Open warfare in South Ossetia

[myata]

No, we aren't out of the woods just yet (BBC):

The guy now has to reexamine the deal (the same one he agreed to a few days ago):

Ms Rice will present Mr Saakashvili with a ceasefire deal, but he says he will need a closer look before signing.

It seems to becoming a pattern; let's recall that he also signed another agreement only a few hours before launching massive attack against Ossetia.

And Canada's new and respected international role?

Meanwhile, Canada has become the latest country to cancel a joint military exercise with Russia, scheduled for next week, in protest at its military actions in Georgia.

In it's proper place and order. Has anybody bothered to notice? Why would they? Everybody knows that we'll follow the big pal (with a couple days "independence" delay, of course).

BTW France went on with the naval exercise, while US and the UK withdrew.

Edited August 15, 2008 by myata

[Topaz]

I was listening to Jim Marrs last night and he has a book out called "The Rise of the Fourth Reich" and its about how the US won the war but not the Nazis Check out amazon.com for the reviews on this book. Anyway, he says the elite or the World Order won't happen because they are creating the European Union and the North America Union and they will probably have to buy off China for the Asian Union but they don't like Russia and this war its finds itself in will try to take out Russia. These people want to keep the world at war, after all there is money in war, America already are seeing the changes to its country and their ways by the so called 9/11.

[M.Dancer]

Jim Marrs is a comspiracy nut, tr00ther and expert on aliens and telepathy.

I believes he uses telepathy to send messages to people's toasters and microwaves.

[myata]

Yes I can see how the world could start rolling toward a new system of "unions". I.e. ahead into the not so long forgotten past. And the "Western" union seems to be doing a lot to make it happen.

Edited August 15, 2008 by myata

[Argus]

I see a lot of Russian haters on this board...

I see that we have yet another new member who wants to defend Russia's military attacks on Georgia.

We live in Canada, a multi-national country that by its very existence proves that all the etnic groups waging wars elsewhere in the world can happily live side-by-side.

We do? Where do you live? Outside Moscow? Or did you just get here?

G E N O C I D E

The US and Israeli-trained and armed Georgian military almost leveled the city of Tshinval, killing Ossetian population and Russian peacekeepers. Ossetians reported Georgians who were part of the peacekeeping force shooting Russians and Ossetians.

Thank you, Mr. Putin, we of course, believe you completely, since you have long proven what an honest and trustworthy individual you are. And of course your devotion to human rights has been shown repeatedly, especially your commitement to a free and independant press so the people can learn the truth.

What the criminal regime of Saakashvili committed is a crime against humanity.

I bet it wasn't anywhere near as bad as what the Russians did in Chechnya though.

A tiny country of 4.5 million people had somehow a quite potent military force,

Potent? How potent? Potent enough to attack a small wayward province of 70,000 people?

that incurred more death and destruction than Russians anticipated. Now Ossetians have found bodies of African-American fighters that somehow were in the ranks of the Georgian army.

Of course they have, Mr. Putin, and no doubt they would show them except for their care for not wanting to embarrass the Americans..

Oh yes, to the flaming Anglo-Saxons of this board: don't you dare tell anyone to go back home! Your ancestors exterminated the American Indian population of this continent. Remember that and respect all board members.

For a people who were exterminated there seem to be quite a few natives still around here, though perhaps as you are clearly not from around here you would not know that. So how's the weather over there, Mr. Putin?

Edited August 15, 2008 by Argus

[GostHacked]

Lebanon, I would say the Israelis were excessive here, But again, outside of providing them with arms We had very little to do with what they did, I didnt look up the latest incursion that they made into Lebanon so i couldnt tell you death counts among civilian populations during that last fight.

Quite right. Some of the first reports indicated Hamas has captured a couple Israeli soldiers. Hezbollah captured a couple soon after. We know who got the brunt of the attacks.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/24/...dier/index.html

Hamas militants captured Shalit during a raid on an Israeli army post near the Israel-Gaza-Egypt border on June 25, 2006, according to Israel Defense Forces. Two other Israeli soldiers were killed in the assault.

Weeks after Shalit's capture, Hezbollah militants launched a cross-border raid from Lebanon north of Israel and kidnapped two Israeli soldiers, touching off the war between Israel and Hezbollah.

---

In the audiotape released in June, Shalit said he was "disappointed by the lack of interest on the part of the Israeli government and army."

Israel simply chose who they wanted to retaliate against. They got two choices. Was it the right decision? Why did they not go smashing into Palestine before Lebanon?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/878873.html

Palestinian gunmen with links to the Islamic Hamas movement tunneled from Gaza into Israel, killed two Israeli soldiers and captured tank crewman Corporal Gilad Shalit, on June 25, 2006.

Three weeks later, Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas crossed Israel's northern border and captured two soldiers, Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, triggering a 34-day war between Israel and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

--

It was only after Cpl. Shalit's capture that Israel started arresting Hamas legislators and ministers who had participated in Israeli-sanctioned Palestinian elections in January 2006, said Whitson.

Two captures in similar fashions garnered drasticly different responses. Why?

[moderateamericain]

Exactly. It's the psyche that takes facts and figures and makes conclusions from them, n'est ce pas? Kosovo (Wikipedia: Kosovo) is proportionate; South Ossetia - no. How do you know that? I mean how did you come to that conclusion? By what, psychology?

By reading facts and figures, any logical, rational mind would see that Kosovo separatists got independence for exactly same thing as South Ossetian ones are now being accused of. Don't believe me? OK, how about a little "spot the difference" game? Read the information and tell us, what is that essential principal difference(s) that made NATO involvement in Kosovo, and subsequent granting of independence, good and proportionate, while Russian in Ossetia - OK, everybody knows what. Please check here ( ) if you think that it's because US and NATO are the shining force of good, while Russia - abomination direct from hell. That would be exactly the point of my research.

THe difference is the United states hasnt killed 28 million of its own citizens in the last century and 50 million total. The russians should not be the defend of anything but itself. They have proven they are the absolute last country we want using there military in any way. THe problem with what your proposing is not the 1 to 1 comparison its the total picture over the last 100 to 200 years.

Using your own media source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War *I would not consider this reliable source* The Russians have no regard for human life

Edited August 15, 2008 by moderateamericain

[myata]

THe difference is the United states hasnt killed 28 million of its own citizens in the last century and 50 million total.

I see... that's seems to be the only argument out there. Whatever we do is good (obviously..., we're on the side of goodness), and whatever they do, is bound to be wrong (and disproportionate). Principles, laws, facts and numbers won't matter one bit.

So, my diagnosis was correct, after all?

[White Doors]

I see... that's seems to be the only argument out there. Whatever we do is good (obviously..., we're on the side of goodness), and whatever they do, is bound to be wrong (and disproportionate). Principles, laws, facts and numbers won't matter one bit.

So, my diagnosis was correct, after all?

No, from what I can gather, your diagnosis is that whatever the USA does it bad, even when it is good.

Then there are alot of yada yada yada's and so forth.

Heck, you hijacked this thread about a war between Russia and Georgia and all you can do is talk about how bad the west and specifically, the US is.

Not all things are about the Great Satan, myata. This one being one of them.

Perhaps you should attempt to stay on subject.

There are already a plethora of 'Great Satan' threads, go play in the mud there.

Edited August 15, 2008 by White Doors

[moderateamericain]

I see... that's seems to be the only argument out there. Whatever we do is good (obviously..., we're on the side of goodness), and whatever they do, is bound to be wrong (and disproportionate). Principles, laws, facts and numbers won't matter one bit.

So, my diagnosis was correct, after all?

.............!

please tell me somebody doesn't see the irony of this. I have provided facts and figurers to back up my claims. Facts and Numbers DO matter and I am the one providing them. I have answered every challenge you have asked me and showed you my reasoning. I dont know what else you want me to show you? This is turning laughable.

[myata]

This is turning laughable.

Indeed. Just keep saying it, and someone may yet take it as truth.

For the reference, and for the last time (if it hasn't been made clear enough in the previous x--- posts), here's the main questions I'd like answered:

1. If West, and US in particular was really and genuinly concerned about peace and stability in the region, why didn't they restrain their puppet, who was obviously preparing for a massive military action? I mean come on, don't play innocente, these preparations take weeks if not months and Pentagon people were sure to notice that something was brewing up... but of course, see no evil, from those who are mine.

2. If --- see above, why did they not react in force in the first hours of Georgia's attacks, which would have stopped the whole affair right there, and instead stonewalled Security Council meetings till the thing got really and seriously out of control? Whose interest it was and how can it be explained by the theory of peace, justice and goodness?

3. Given the reported civilian casualties on both sides (which of course need to be verified independently, but general picture should have emerged, by now) and how they compared with sited previous records of NATO (and its partners or allies) operations, why do we continue to hear (and you continue to insist) that the response in this conflict was grossly disproportionate, while cited NATO operations were not.

BTW, despite your claims to the contrary, you have yet to provide us with a logical, fact based argument(s) as to why NATO action in Kosovo had been proportionate, while Russia's in Ossetia - was not.

Edited August 15, 2008 by myata

[bush_cheney2004]

...So, my diagnosis was correct, after all?

No, far from it, but we can't wait for your psychoanalysis of the Russians. I'm sure they would pause to objectively consider "good" and "bad" in between raping and pillaging.

[eyeball]

No, from what I can gather, your diagnosis is that whatever the USA does it bad, even when it is good.

Then there are alot of yada yada yada's and so forth.

Heck, you hijacked this thread about a war between Russia and Georgia and all you can do is talk about how bad the west and specifically, the US is.

Not all things are about the Great Satan, myata. This one being one of them.

Perhaps you should attempt to stay on subject.

There are already a plethora of 'Great Satan' threads, go play in the mud there.

OTOH, it does seem that whatever the US does is good, even when its bad. Go ask BC if you don't believe me.

Russia/Georgia is simply about power and wealth via oil. Its a little late for the west to pretend Russia doesn't have as much might to make right as any other super-rogue with the might to do so. That fat lady sang a long long time ago.

There's probably nothing humanity will be able to do about this until such time as the oil or any other resource that makes powerful people richer runs out. The only way to beat this conundrum is to somehow contain or get between power and wealth so they don't corrupt people so easily. We need to figure this out soon because the water-hole is only going to get smaller and the animals are going to get meaner.

[myata]

No, far from it, ..

And of course, all argumentation went missing on the way. Who cares! It must be the order of the day.

but we can't wait for your psychoanalysis of the Russians.

In the context of this topic, I tried to give some insights. One can probably add that they seemed to have been taken completely by surprise and blew back stronger than was necessary. Anyways, a good point, I'll try to summarise it in one post.

.... between raping and pillaging.

Wow, you're free to blow all kinds of accusations; this is Internet, not a court of law, it doesn't require any evidence or conviction; but certainly, the US troops were convicted of both (as well as deliberate murder of civilians)? And it's pretty much an established fact that Georgia's troops were shelling a populated city with heavy artillery and multiple rocket launchers. Severe need of excuses, I understand.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Argus,

Name-calling and personal attacks are the arguments of a disgruntled 12-year old.

If you will continue trying to bully members of this board I will just have to ingnore you like I would ignore a regular troll. Just because you've posted a lot here doesn't mean this board is your private playground.

Now, if you want to continue an intelligent discussion, I will answer your comments:

I see that we have yet another new member who wants to defend Russia's military attacks on Georgia.

Your information is one-sided. If you are proud of your ignorance of the other side - please continue posting in the same spirit. If you would like to know more about the other side of the story read Reuters or watch videos at www.russiatoday.com/en

Thank you, Mr. Putin

I'll take that as a compliment. I don't believe you would take as a compliment me calling you mr. Bush

I bet it wasn't anywhere near as bad as what the Russians did in Chechnya though.

There were no night-time bombings of Grozny without a warning for civillians to evacuate and using GRAD rocket systems designed to level entire areas.

Potent? How potent? Potent enough to attack a small wayward province of 70,000 people?

Georgia's several thousands strong military, trained and armed by US and Israel, is disproportionately big for such a small country. By comparison Moldova (who also has a break-away province of Transdniestria) has no tanks, no aviation and a relatively small army. It is obvious that the "democratically elected" government of Georgia planned to invade the Ossetia and Abkhazia for a long time, and were prepared to defeat not just the "rebels" but the Russian peace-keeping forces in the region as well.

Of course they have, Mr. Putin, and no doubt they would show them except for their care for not wanting to embarrass the Americans..

This could be a lie - that happens a lot in a conflict. But the genocide is not a lie - just take a look at what's left of the city of Tshinval.

[M.Dancer]

Georgia's several thousands strong military, trained and armed by US and Israel, is disproportionately big for such a small country.

citation please.

All the photos I have seen of the Georgians have them armed with soviet era equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Georgia#Equipment

Didn't realize how much crappy warsaw pact kit the US and Israel has to sell

Edited August 15, 2008 by M.Dancer

[Argus]

Argus,

Name-calling and personal attacks are the arguments of a disgruntled 12-year old.

That would seem to be about the level of sophistication of someone who believs the drivel being spouted by the Kremlin word for word.

I'll take that as a compliment. I don't believe you would take as a compliment me calling you mr. Bush

You take it as a compliment, do you? If you weren't from a backward culture you'd probably have a better idea just how revealing a comment like that is. A compliment, to be compared to a vicious, murdering thief like Putin who has almost single-handedly ended democracy in Russia and put the country firmly back into the ranks of authoritarian tyrannies. And you find that a compliment?

Bush is just a gold old boy, and the worst you can say about him is he isn't an intellectual. Personally I'd far rather be compared to a good-old boy who still managed to succeed than to a murdering scumbag like Putin.

There were no night-time bombings of Grozny without a warning for civillians to evacuate and using GRAD rocket systems designed to level entire areas.

Well I suppose we'll have to take your word for that since Russian agents murdered any reporters who managed to sneak into Chechnia.

[Argus]

citation please.

All the photos I have seen of the Georgians have them armed with soviet era equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Georgia#Equipment

Didn't realize how much crappy warsaw pact kit the US and Israel has to sell

And I haven't heard a word about Israeli involvement except from conspiracy wackos. But some people simply have to bring the evil Israelis into everything.

[PoliticalCitizen]

moderateamericain,

I appreciate you starting this thread and hope that you meant it to be used for the discussion of the situation in Georgia and not to utter hate speach towads Russia and Russian people. Saying things like "The Russians have no regard for human life" is ignorant and show how little control your mind has over your anger. Remember that there are hundreds of thousands of Russians in both Canada and US, some of them may be reading the postings on this board. If your intent was to start a US vs. Russia thread - we can do that and say ugly things to each other - gloves off

If you want to discuss news:

Saakashvili signed the cease-fire agreement today. One of the points of that agreement was that Georgian territorial integrity in the pre-war shape is no longer a possibility. Ulike Kosovo, Abkhazia and South Ossetia's independence will have to be achieved by following the existing European and international laws and agreements.

[PoliticalCitizen]

And I haven't heard a word about Israeli involvement except from conspiracy wackos. But some people simply have to bring the evil Israelis into everything.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g8GZ3q...4_h91nTTppS-Yjw

"Around a year ago Israel decided to limit its aid to Georgia to defensive weaponry and military advisors, and at present its aid stands at 200 million dollars (120 million euros), the newspaper said.

Israel has in the past sold aerial drones, night-vision equipment, and rockets to Georgia, and many retired officers from the Israel's military and internal security services work as military advisors there. "

[AngusThermopyle]

Once again Myata you are right. The Russians are and always have been the embodiment of good, all that is kind and noble about the human spirit.

It was kindness and goodness that led them to booby trap toys with explosives in Afghanistan. It was the same kindness they would employ when they'd hold a villager down and run a T-72 over them starting at the feet in order to make the other villagers talk.

It was kindness and goodness that led them to murder over 50,000,000 of their own, just pure goodness.

If you actually knew anything you'd realise that these tactics are nothing exceptional for the Russians, rather they are just the way they do things. The last report I saw said they are not honouring any cease fire and that Russian supported Ossetians are pillaging, looting and burning homes and businesses. As I said, that was the last report I read, it may be wrong but it certainly does sound like business as usual for the Russians.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Remember that there are hundreds of thousands of Russians in both Canada and US, some of them may be reading the postings on this board. If your intent was to start a US vs. Russia thread - we can do that and say ugly things to each other - gloves off

Gosh I hope so...they left Russia for a reason...no? I work with them every weekday, and they shake their heads over Putin, not because they love Bush, but because they know Bush will be gone come January...no matter what.

If hate speech were an issue on this forum, the Americans would have a much bigger complaint than the Russians.

[bush_cheney2004]

And of course, all argumentation went missing on the way. Who cares! It must be the order of the day.

It is the order of the day, week, month, year, decade, and century.

In the context of this topic, I tried to give some insights. One can probably add that they seemed to have been taken completely by surprise and blew back stronger than was necessary. Anyways, a good point, I'll try to summarise it in one post.

If you have time, please compare and contrast with your best example of "good", so we can be very amused.

Wow, you're free to blow all kinds of accusations; this is Internet, not a court of law, it doesn't require any evidence or conviction; but certainly, the US troops were convicted of both (as well as deliberate murder of civilians)? And it's pretty much an established fact that Georgia's troops were shelling a populated city with heavy artillery and multiple rocket launchers. Severe need of excuses, I understand.

What part of trial and conviction don't you understand? I can't wait for the TV episodes of "JAG"...Russian style.

Your established "fact" isn't any better that any others. Would it be better if they used "light" artillery and single rocket launchers, you know, like your "good" pals on the West Bank?

[PoliticalCitizen]

That would seem to be about the level of sophistication of someone who believs the drivel being spouted by the Kremlin word for word.

You take it as a compliment, do you? If you weren't from a backward culture you'd probably have a better idea just how revealing a comment like that is. A compliment, to be compared to a vicious, murdering thief like Putin who has almost single-handedly ended democracy in Russia and put the country firmly back into the ranks of authoritarian tyrannies. And you find that a compliment?

Bush is just a gold old boy, and the worst you can say about him is he isn't an intellectual. Personally I'd far rather be compared to a good-old boy who still managed to succeed than to a murdering scumbag like Putin.

Argus,

As I told moderateamericain we can have a separate US and Russia-bashing thread. I'm sure you can imagine how many ugly things can be said by either side.

Let me ask you a simple question: Have you heard anyone from Bush's administration even mention the terms Ossetia or Ossetian? Their behaviour would imply that such things don't even exist...

If you are concerned with who's doing what to help civilian population and restore the infrastructure:

Bush has pledged $250K USD (lol) in help for Georgia + some "Humanitarian" shipments that for whatever reason have to be delivered by military means;

Putin has pledged $460M USD (10bil rubles) to rebuild Tshinval.

[M.Dancer]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g8GZ3q...4_h91nTTppS-Yjw

"Around a year ago Israel decided to limit its aid to Georgia to defensive weaponry and military advisors, and at present its aid stands at 200 million dollars (120 million euros), the newspaper said.

Israel has in the past sold aerial drones, night-vision equipment, and rockets to Georgia, and many retired officers from the Israel's military and internal security services work as military advisors there. "

So in ither words, bugger all. Thanks for that.