Burn a Qu'ran Day.

[waldo]

The naive left (aka secular humanists), are exploiting Islam in order to denounce and rid the world of Christianity… Islam, you’re on deck – the left will soon come for you, as well. Once Christianity is gone, once Islam is gone, secular humanists are gone – ergo, the naive left is self-immolating.

deep, very deep, Pliny

[Oleg Bach]

He's the proverbial wolf in sheeps clothing...An angry fool who uses faith as cover for his hatred...

HE has as much faith as the jerks who were at the controls of the plane that crashed into the first then second tower - there is a huge difference between faith and the fantasitic....Yesterday I spoke to this eccentric rasta type dope dealer - he believes in flying saucers - insists he is building a space ship...believes himself to be a marshall artist - a rapper - and some sort of prophet - I finally told this dope dealing bitter black jerk that I did not want him close to myself or any family member - that "you drag people down" - well - He became agitated and blurted in great pride _ "I am the only one in the neighbourhood who is trained in ARMEGEDON" -

Which translated means- I collect knives and swords and can't wait for society to crumble so I can run around murdering everyone...that is what is in this guys heart and mind...similar to this other proverbial wolf you speak of.

[dre]

I think it is because Islam has been rather incapable of explaining to the non-Muslim world what the difference is between a "radical loop-hole-filled bullsh*it (aka not Islam)" and Islam. Once there is a clear delineation things will be a lot more relaxed, I'm sure.

How we want to classify radicals is a decision that WE have to make not them. Also fundamentalism doesnt do it. Fundamentalists are just pious religious conservatives. While they ARE prone to extra nutty literal interpretations of religion, and I dont particularly care for ANY orthodox religionists, that doesnt mean they are going to commit or advocate violence against us. Even among the most pious and fundamentalist muslims the number that pose a threat to us is very small.

Anyhow this whole conversation is getting silly. The fact is that as much as westerners like to sit around and talk about it, the global jihadist political movement that we predicted after 911, never materialized. It fizzled and died and has been rejected throughout the Muslim world.

And the Jihadist movements that still exist are NOT really motivated by religion anyways... they just wrap their goals in Islam to help get support for them... much like other governments and leaders have done to religious sheeple for thousands of years.

I know this is sad for many of you, but there just aint no major global crisis over this.

Edited September 9, 2010 by dre

[bush_cheney2004]

....I know this is sad for many of you, but there just aint no major global crisis over this.

No big deal at all....lots of cluckers and suckers for this very un-original stunt.

[GostHacked]

Who is really stirring the pot here? Most people on this forum that support the building of the mosque at ground zero also condemn the Pastor burning the Qu'ran and are also left wing -

Like I said, I get it and understand the protests against the mosque, but overall, the mosque will be built. Because of the laws that allow it to be build regardless of what protests happen. US charter states that you have the right to practice whatever religion you fancy. So it may not be so much the mosque but the laws that are in place to allow it to be built. The same right would be granted to any other religion that wanted to built on that spot.

But again, the building where this mosque will go has been abandoned since 1995. The land owners would welcome ANYONE who wanted to purchase or lease the property. Money talks, and in the USA it talks a lot, especially in NYC. It was empty for 6 years before the attacks, and has remained empty for the last 10 years.

We can marginalize the people who want to build the mosque by not paying them attention or giving them air time. But controversy sells, and all of us are idiots and suckers to buy into it. Use your damn heads for once and THINK.

I think you are missing the reasons why people are not supporting the book burning, the action is purely out of spite for the location of the future mosque as was the gay bar proposal I don't find it genuine and it won't help solve the problem. We all want the problem solved, but when we purposefully do stupid shit, we are moving backwards.

The mosque is supposed to bring two cultures/religions closer to understanding each other.

...they are also secular humanists. So what difference does it make to them and why are they so vociferously defending one religion's position over another? They appear to sympathize with Muslims despite the fact they have the same opinion of them as they do of Christians. They beat up on Christianity because they can. The Muslims will be allies in helping them beat up on and further the goal of demoralizing Christianity so they are a useful tool. They don't envision the time when radical loop-hole-filled bullsh*t (aka not Islam) will come after them. I think they misguidedly believe that reason will prevail. Laws, the encapsulation of force, however can and will override reason and Islam has it's set of laws. Reason does not prevail in the face of law.

If anything changes in North America in regards to Sharia Law, you have only your dumb ass politicians and lawmakers to blame. Dumb shit gets rammed through and made law more often than we think, and much more often than we care to admit. It's our leaders who will eventually fail us because they have the power to make the rules. We as average citizens don't. Most of us don't really care what goes on in the government. We are passive and uninterested in our governments actions. We are more focused with our own lives than what our government does ... then one day we wake up and ask WTF happened.

Don't put the blame on Islam if Sharia Law gets implemented here. Blame our governments for allowing it to happen even when a majority of the people oppose it. I guess we should blame ourselves as well. If it happens it's because we are too complacent and to apathetic to actually do anything about it.

I don't see this as a right/left issue, it's an all us us issue.

[Guest American Woman]

We all want the problem solved, but when we purposefully do stupid shit, we are moving backwards.

The mosque is supposed to bring two cultures/religions closer to understanding each other.

That's what the Imam in charge of the project has said, but it takes two to tango; and considering the negative feelings on the other side, it's doing anything but bringing two cultures/religions closer together. Because of this mosque, the "understanding" is moving backwards.

Yet the project is going forward. In spite of the fact that it's doing the exact opposite of the intended purpose. It apears as if the relationship between the "two cultures/religions" is at an all time low, yet that's having no influence at all.

So I don't see how purposely moving forward with this project, in light of the reaction and the intended purpose, is smart. Just because one side says it's 'supposed to do something good' doesn't make it so.

It boggles the mind that countless Bibles have been burned, hundreds of flags, yet burning a Koran causes a frenzy; and the focus is on the burning, not the death threats that have resulted. One would swear people think burning a book is more wrong than issuing death threats. I can't understand how Obama has even gotten himself involved, asking the church not to burn the Koran. Yet he won't comment on the wisdom of the mosque being built on property that Imam Rauf himself has acknowledged was part of the ruins of 9-11.

And again, advocating bowing down to terrorist threats, when we are fighting a war to defeat terrorism, could only, ultimately, be totally counter-productive.

I suppose I should feel that I don't support the minister burning the Koran, but I really couldn't care less, as it's only a symbol. I've never gotten worked up over a Bible burning or a flag burning, and I doubt if the majority of the people in this thread have, so why the need to object so strongly to a Koran burning? That people can get worked up over a book yet not empathize with people who have lost loved ones, not books, actual people, is really difficult to understand.

As I said before, understanding people's feelings, where they are coming from, and respecting their feelings enough to act accordingly, is a two way street. I could be wrong, but I think that's what this minister is saying. At least that's the way I see it. I don't have respect for his views on Islam, but I think I understand what this is all about.

So Americans are bad for burning the Koran, for not understanding Muslim's feelings, but Americans are also bad for expecting Muslims to understand their feelings. That's the way it's being portrayed in the world/media, as far as I can see.

Edited September 9, 2010 by American Woman

[Wild Bill]

So Americans are bad for burning the Koran, for not understanding Muslim's feelings, but Americans are also bad for expecting Muslims to understand their feelings. That's the way it's being portrayed in the world/media, as far as I can see.

AW, there are two truisms in the world media. First, America is always wrong. The second is that Muslims can act in a primitive and barbaric manner yet never be accused as such.

That's just the way it is today.

[waldo]

I suppose I should feel that I don't support the minister burning the Koran, but I really couldn't care less, as it's only a symbol.

apparently... the proposed NY mosque... must be more than symbolic... to you - hey?

[waldo]

AW, there are two truisms in the world media. First, America is always wrong. The second is that Muslims can act in a primitive and barbaric manner yet never be accused as such.

That's just the way it is today.

suggest you change your 'media channel'

[dre]

So I don't see how purposely moving forward with this project, in light of the reaction and the intended purpose, is smart. Just because one side says it's 'supposed to do something good' doesn't make it so.

This has been covered literally dozens of times. Whether or not this project accomplishes its stated process cannot be pre-judged based on opposition to the project. The bottom line is the opposition isnt really that big a deal, and despite the fact the polls show a majority of people would rather not have this project happen, attendance at real protests has been very low, and besides that opposition has consisted of a couple of frivalous lawsuits.

In the end... people are going to move on to some other issue, and the protest over this project will be forgotten. After that whether or not the project is successfull in achieving its stated goal, will depend on how the facility operates and what happens there.

The bottom line is that ammount of real active opposition to this project just isnt the kind of thing someone is likely to cancel a realestate development project over. Theres tens of millions of dollars at stake here between the various parties involved in the project (owner, developer, builders etc). Do you really think for a second those people are going to scared off by a few protests with a few hundred people?

Get serious.

[dre]

I suppose I should feel that I don't support the minister burning the Koran, but I really couldn't care less, as it's only a symbol.

Its the symbolic nature of the NYC project that most of the opposition is based on as well.

This entire debate is about symbolism.

And futhermore your assertion has been that the muslims involved with this project should cancel it out of "empathy" and concern over offending people. Well guess what? As crazy as I personally think it is, one of the very best way to offend sky-god enthusiasts is to set fire to their magic books. But suddenly the empathy is gone...

Thats nothing more than pure hypocracy.

[Sir Bandelot]

That people can get worked up over a book yet not empathize with people who have lost loved ones, not books, actual people, is really difficult to understand.

This entire debate is about whether muslims in general should hold responsibility for the attack on 9/11.

The people who don't want the mosque in NYC tend to feel that way. And the people who want to burn the book tend to feel that way also. There is no disconnect.

[wyly]

It boggles the mind that countless Bibles have been burned, hundreds of flags, yet burning a Koran causes a frenzy; and the focus is on the burning, not the death threats that have resulted. One would swear people think burning a book is more wrong than issuing death threats. I can't understand how Obama has even gotten himself involved, asking the church not to burn the Koran. Yet he won't comment on the wisdom of the mosque being built on property that Imam Rauf himself has acknowledged was part of the ruins of 9-11.

hmm, an indigenous population was ethnically cleansed from much of their territory purely because of a book that christianity is based on with the support of the USA...

And again, advocating bowing down to terrorist threats, when we are fighting a war to defeat terrorism, could only, ultimately, be totally counter-productive.

the "we" you are referring to is very much responsible for starting the war in the first place...to use the term coined by your CIA it's called "blowback"...if you don't like terrorism/wars ask your government not to take part in them...

[wyly]

AW, there are two truisms in the world media. First, America is always wrong. The second is that Muslims can act in a primitive and barbaric manner yet never be accused as such.

That's just the way it is today.

no Bill that's your perception...no one has claimed terror acts are ok but condeming terror acts of fanatical muslims and giving a pass to others equally responsible (USA)isn't right either...do uou actually believe these acts of terror come out of the blue for no reason? there's decades of history behind these acts of violence, it's violence in response to previous violence and injustice...

[Guest American Woman]

This entire debate is about whether muslims in general should hold responsibility for the attack on 9/11.

No, it isn't. That you say it is, when you aren't representing/recognizing my views, along with many others', at all, is nothing more than your close-minded view. That's what you've narrowed it down to. You choose to ignore everything else. That doesn't make it about what you claim it is. Not by a long shot. That you can't see beyond your mindset doesn't mean it's not about something else entirely.

[Guest American Woman]

AW, there are two truisms in the world media. First, America is always wrong. The second is that Muslims can act in a primitive and barbaric manner yet never be accused as such.

That's just the way it is today.

I believe there's a lot more truth to that than I ever thought I would....

[naomiglover]

Why are we only concerned about not offending Muslims?

We're also concerned about not offending:

- Jews

- Disabled

- Women

- Overweight people

- etc.

[naomiglover]

The best we can do is to unequivocally, condemn the book burning, while continuing to champion our freedom of expression. If there are easily offended Muslims who cannot accept that this is an action of a small minority and that they do not represent America or the West, then so be it.

Edited September 9, 2010 by naomiglover

[Guest American Woman]

The best we can do is to unequivocally, condemn the book burning....

I won't be condemning it. I've never condemned burning Bibles or the flag, so I won't be selectively condemning burning a Koran.

[Michael Hardner]

What is this talk of burning Bibles ? Has that ever really happened, or is it just being brought up as an analogical example ?

I'm asking seriously.

[Guest American Woman]

What is this talk of burning Bibles ? Has that ever really happened, or is it just being brought up as an analogical example ?

I'm asking seriously.

If you have to ask "seriously," it just proves my point. There was no hoopla surrounding it, no media frenzy, no condemnation. Overall, no one cared, just as overall, no one cares when a flag is burned.

Edited September 9, 2010 by American Woman

[nicky10013]

Overall, no one cared, just as overall, no one cares when a flag is burned.

Well, that's bullshit, too. How many amendments to the constitution have been proposed to outlaw flag burning?

[Guest American Woman]

Well, that's bullshit, too. How many amendments to the constitution have been proposed to outlaw flag burning?

The key word there is "overall." Many Americans didn't care, the world media didn't care, I dare say you and naomiglover et al didn't care, liberals didn't care. But some Americans did care. They cared a lot. Yet overall, the world at large, public opinion, didn't care that they cared.

So you, too, prove my point.

[nicky10013]

CNN has it that the book burning is being cancelled. At least someone in this has common sense.

[Guest American Woman]

CNN has it that the book burning is being cancelled. At least someone in this has common sense.

Yep. At least "someone" does. And once again, it's Muslims' sensitivities that are being respected; and of course people who are condemning others for being emotional about a mosque going up on property damaged by other Muslims on 9-11 think this is soooo great. So good that someone has the "common sense" to respect Muslims' emotions over a book.

It's ludicrous, really.

Edited September 9, 2010 by American Woman