This week in Islam

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

But as I have stated again and again, none of them hold a candle to Islam for overall brutality and oppression.

I can agree with you that the governments of Islamic countries are the worst for human rights violations and oppressive government.  I cannot, however, lay this at the feet of Islam itaelf because non-Islamic governments can be equally bad.  Of course, Islamic or Quranic teachings can be used to justify the oppression, which is a problem with religion in power regardless of religion, or even just with people in power.  

Right now, the Chinese government actions against Urgyur Muslims is pretty brutal.  Yet, that isn't ever mentioned here because why?  Perhaps because Muslims are truly the victims in this instance and most commentators here aren't interested in Muslims as victims.

Or what about Muslims in India?  They are being heavily persecuted by government and violence against them is not heavily policed or.ounished - but again, this is rarely mentioned here because it goes against the "Muslims are evil" narrative preferred.

Should Iranian Imams who support marriages of 9-year-olds be condmned  - yes, absolutely.  But what about the Muslims who insist their daughters finish university before thinking of marriage?   Or Imams who support those parents?  Why is every discussion here about the worst that Muslims do and any effort by myself or anyone else to present a different side ridiculed and diamissed as "apology"?  I have never denied the excesses of ISIS or other extremists, nor have supported oppression or misogyny or terror, yet I'm regularly accused of such things when I point out that Islam can also support more progressive beliefs which many Muslims choose to follow. 

I've been called a liar and been told my family lies to me when I've provided them as examples of "normal" Muslims - more conservative than most Canadians, but certainly not extreme by any stretch.  Why would that be, other than to discredit any suggestion that Muslims are not hell-bent on taking over the world and killing anyone who disagrees with them.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

I suppose a cheerleader for Islam would point to Burma or some place like that....forgetting to add that Islam is the (violent) invader in such a situation. 

Sure, but not being a cheerleader for Islam doesn't stop me from seeing murderers where they lurk.  They aren't murdering because they are Buddhists.  It would be just that they are Buddhists and they are murdering.  A distinction when it comes to the current abhorrence with Islam, but not when it comes to the expectation of a certain type of behaviour from religious people generally.

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, scribblet said:

They could but don't, Immunized against barbarity...  too bad others aren't.  according to BBC persecution of Christians is at near genocide levels.

We have local church that was recently turned into a micro-brewery and bar.  It's the end of the world for sure.

Edited December 26, 2019 by eyeball

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Sure, but not being a cheerleader for Islam doesn't stop me from seeing murderers where they lurk.  They aren't murdering because they are Buddhists.  It would be just that they are Buddhists and they are murdering.  A distinction when it comes to the current abhorrence with Islam, but not when it comes to the expectation of a certain type of behaviour from religious people generally.

 

I believe the Buddha was AGAINST murder. Just saying. Also, like Christ, it was Buddha's followers that tacked-on all the extra 'truths' etc that make for the cult like appearance of the whole affair...robes etc.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I can agree with you that the governments of Islamic countries are the worst for human rights violations and oppressive government.  I cannot, however, lay this at the feet of Islam itaelf because non-Islamic governments can be equally bad.  Of course, Islamic or Quranic teachings can be used to justify the oppression, which is a problem with religion in power regardless of religion, or even just with people in power.  

Right now, the Chinese government actions against Urgyur Muslims is pretty brutal.  Yet, that isn't ever mentioned here because why?  Perhaps because Muslims are truly the victims in this instance and most commentators here aren't interested in Muslims as victims.

Or what about Muslims in India?  They are being heavily persecuted by government and violence against them is not heavily policed or.ounished - but again, this is rarely mentioned here because it goes against the "Muslims are evil" narrative preferred.

Should Iranian Imams who support marriages of 9-year-olds be condmned  - yes, absolutely.  But what about the Muslims who insist their daughters finish university before thinking of marriage?   Or Imams who support those parents?  Why is every discussion here about the worst that Muslims do and any effort by myself or anyone else to present a different side ridiculed and diamissed as "apology"?  I have never denied the excesses of ISIS or other extremists, nor have supported oppression or misogyny or terror, yet I'm regularly accused of such things when I point out that Islam can also support more progressive beliefs which many Muslims choose to follow. 

I've been called a liar and been told my family lies to me when I've provided them as examples of "normal" Muslims - more conservative than most Canadians, but certainly not extreme by any stretch.  Why would that be, other than to discredit any suggestion that Muslims are not hell-bent on taking over the world and killing anyone who disagrees with them.

It is mentioned here.  In fact, just yesterday I said the Chinese can be right bastards.  Of course, in the spirit of Christmas I allowed how not all of them were.  But I do that with all groups I pick on.

The reason why every discussion on here is about the worst that Muslims do is because that is what the thread is for.  Islam lends itself to that kind of thread, by being not only the most barbaric religion on the planet at the moment, but also by being (and here's the thing) the rationale behind the system of government in many countries as well.

There are millions of normal Muslims.  They aren't worth a mention.  Any more than you or me or any of the millions of normal non-Muslims are.  When we discuss climate change we don't talk about non-polluters.  When we discuss gun violence we don't discuss those who don't own guns.  It doesn't change our view of coal burners or gun nuts.

Edited December 26, 2019 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

Right now, the Chinese government actions against Urgyur Muslims is pretty brutal.  Yet, that isn't ever mentioned here because why?  Perhaps because Muslims are truly the victims in this instance and most commentators here aren't interested in Muslims as victims.

Or what about Muslims in India?  They are being heavily persecuted by government and violence against them is not heavily policed or.ounished - but again, this is rarely mentioned here because it goes against the "Muslims are evil" narrative preferred.

 

With yourself, Islam is ALWAYS the victim....the poor thing.

Muslims in Red China conduct terrorism, too. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China

Muslims in India are protesting India taking-in non-Muslim refugees from Muslim regions. Why is that I wonder?

 

[dialamah]

25 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It wouldn't take much - economic/ecological/political hard-times could easily do it and especially if they followed hot on the heels of the acrimonious times we live in now.

 

What gives religion so much power is the sense of powerlessness of human beings that turn to it when everything else starts breaking down around them.

I remember years ago, before Google, reading that throughout history, adherence to more fundamental religious practices was tied to how threatened humans felt.  Natural disaster, plagues, political unrest/war results in people trying to appease God, often through barbaric practices visited upon others.

In a related note, has anyone else noticed more JW's out proselytizing lately?  I see them almost daily at my busstop, after years of not seeing them, and got them knocking on my door after two decades of no visits. I believe this is directly tied to the world's political climate and climate change fears and makes them think we're in the "end times" now (again).

Also, Christians are no doubt thrilled to be the most persecuted group (true or not), a clear sign of Jesus' imminent artival.

Edited December 26, 2019 by dialamah

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, eyeball said:

We have local church that was recently turned into a micro-brewery and bar.  It's the end of the world for sure.

Sounds like progress to me...

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Still no violent outbursts against Liberals, Muslims or any other protected species.

There's been no shortage of Cold War violence perpetrated against Muslim countries by nations that adorn their legislatures and constitutions with crucifixes and references to God's supremacy.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, eyeball said:

There's been no shortage of Cold War violence perpetrated against Muslim countries by nations that adorn their legislatures and constitutions with crucifixes and references to God's supremacy.

 

Iran was just standin' there all innocent like when big bad Kermit Roosevelt decided to upend the Muslim world...yes...heard your version of world history before.

[DogOnPorch]

8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

There are millions of normal Muslims.  

 

That openly idolize a murderous pedophile warlord who hated Jews more than Hitler as the perfect man. As an unbeliever, I help but notice the little things.

[Guest]

dp -

I've got to start reading posts before I reply to them.

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by bcsapper

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

That openly idolize a murderous pedophile warlord who hated Jews more than Hitler as the perfect man. As an unbeliever, I help but notice the little things.

Yeah, I guess there are levels. I'll reserve the right to judge them based on their actions.

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

There are millions of normal Muslims.  They aren't worth a mention.  

Why not?  Perhaps if Arabic discussion threads discussed normal Jews, instead of just the bad ones, there'd be less anti-Semitism in the Middle East.

Perhaps if the humanity and normalcy of most people were highlighted, instead of making the claim that this group or that group was "the worst" - barbaric, cruel, backward, ignorant, immoral - there'd be more humanity in the world.  It takes propaganda to hate others, and the propaganda of ISIS is no different than the propaganda found here.  I agree it hasn't reached the levels of violence that ISIS ultimately engaged in, and I hope (assume) it never will, but it is - at its core - no different.  

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yeah, I guess there are levels. I'll reserve the right to judge them based on their actions.

 

Exactly what Churchill said...but he also still said that Islam was contemptible and that slavery wouldn't disappear until Islam didn't hold the hearts of men.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Why not?  Perhaps if Arabic discussion threads discussed normal Jews, instead of just the bad ones, there'd be less anti-Semitism in the Middle East.

Perhaps if the humanity and normalcy of most people were highlighted, instead of making the claim that this group or that group was "the worst" - barbaric, cruel, backward, ignorant, immoral - there'd be more humanity in the world.  It takes propaganda to hate others, and the propaganda of ISIS is no different than the propaganda found here.  I agree it hasn't reached the levels of violence that ISIS ultimately engaged in, and I hope (assume) it never will, but it is - at its core - no different.  

 

Oskar Schindler was a good Nazi.

[Guest]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

Exactly what Churchill said...but he also still said that Islam was contemptible and that slavery wouldn't disappear until Islam didn't hold the hearts of men.

Hey, me too. 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Why not?  Perhaps if Arabic discussion threads discussed normal Jews, instead of just the bad ones, there'd be less anti-Semitism in the Middle East.

Perhaps if the humanity and normalcy of most people were highlighted, instead of making the claim that this group or that group was "the worst" - barbaric, cruel, backward, ignorant, immoral - there'd be more humanity in the world.  It takes propaganda to hate others, and the propaganda of ISIS is no different than the propaganda found here.  I agree it hasn't reached the levels of violence that ISIS ultimately engaged in, and I hope (assume) it never will, but it is - at its core - no different.  

For the same reason I said in my post.  If you want to start a thread about normal people going shopping, making dinner and watching tv, fill your boots, but it will probably not be very popular.  That's why we don't see that kind of thing on the nightly news.

It doesn't take propaganda, it takes the truth.  Only when the truth is not sufficient does it take propaganda.

Edited December 26, 2019 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Hey, me too. 

 

 

You'd think Islam's cheerleaders would counter with all the good things about Big Mo and his religion.

There are good things...surely. Things to be proud of based JUST on Islam's teachings.

There'd better be....

[dialamah]

32 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It doesn't take propaganda, it takes the truth.  Only when the truth is not sufficient does it take propaganda.

When ISIS uses scantily clad women, support for gay rights and Western media stories about about rape, murders, children being abused/abandonned, anti-niqab/hijab laws and Muslims being attacked (on the street by individuals or in ME countries by Western military) to prove how evil Westerners are, and how we want to destroy Islam and kill all Muslims, its propaganda.  Some or even most of the stories are factually true, but the way its presented and spun is a lie deisgned to whip up hatred against Westerners.  Anything positive about Westerners is dismissed, ignored, belittled - essentially not allowed.

Same here on this thread, by some commentators.  Some of the people on this thread use sites like "Religion of Peace" that claim to tell the truth about Islam, but everything posted there and repeated here is very one-sided, often deliberately misleading with occasional outright lies. They'll also post the same news stories several times to make Islam/Muslims look more violent.  Anything positive that might be said about Muslims is attacked as lies, unimportant, "aplogist", etc - essentially not allowed.  That's propaganda, no different than the propaganda used by ISIS.  

[DogOnPorch]

14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

When ISIS uses scantily clad women, support for gay rights and Western media stories about about rape, murders, children being abused/abandonned, anti-niqab/hijab laws and Muslims being attacked (on the street by individuals or in ME countries by Western military) to prove how evil Westerners are, and how we want to destroy Islam and kill all Muslims, its propaganda.  Some or even most of the stories are factually true, but the way its presented and spun is a lie deisgned to whip up hatred against Westerners.  Anything positive about Westerners is dismissed, ignored, belittled - essentially not allowed.

Same here on this thread, by some commentators.  Some of the people on this thread use sites like "Religion of Peace" that claim to tell the truth about Islam, but everything posted there and repeated here is very one-sided, often deliberately misleading with occasional outright lies. They'll also post the same news stories several times to make Islam/Muslims look more violent.  Anything positive that might be said about Muslims is attacked as lies, unimportant, "aplogist", etc - essentially not allowed.  That's propaganda, no different than the propaganda used by ISIS.  

 

Okay...let's be fair if I'm oppressing you....poor victim.

What's the best thing about Islam?

[DogOnPorch]

17 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Same here on this thread, by some commentators.  Some of the people on this thread use sites like "Religion of Peace" that claim to tell the truth about Islam, but everything posted there and repeated here is very one-sided, often deliberately misleading with occasional outright lies.

 

Can you give an example of one of the "Religion of Peace's" many obvious lies in order to make Islam look bad?

Meanwhile...I use the Quran & Hadiths to back-up my comments...your holy book. I did not write the Quran nor did I write your prophet's Hadiths. 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, dialamah said:

When ISIS uses scantily clad women, support for gay rights and Western media stories about about rape, murders, children being abused/abandonned, anti-niqab/hijab laws and Muslims being attacked (on the street by individuals or in ME countries by Western military) to prove how evil Westerners are, and how we want to destroy Islam and kill all Muslims, its propaganda.  Some or even most of the stories are factually true, but the way its presented and spun is a lie deisgned to whip up hatred against Westerners.  Anything positive about Westerners is dismissed, ignored, belittled - essentially not allowed.

Same here on this thread, by some commentators.  Some of the people on this thread use sites like "Religion of Peace" that claim to tell the truth about Islam, but everything posted there and repeated here is very one-sided, often deliberately misleading with occasional outright lies. They'll also post the same news stories several times to make Islam/Muslims look more violent.  Anything positive that might be said about Muslims is attacked as lies, unimportant, "aplogist", etc - essentially not allowed.  That's propaganda, no different than the propaganda used by ISIS.  

If you describe how people are free to wear what they want, or how nice they are to gay people, it's somewhat different from describing how people are forced to wear certain clothing, and how awful people are to blasphemers and apostates.

As long as it's true, it's up to those receiving the message to decide on what they think about it all.

Edited December 26, 2019 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If you describe how people are free to wear what they want, or how nice they are to gay people, it's somewhat different from describing how people are forced to wear certain clothing, and how awful people are to blasphemers and apostates.

As long as it's true, it's up to those receiving the message to decide on what they think about it all.

 

Seeing that not even Islam's cheerleaders can think of anything redeeming about Islam...not a lot of conviction out there.

It's just easier to call Islam's critics liars and Islamophobes.

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Seeing that not even Islam's cheerleaders can think of anything redeeming about Islam...not a lot of conviction out there.

It's just easier to call Islam's critics liars and Islamophobes.

I can't really think of anything especially redeeming about Christianity, either.  Its homophobic, misogynistic and violent teachings are overcome by the best of people and indulged in by the worst of people, much like the teachings of Islam are used by Muslims.  

Non-believers also run the gamut from very good to very evil.  But at least they decide for themsleves instead of needing a sky fairy to tell them how to behave, who to kill, who not to kill.