Open warfare in South Ossetia

[M.Dancer]

Was there even one nation of the USSR that was there willingly?

Ukraine?

Belorussia?

Checnya?

LAtvia

Estonia

Lithuania?

Lok at any warsaw pack/ussr country and you will find a litany of oppreseion, murder and worse.

[eyeball]

Only Russians like power.

Well thats not true, others like power as well. Just about any totalitarian regime likes power, and will do just about anything to gain it, in that respect Russia falls quite nicely into the club.

The thing is though every regime also likes wealth perhaps even more so than power, and most will, and in fact have done, just about anything to get it. Russia and China have merely joined the club but nouveau rich are never really welcome are they? The mechanism they're using to create billionaires seems to work faster which I'm quite certain regimes in the west have not failed to notice. Even in Canada. Bump.

I think in twenty or thirty years our world of beggars and choosers will likely be under the iron thumb of a Cosa Nostra of super-rogues.

You know what probably really happens when the Putins and Bushs of the world gaze into each other's eyes? They wink at one another.

[Moonlight Graham]

The bias against Russia in the Western media regarding the whole Georgia/Ossetia/Russia conflict is astounding. Russia deserves some blame for attacking Georgia with such ferocity, but the western media rarely brings up the fact that Georgia attacked South Ossetia first, a day after they had both agreed to a ceasefire. Using the ceasefire to launch a suprise attack was very cowardly on Georgia's part, yet how aften is this mentioned compared to stories of "the re-awaking of the evil Russian bear!!"?

IMO Russia & Georgia have both acted like a-holes, but Russia just has the bigger guns (and sexier media headline).

[bush_cheney2004]

....IMO Russia & Georgia have both acted like a-holes, but Russia just has the bigger guns (and sexier media headline).

OK...but even the sex is brutish in Russia.

Why is Putin so lovable compared to America's favorite prick....VP Dick Cheney? Double standard!

[eyeball]

It doesn't sound like there's any shortage of sphincters in the region.

Determining which side opened fire first is almost impossible. Probably moot too. Any pretext will do when oil and gas are involved.

[moderateamericain]

It doesn't sound like there's any shortage of sphincters in the region.

Determining which side opened fire first is almost impossible. Probably moot too. Any pretext will do when oil and gas are involved.

Tommorow is the 16th, distance from the capital of Georgia as of tonight. 29 miles. I guess we will see what happens in the next 24 hours.

[myata]

IMO Russia & Georgia have both acted like a-holes, but Russia just has the bigger guns (and sexier media headline).

I'd subscribe to that; but what about the role of the West, which, as in the good old times before, is giving their exclusive support to the one particular ..hole? Not to mention that it had quite a bit of a clout over it; perhaps, with the right influence, the whole tragedy could have been avoided, or at least minimized?

And, as it looks from facts and figures, whenever we ourselves (or our buddies) decide to go in and mess things up, the result comes out every bit as dirty and ugly, as theirs - and more. So, does it make us, that, a-word, too? Interesting question... would ask for an honest and courageous self examination. Would we have guts for that though? I think the answer, now, is out there.

To August: one way to tell the difference, is to examine the deed. Not words, beliefs, or perceptions. Facts. From that point of view, indeed the records of the two presidents balance each other out quite nicely (Iraq and Afghanistan vs Chechnya and the poisoning affair).

To M/A: of course you forgot to mention of that the reports were of a ten or so light vehicles, possibly a reconnaiscence mission, which are allowed by the provisional ceasefire agreement, and would be really hard pressed to take on the fortified capital. But maybe you could shed some light on why it took so long to get that peace of paper across what appears to be a few hours of direct flight? It would have sped up the process (of withdrawal) quite a bit. Unless of course, somebody somewhere is interested to prolong the effect. Anyways we'll see tomorrow night, the bet is on.

HRW is reporting a possible use of cluster bombs against a Georgian city. This is a potential war crime and must be investigated, those guilty punished.

Cluster bombs were also used by the US in Afghanistan and Iraq, and Israel - in Lebanon. For everything they do, we do it too. How does that happen?

Edited August 16, 2008 by myata

[AngusThermopyle]

This is a potential war crime and must be investigated, those guilty punished.

Yeah...okay.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

Now I have to ask why using cluster bombs is a war crime?

"International law does not include a sweeping prohibition of the use of cluster bombs.

You'll like the link I provide Myata since its Israeli's condemning the use of these weapons. However there is no law prohibiting their use, just opinions that they are bad and should be illegal.

Israeli site talking about cluster munitions

Edited August 16, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[bush_cheney2004]

..Now I have to ask why using cluster bombs is a war crime?

No you don't, 'cause you know better. Some people passionately throw around terms like "war crime" and "genocide" as if they know what they are talking about, but don't.

Lions, tigers, and cluster munitions....oh my!

Edited August 16, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[PoliticalCitizen]

Hey, for all of you non-believers: here's a victim witness report on FOX News (I hope you trust the source):

Pay attention how the host tries to get the witness to shut up (in the spirit of Democracy and in the name of Freedom).

[PoliticalCitizen]

What makes that a Utopia, you need to brush up on your world history! The fact is that why you bash the US, you take for granted the privlages provided to you by their military; open and free trading routes, we live under certain amount of security that we won't wake up the next morning to an aggressive invasion, something the Georgians would envy you of.

While the movie you quote was hilarious, and quite over the top there were some fundamental messages their that seem to have escaped you.

I am going to recommend some "light" reading for you.

Churchill And America

Martin Gilbert

To Rule the Waves How the British Navy Shaped the Modern World

Arthur Herman

History of the English Speaking Peoples (If you short on time, its only the last two volumes that deal with the last couple of hundred years)

Winston Churchill

If these are not to your taste, I can recommend a few more.

Thank you! I will take note and read some of these books at my earliest opportunity. You are correct - I am much more familiar with the history they taught us in Soviet schools then the history of British Navy.

However, history aside, I do not think any self-respecting country in the world would like to be "policed" by another, more powerful country.

In the ideal world that would be a great idea... But then in the ideal world there should be no countries, no armies, no famine, no wars...

[PoliticalCitizen]

Was there even one nation of the USSR that was there willingly?

Ukraine?

Belorussia?

Checnya?

LAtvia

Estonia

Lithuania?

Lok at any warsaw pack/ussr country and you will find a litany of oppreseion, murder and worse.

While I sympathize with your indignation I cannot help but notice that you are not very familiar with the former Soviet Union or its Republics.

And I find it totally hipocrytic of Georgia and Ukraine to say they were "held by force" within the Soviet Union. Stalin was Georgian and Khruschev was Ukrainian. The peoples of Soviet Union lived together PEACEFULLY and enjoyed almost equal rights.

If you knew the history of Soviet Union you would know that at the time it was formed Poland (another hypocritic country) was annexed to Russian Empire. And Lenin let them and Finland go away because he wanted the republics to be together WILLINGLY.

Edited August 16, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[PoliticalCitizen]

It doesn't sound like there's any shortage of sphincters in the region.

Determining which side opened fire first is almost impossible. Probably moot too. Any pretext will do when oil and gas are involved.

Dude, look at the DATE of the story in your link. It is 04 of July, which is NOT when the conflict started.

There are no doubts about who started the conflict on 08 of August - it was the Georgian military (with brotherly help from Ukrainians and Estonians, maybe some US mercenaries).

[myata]

However there is no law prohibiting their use, just opinions that they are bad and should be illegal.

From what I understand about it, it's a deadly indiscriminate weapon with a large radius of kill, and its use in populated areas should be avoided to prevent civilian casualties. Makes sense. There's an international convention to prohibit the use of cluster bombs, none of the big shots have signed it.

[bush_cheney2004]

While I sympathize with your indignation I cannot help but notice that you are not very familiar with the former Soviet Union or its Republics.

I like this post, especially the part about the failed state and oh so former Soviet Union. We just say "FSU".

Does anybody miss the "CCCP" athletic jerseys at the Olympics???

[August1991]

I'm sure there's more anecdotes about Bush than anyone could count

And honestly, it is very sad to see that the most powerful country in the world has the least intelligent leader.

PC, if you read the quote, you'd see that Putin believes that Bush fired Dan Rather. In 2005, it is alarming that the president of Russia has so little understanding of how politics is conducted in the West and in America. It is also telling in how Putin exercises power.

When I read this anecdote, it changed considerably my opinion of Putin and confirmed my worst fears. Not only is he ignorant but he's also a thug. Putin's only measure of a person is loyalty to Putin.

The bias against Russia in the Western media regarding the whole Georgia/Ossetia/Russia conflict is astounding. Russia deserves some blame for attacking Georgia with such ferocity, but the western media rarely brings up the fact that Georgia attacked South Ossetia first, a day after they had both agreed to a ceasefire. Using the ceasefire to launch a suprise attack was very cowardly on Georgia's part, yet how aften is this mentioned compared to stories of "the re-awaking of the evil Russian bear!!"?

IMO Russia & Georgia have both acted like a-holes, but Russia just has the bigger guns (and sexier media headline).

If you read the Newsweek interview with Saakashvili, it is quite clear that this Russian invasion was hardly provoked by Georgia.

It is carefully orchestrated Russian propaganda that Georgia provoked Russia to defend South Ossetia. Hitler used a similar premise to invade Poland.

To August: one way to tell the difference, is to examine the deed. Not words, beliefs, or perceptions. Facts. From that point of view, indeed the records of the two presidents balance each other out quite nicely (Iraq and Afghanistan vs Chechnya and the poisoning affair).

Bush has not changed the US constitution to give himself the power to name State governors (rather than let them be elected locally). Bush has not eliminated the Democratic Party as a functioning institution. Bush has not named his own cronies to senior positions in the Congress and then got himself elected as Senate majority leader. The US government does not own directly or through State enterprises all the major media.

Bush doesn't have the power to fire journalists who criticize him.

[August1991]

Double post - deleted.

Edited August 16, 2008 by August1991

[PoliticalCitizen]

PC, if you read the quote, you'd see that Putin believes that Bush fired Dan Rather. In 2005, it is alarming that the president of Russia has so little understanding of how politics is conducted in the West and in America. It is also telling in how Putin exercises power.

When I read this anecdote, it changed considerably my opinion of Putin and confirmed my worst fears. Not only is he ignorant but he's also a thug. Putin's only measure of a person is loyalty to Putin.

I agree, Putin is exercising way more power than the "Democratic" canon dictates. But then that may be exactly what Russia needs to get back on its feet and not be broken into smaller states.

If you read the Newsweek interview with Saakashvili, it is quite clear that this Russian invasion was hardly provoked by Georgia.

My friend, the only source I knew who could rival Saakashvili is the Iraq Minister of Information

[August1991]

I agree, Putin is exercising way more power than the "Democratic" canon dictates. But then that may be exactly what Russia needs to get back on its feet and not be broken into smaller states.

"Russians need a tough guy to keep them in line." That is a sad admission, and it's also false. Putin used it for his own benefit, and then was lucky when the price of oil rose.

Ordinary Russians are smart people who can manage their own affairs. They don't need Putin.

My friend, the only source I knew who could rival Saakashvili is the Iraq Minister of Information

From what I can see, Russia has created the impression that Georgia started this problem/provoked this invasion. IMHO, that impression is false and I am surprised that so many western news outlets accepted the Russian version.

This dispute has existed for years. Russia chose this moment to invade.

Saakashvili is not an information minister (for a neanderthal thug). Saakashvili is someone who is trying to create a civilized country in a part of the world where that's difficult to do.

[PoliticalCitizen]

From what I can see, Russia has created the impression that Georgia started this problem/provoked this invasion. IMHO, that impression is false and I am surprised that so many western news outlets accepted the Russian version.

Hmmm... Now I know you're not Georgian - they usually don't spend time on political forums

Accept the fact. If you don't believe it - check more sources.

Saakashvili is not an information minister (for a neanderthal thug). Saakashvili is someone who is trying to create a civilized country in a part of the world where that's difficult to do.

I guess you missed the joke...

Saakashvili won presidency with US help and by promising Georgian people he would bring their break-away regions back in line.

US have have created some of the best civilized countries - Japan, West Germany, South Korea... but they have also created some of the most inhuman monsters: Saddam, Bin Laden and lately - Saakashvili...

[bush_cheney2004]

...US have have created some of the best civilized countries - Japan, West Germany, South Korea... but they have also created some of the most inhuman monsters: Saddam, Bin Laden and lately - Saakashvili...

....and Russia gave us zero best civilized countries but a lot of nasty ones.

[PoliticalCitizen]

....and Russia gave us zero best civilized countries but a lot of nasty ones.

You have to be thankful USSR kept the nasty ones in for as long as they did (Georgia, Azerbaidzan)

[bush_cheney2004]

You have to be thankful USSR kept the nasty ones in for as long as they did (Georgia, Azerbaidzan)

I don't mean to sound negative, but they even screwed that up.

[moderateamericain]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/16....war/index.html

New and interesting twist. I guess the US is drawing a line in the sand. You get to here and BOOM

[MMT]

While I sympathize with your indignation I cannot help but notice that you are not very familiar with the former Soviet Union or its Republics.

And I find it totally hipocrytic of Georgia and Ukraine to say they were "held by force" within the Soviet Union. Stalin was Georgian and Khruschev was Ukrainian. The peoples of Soviet Union lived together PEACEFULLY and enjoyed almost equal rights.

If you knew the history of Soviet Union you would know that at the time it was formed Poland (another hypocritic country) was annexed to Russian Empire. And Lenin let them and Finland go away because he wanted the republics to be together WILLINGLY.

Excellent Soviet propaganda. Georgia and Ukraine became Soviet republics with a little help of Red Army, didn't they? People of Ukraine enjoyed "Golodomor" with millions killed by commies in 1930s. Ukrainians loved it so much that many even welcomed German Armies, with flowers. They thought that Germans came to liberate them in 1941. Were they kind of idiots?

Not to say that whoever didn't enjoy the communists in power, could enjoy labor and death concentration camps, psycho clinics or trivially killed.

It seems that modern Russia is not so far from that USSR in terms of how people of different ethnicities enjoy living together, isn't it? No ethnic tensions between Russians and people of Caucasus? Georgia and Ukraine are eager to re-join the Putin’s empire, eh? Maybe, my sources are incorrect. Which sources are yours? Putin's state controlled media?

Oh, I forgot to ask something else our lovely historian. Who may I ask the brave Red Army tried to liberate in 1921 and 1939?

Perhaps, it was Poland? and... Finland? How come? These nations decided to join the Red Empire but something stopped their joy? Was it WILLINGLY or not?

What a b... shit!