This week in Islam

[Guest]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

I was a wolf cub. Weirdest experience ever

Yeah, that's why I only went for one week. 

[DogOnPorch]

7 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 

I never heard of such a thing. There are persecutions in some areas, African nations seem to come to mind. But they are already barbarous.

The barbarous culture is not implicit in Christianity, more like the opposite. The struggle has always been against it, whether it be Attila the Hun, the Ottoman Turks, or today's modern Islamists. The west endures and it is the only hope for the future. Not perfect, but the best there is, and we must protect it... as our forefathers did...

 

Christianity in Africa...and places like the West Indies...is heavily mixed with traditional tribal religions. Thus yer Voodoo and such....technically Christian in nature...barely so. 

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I was a wolf cub. Weirdest experience ever

 

Been there...pretty standard for kids in 50s-70s Canada.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The west endures and it is the only hope for the future. Not perfect, but the best there is, and we must protect it... as our forefathers did...

Sure... #1 is stopping these religious wars that people keep trying to pull.  Anti-Muslims hate the west, basically.  

Meanwhile Muslims seem to be like all of us: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/26/the-share-of-americans-who-leave-islam-is-offset-by-those-who-become-muslim/

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, from what I read here, the only reason Christains are not murdering blasphemers and apostates as we spaek is because they don't actually have to power to do so.

Now there's some freaky conjecture for you...

For some information of what Christians with power will do, read up on The Lord's Resistance Army, or the Eastern Lightning - who believe Jesus has returned as a Chinese woman, and who the Chinese government considers a terror group.

There's also the "Phineas Priesthood", which is less an organized group and more of a title given to people who engage in murserous violence, based on the example of a Hebrew rewarded by God for killing an interfaith couple.  "The term "Phineas action" is used by white supremacists more broadly not only for murders of interracial couples, but also for attacks on Jewish people, other non-white ethnic groups, "multiculturalists" and anyone they see as their enemies.

And here is the Army of God, complete with New Testament Biblical support for violence against abortionists.  

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Sure... #1 is stopping these religious wars that people keep trying to pull.  Anti-Muslims hate the west, basically.  

Meanwhile Muslims seem to be like all of us: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/26/the-share-of-americans-who-leave-islam-is-offset-by-those-who-become-muslim/

 

The Quran states that the penalty for leaving Islam is death.

[Guest]

Just now, dialamah said:

For some information of what Christians with power will do, read up on The Lord's Resistance Army, or the Eastern Lightning - who believe Jesus has returned as a Chinese woman, and who the Chinese government considers a terror group.

There's also the "Phineas Priesthood", which is less an organized group and more of a title given to people who engage in murserous violence, based on the example of a Hebrew rewarded by God for killing an interfaith couple.  "The term "Phineas action" is used by white supremacists more broadly not only for murders of interracial couples, but also for attacks on Jewish people, other non-white ethnic groups, "multiculturalists" and anyone they see as their enemies.

And here is the Army of God, complete with New Testament Biblical support for violence against abortionists.  

I already knew of such things.  Would you compare them to ISIS, albeit somewhat lesser in scope and ambition, or to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Brunei and Malaysia?

[Argus]

46 minutes ago, dialamah said:

As usual, Pew provides a balanced and nuanced discussion - the article is well worth reading, imo, to get a feel for the way in which State-sponsored religious persecution is increasing around the world.

And as usual you are attempting to act as a PR flack for the Muslim world in pretending their actions are in any way comparable to that in western countries.

Your own cite says One of the consistent takeaways from a decade of tracking is the relatively high level of government restrictions on religion in the Middle East and North Africa (MENA), which has ranked above all other regions each year from 2007 to 2017. The new study shows that the Middle East has high levels of restrictions across all four categories in 2017, but the gap in government favoritism is particularly large: The average country in the MENA region scores nearly twice as high on measures of government favoritism as the average country in any other region.

You are comparing countries which have the death penalty for blasphemers and apostates, and which harass or criminalize or kill people of other religions to western countries that might ban the burka or something like that to try to discourage Muslim extremism. Then saying "See!? same same! Muslims are no worse!"

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

From the Quran...which I did not write...

They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

https://quran.com/4/89

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

For some information of what Christians with power will do, read up on The Lord's Resistance Army, or the Eastern Lightning -

More attempts at defending Muslin violence and bigotry, this time by using terrorist groups as examples. You want to see what Christians with power do? Look at the United States, or Canada or Europe.

Meanwhile, Christianity is the world's most persecuted religion.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48146305

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/2019/april/global-persecution-report-christians-are-the-most-persecuted-and-its-accelerating

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I already knew of such things.  Would you compare them to ISIS, albeit somewhat lesser in scope and ambition, or to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Brunei and Malaysia?

 

Been watching the old Winds of War etc (don't make 'em like that anymore)...lots of folks thinking & telling themselves that Hitler wasn't going to do exactly what he said he would do.

[dialamah]

Just now, bcsapper said:

I already knew of such things.  Would you compare them to ISIS, albeit somewhat lesser in scope and ambition, or to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Brunei and Malaysia?

Yes, same goal to engender political change and impose religion through violence and fear, but as you say "lessor in scope". 

Would these groups be "lessor in scope" if Western nations lacked strong and effective legal and criminal justice systems?  I, personally, doubt it.  And I think we'll find that out if climate change sufficiently destabilizes our politics and economy. 

At this moment in time, I don't consider extremist Christians (or White Supremacists) any more of a threat than Islamic extremists in Western countries.  If I lived in a Middle Eastern country, I might worry about ISIS and Western forces being equally dangerous to my continued health and well-being.

[Guest]

Just now, dialamah said:

Yes, same goal to engender political change and impose religion through violence and fear, but as you say "lessor in scope". 

Would these groups be "lessor in scope" if Western nations lacked strong and effective legal and criminal justice systems?  I, personally, doubt it.  And I think we'll find that out if climate change sufficiently destabilizes our politics and economy. 

At this moment in time, I don't consider extremist Christians (or White Supremacists) any more of a threat than Islamic extremists in Western countries.  If I lived in a Middle Eastern country, I might worry about ISIS and Western forces being equally dangerous to my continued health and well-being.

If you lived in Iran would you worry about being caught without your scarf on?  Or would you be sure to wear it whether you wanted to or not?

The comparisons of other religions with Islam are disingenuous.  No-one would say that there is any religion that can be held as completely benign at the moment.  Even Buddhists can be bastards.  But as I have stated again and again, none of them hold a candle to Islam for overall brutality and oppression.

[dialamah]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

And as usual you are attempting to act as a PR flack for the Muslim world in pretending their actions are in any way comparable to that in western countries.

Actually I covered that in my simmary when I said "These increases apply mainly to non-Islamic states, since Islamic states already scored highly on restrictions and favoritism."

Your claim that I'm calling them "comparable" fails.

The fact is that state sponsored interference in religious practice is increasing in non-Islamic countries.  Quit trying to pretend that isn't true or doesn't matter.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Even Buddhists can be bastards.

 

Ask Diem! But...I don't think they resorted to conducting terrorism or murdering innocents or non-Buddhists for not being Buddhists. Perhaps you know otherwise?

[eyeball]

45 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If enough extremists like Matt Shea get together with less violent groups like that behind Project Blitz, would the result look much different than ISIS in the Middle East?  In the West, our laws and institutions are strong enough to withstand these kinds of challenges, but would that be true if we we were de-stabilized in some way, perhaps through climate change?

It wouldn't take much - economic/ecological/political hard-times could easily do it and especially if they followed hot on the heels of the acrimonious times we live in now.

 

Quote

 

Christianity, given power, is no different than Islam, given power.

 

What gives religion so much power is the sense of powerlessness of human beings that turn to it when everything else starts breaking down around them.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, eyeball said:

It wouldn't take much - economic/ecological/political hard-times could easily do it and especially if they followed hot on the heels of the acrimonious times we live in now.

 

What gives religion so much power is the sense of powerlessness of human beings that turn to it when everything else starts breaking down around them.

 

Like a couple of World Wars or perhaps a decade long Depression?

[scribblet]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

They could revert to old barbaric forms of Christianity at any time.  Why do people think Christians have been permanently immunized against barbarity? Look at what destabilizing the Muslim world has wrought, it could happen to anyone and there's little reason to believe the reaction would be any different. People are still people after all.

They could but don't, Immunized against barbarity...  too bad others aren't.  according to BBC persecution of Christians is at near genocide levels.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Ask Diem! But...I don't think they resorted to conducting terrorism or murdering innocents or non-Buddhists for not being Buddhists. Perhaps you know otherwise?

That's why I said the comparisons are disingenuous.  There's only ever one true champion.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, scribblet said:

They could but don't, Immunized against barbarity...  too bad others aren't.  according to BBC persecution of Christians is at near genocide levels.

 

Indeed...and Africa is nuts. And it's horribly under-reported. Gunmen just enter villages and kill as many as possible...and nobody notices. 

[Michael Hardner]

32 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

The Quran states that the penalty for leaving Islam is death.

I guess not many believe that.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

That's why I said the comparisons are disingenuous.  There's only ever one true champion.

 

I suppose a cheerleader for Islam would point to Burma or some place like that....forgetting to add that Islam is the (violent) invader in such a situation. 

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I guess not many believe that.

 

...and Winds of War is a great miniseries.

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Like a couple of World Wars or perhaps a decade long Depression?

Or ideological Cold Wars stoked with an unreasoning fearfulness.

I mean take a look at the effect a boy with nice hair and socks has on you for example.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Or ideological Cold Wars stoked with an unreasoning fearfulness.

I mean take a look at the effect a boy with nice hair and socks has on you for example.

 

Still no violent outbursts against Liberals, Muslims or any other protected species. How disappointing for you.