places. I acknowledged that. I said there are many villains that could be blamed and I asked at what point the religion can be blamed. You said at No point is the religion to blame. That's fine. But I disagree. On its great march out of Arabia, Islam proved fertile ground for every anti-woman custom it encountered. It absorbed veils/seclusion in Persia, FGM in Egypt, and when it found societies that never gave women a voice, its own traditions of lively women's participation died out. Why do you think that is? I just don't agree with you that the religion is blameless in the way its followers are acting today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 57 minutes ago, dialamah said: See, here's that broad brush again. While nobody is saying that these countries don't have issues in terms of patriarchy and personal freedoms, it's also true that other countries, who are not Muslim-majority countries, have similar issues - so this is not an "Islam" issue. Yeah it is. No one is saying human rights abuses and backward values exist only in Islamic countries. As you point out, they exist in India and North Korea, among others. That being said, we can witness the progress most of the world has made, particularly in central/south America, over the last generation. Asia has also made progress, including India. Even China has made progress. There has been no progress in Islamic countries. Their values systems are, if anything, more backward than they were fifty or sixty years ago. Violence is more endemic to their cultures than it was fifty or sixty years ago. Bribery and corruption is more commonplace. And there is no sign of any of them, and we're talking of 57 odd countries here, moving forward to join the 20th century, never mind the 21st. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 37 minutes ago, dialamah said: Nope, not really. It's the interpretation that is to blame. There are many passages in the Koran that talk about respect and tolerance, that forbid violence, that teach that women are equal to men. The interpretation IS the religion. It doesn't matter that you believe passages in the koran should be interpreted differently than they are. There are, as you among others have pointed out, many passages in the bible which can be interpreted to condone and incite violence. But they aren't interpreted that way, and no major church thinks they should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Argus said: The interpretation IS the religion. Just as there are significant difference between various Christian churches, do you not see that there can be significant differences between various Mosques? Go to a United Church and then an Assemblies of God church, compare the doctrine and more important talk to the congregation. They are day and night different. Same thing between say a black Baptist church and a Methodist or Presbyterian church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 3 hours ago, Goddess said: There's a wide range of of villains we could blame for the violence in Islam - NATO, colonial history, the tough time immigrants have, tradition, pre-Islamic African culture, Western involvment, etc..... But at what point is the religion itself, especially one that encompasses an entire political and social life and system of government, called to account for the kind of life it offers people in the lands in which it predominates? Well stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 35 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Just as there are significant difference between various Christian churches, do you not see that there can be significant differences between various Mosques? Go to a United Church and then an Assemblies of God church, compare the doctrine and more important talk to the congregation. They are day and night different. Same thing between say a black Baptist church and a Methodist or Presbyterian church. There are 57 Muslim nations around the world and not one of them tolerates any of the moral behavior types banned by the Koran. Pre-marital sex will get you beaten or killed (if you're a woman) in the most tolerant of Muslim nations. There are no gay pride parades in the Muslim world, and none of those nations have any concept of gender equality. So no, I don't think there's enough variation to matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Argus said: I don't think there's enough variation to matter. I used to think there was but don't any more. I have analyzed the situation. Islam does not emphasize the importance of mercy and forgiveness that is at the foundation of western spiritual belief. The basic premise of Christianity, which is important since it formed the basis of western laws, is that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Jesus "paid" for our sins with his life, which means there is a way that provides redemption for our sins, if we repent through Jesus. There is no parallel in Islam, or any other religion that I know of. Only Christianity upholds the values of forgiveness, and mercy, that is so essential to living in civil society. Whether you believe or not doesn't matter. I am pointing out the foundational difference between the two, which finally equates to a cultural difference. Hateful, vengeful religions should be unacceptable to everyone. Edited January 4, 2017 by OftenWrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: I used to think there was but don't any more. I have analyzed the situation. Islam does not emphasize the importance of mercy and forgiveness that is at the foundation of western spiritual belief. The basic premise of Christianity, which is important since it formed the basis of western laws, is that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Jesus "paid" for our sins with his life, which means there is a way that provides redemption for our sins, if we repent through Jesus. There is no parallel in Islam, or any other religion that I know of. Only Christianity upholds the values of forgiveness, and mercy, that is so essential to living in civil society. Whether you believe or not doesn't matter. I am pointing out the foundational difference between the two, which finally equates to a cultural difference. Hateful, vengeful religions should be unacceptable to everyone. I agree with you. Do you realize you're agreeing with me? Edited January 4, 2017 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 48 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: Only Christianity upholds the values of forgiveness, and mercy, that is so essential to living in civil society. I guess you have never read the Qur'an. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 16 minutes ago, ?Impact said: I guess you have never read the Qur'an. I've read a little. Found it hard to read. Page after page of praise and submission, but not a lot of useful info. IE good brainwashing material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 34 minutes ago, Argus said: I agree with you. Do you realize you're agreeing with me? Of course, and I am not ashamed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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