Open warfare in South Ossetia

[moderateamericain]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_...CwSd6Mh78pvaA8F

In case you dont know this Georgia is actively trying to join with NATO. The US trains Georgian troops who currently have about 2k in Iraq. This is getting beyond serious. Open warefare is a big deal. Especially when dealing with two kids on the block who historically dont flinch when it comes to games of chicken.

[myata]

What can one expect? Once the big brother showed the way of establishing constitutional order, the lesser vassals decided to follow by example.

[bush_cheney2004]

What can one expect? Once the big brother showed the way of establishing constitutional order, the lesser vassals decided to follow by example.

I agree...one shouldn't have to wait 115 years for permission from a throne.

[myata]

And now everybody get ready for a lecture, with honest, earnest and straight face (i.e after Kosovo) about how the territorial sovereignty of their protege should be maintained at all cost.

[HistoryBuff44]

What is war on South Ossetia? That is open and arrogant breaking of international agreements. And the blame is on the shoulders of all the Georgians who voted for the militant president and who’s taking his side presently. I am deeply disappointed with the Georgians as a people.

Saakashvili dared to mar the best and most important event in international life. He spilled the blood of the innocents on the opening day of Olympic Games! After this how can Georgian team brave to continue participation in the games? They must quit it! Kick’em out of here! Hiss’em off! Rotten eggs would be the best Olympic awards for’em!! And Saakashvili as well!

I dont think we should be too hasty to believe we understand the whole situation and condemn one side over the other. The Georgian claim is that the Russian "peace keepers" have been aiding the separatists for a long time now. The story is in the headlines now but the killing was happening for a while.

I do agree that it is unfortunate that the games will be remembered also as the day a new war erupted between Russia and Georgia.

Edited August 9, 2008 by HistoryBuff44

[MMT]

I dont think we should be too hasty to believe we understand the whole situation and condemn one side over the other. The Georgian claim is that the Russian "peace keepers" have been aiding the separatists for a long time now. The story is in the headlines now but the killing was happening for a while.

I do agree that it is unfortunate that the games will be remembered also as the day a new war erupted between Russia and Georgia.

The truth is that South Osetia belongs to Georgia. They maintain their right to regain full control over it. The truth is that Russia wanted to control that mountain region because of transit of Chechen oil in exchange of illegally produced Osetian's alcohol back to Russia (even Georgia was against Russia's presence in there).

Also, check my previous post http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=11598 (McCain + Osetia = Russia without Caucasus).

It's really well planned and executed campaign with long term interests of one main player - USA.

[moderateamericain]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia

1500+ killed

[Argus]

What is war on South Ossetia? That is open and arrogant breaking of international agreements. And the blame is on the shoulders of all the Georgians who voted for the militant president and who’s taking his side presently. I am deeply disappointed with the Georgians as a people.

Saakashvili dared to mar the best and most important event in international life. He spilled the blood of the innocents on the opening day of Olympic Games! After this how can Georgian team brave to continue participation in the games? They must quit it! Kick’em out of here! Hiss’em off! Rotten eggs would be the best Olympic awards for’em!! And Saakashvili as well!

Uhm, yeah, that's a load of horse shit. But as you're obviously a Russian, a place where there is no freedom of speech, press, association, or anything else, you might think others would believe drivel like that.

For those who don't know anything about what's going on here, the short form is this: Imperial Russia is highly peeved that most of its empire has drifted off. It wants it back. For the last ten years Emperor Putin has been trying, by hook and by crook (and by poison), to get places like Ukraine and Georgia back into the fold. Russian agents inspired the "independence" movement in this particular border region. They provided weapons and money, as well as logistics and mercenaries. Then they sent in what they call "peacekeeping forces" to protect them from "Georgian aggression" and handed out Russian passports to everybody. This is pretty much naked aggression in the old fashioned imperial way of seizing territory for the empire. With no free press the Russian government is now portraying this as "protecting" its "citizens" from the evil Georgians. However, the Georgian government, unlike the Russian government, is a representative democracy. The Russian government is a thugocracy, basically what you'd find if mafia dons were in all major political offices.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Argus

[moderateamericain]

Uhm, yeah, that's a load of horse shit. But as you're obviously a Russian, a place where there is no freedom of speech, press, association, or anything else, you might think others would believe drivel like that.

For those who don't know anything about what's going on here, the short form is this: Imperial Russia is highly peeved that most of its empire has drifted off. It wants it back. For the last ten years Emperor Putin has been trying, by hook and by crook (and by poison), to get places like Ukraine and Georgia back into the fold. Russian agents inspired the "independence" movement in this particular border region. They provided weapons and money, as well as logistics and mercenaries. Then they sent in what they call "peacekeeping forces" to protect them from "Georgian aggression" and handed out Russian passports to everybody. This is pretty much naked aggression in the old fashioned imperial way of seizing territory for the empire. With no free press the Russian government is now portraying this as "protecting" its "citizens" from the evil Georgians. However, the Georgian government, unlike the Russian government, is a representative democracy. The Russian government is a thugocracy, basically what you'd find if mafia dons were in all major political offices.

I agree with this Summary to an extent. I look at it like if Alaska decided to break off from the USA, we put troops there to prevent it and Russia came across the strait and started a war. Its roughly the same thing.

Also, With Georgia being a fairly strong ally of the USA, 3rd most troop support in Iraq I believe. How do we handle the delicate task of protecting an ally and making sure world war 3 doesnt break loose.

Edited August 9, 2008 by moderateamericain

[zeitgeist1]

Hello. I will try to explain what is going on. First of all - do not trust Systems Of Mass Information. You ask - why?

1) The war in south ossetia begin at ONE DAY early , then the CNN and BBC told about it. Why? Cuz AFTER the Gorgia starting agression , russian tanks and etc coming to Ossetia. And EXACTLY in this moment CNN and BBC starting to shouting about it. Why in this time? Cuz nobody will trust , what the small Gorgia can starting agression.

2) This provocation and lie , what you see at yr TV is proved by the one film - _http://zeitgeistmovie.com/ . Just look.

NOBODY WANTS THE WAR (exept ppl , who trying to make a slaves from us)

[madi]

Why attacking South Ossetia?

Really, I'm surprised to know that Mr Saakashvili undertook that senseless aggression against South Ossetia. What did he rely on having a wretched army (yes, we know it from experience of using Georgian forces in Iraq)? Did he really hope that the West would immediately offer him help? No, it won't as not a single country would want to have anything to do with aggression and genocide of a nation that Saakashvili gave start to in South Ossetia. Howbeit Georgian military were toughly repulsed and virtually shitted their pants! Or how else can one explain the fact that Georgian military headquarters and command posts in Tbilisi, Gori and other Georgian cities began to hurriedly evacuate from their dislocations? Besides, there is a hearsay in Georgia asserting that Mr Saakashvili is about to leave the country and ask political asylum in Turkey.

[Argus]

Why attacking South Ossetia?

Really, I'm surprised to know that Mr Saakashvili undertook that senseless aggression against South Ossetia. What did he rely on having a wretched army (yes, we know it from experience of using Georgian forces in Iraq)? Did he really hope that the West would immediately offer him help? No, it won't as not a single country would want to have anything to do with aggression and genocide of a nation

There is no genocide, and south Ossetia is not nor has ever been a nation of any kind. It is a a tiny catspaw of imperial Russia being used against the Georgians by Putin to force Georgia back into Russia's sphere. There are fewer people in this "nation" than in a small city. Most of its population seems to consist of Russian intelligence officers, Russian mercenaries (spetznatz) and Russian "peacekeers".

You and your thuggish government seem to enjoy beating up on weak nations. Be careful you don't overextend yourselves.

[zeitgeist1]

You are wrong. The Russia do not want Gorgia back. The Russian forces do not fighting on Gorgia's land. The gorgian forces fighting for this region about 20 years. at this region 90% + Russian ppl , who want make his own republic.

Btw i think you understand how the Gorgia became "the part" of USA . Money and nothing else. And money not for the gorgian ppl, money only for goverment. USA goverment lies to own ppl , but i think they are havent choice. They are dont want Kenedy's desteny.

Actualy , Russian forces in South Ossetia by the law. And this is constitution. This constitution was ignored and betraded by Saakashvili.(not the ppl of Gorgia, just the Saakashvili and the goverment of Gorgia).

Try to find official site of South Ossetia , and read what they r telling. They r calling for help to protect them from Gorgian forces.

Use google.

[myata]

And look who's now talking about "disproportionate response"! Not the same people perchance who started Iraq and Afghanistan wars? Certainly not those who bombed Belgrade during Kosovo crisis? Wow. Such a shameless hypocrisy sure calls for a special, out of ordinary, talent.

[Argus]

And look who's now talking about "disproportionate response"! Not the same people perchance who started Iraq and Afghanistan wars? Certainly not those who bombed Belgrade during Kosovo crisis? Wow. Such a shameless hypocrisy sure calls for a special, out of ordinary, talent.

Speaking about hypocrisy, when Chechins wanted to leave Russia Emperor Putin lined up artillery wheel to wheel and bombarded civilian areas of Chechin cities for days. No one will ever know how many he killed, but most of Chechnia was destroyed. Since Russia killed any journalists that got in there we still have yet to hear the full story of what the Russians did there.

Now suddenly we have the great humanitarian Putin, crying crocodile tears over the welfare of these people in Georgia and vowing to protect them from aggression? Does this mean we should allow the rest of the world to send in tanks, soldiers and bombers to protect the chechins from the evil Russian aggressors? Would Emperor Putin be okay with that, I wonder?

[Argus]

You are wrong. The Russia do not want Gorgia back.

Emperor Putin has vowed to rebuild the Soviet Union, and he has been twisting arms and using troops in former Soviet Republics since he came to power. If he can't put his people into power (for example, by poisoning the opposition leader in Ukiraine) then he uses oil money to bribe, or to threaten and destabilize neighboring governments, and now he's using troops to attack them.

The Russian forces do not fighting on Gorgia's land. The gorgian forces fighting for this region about 20 years. at this region 90% + Russian ppl , who want make his own republic.

Of course it's Georgia's land. The entire world says it is so. Nobody recognizes South Ossetia as independant. And we saw how sympathetic to breakaway groups the Russians are in Chechnia. How many Chechins did you kill there, I wonder.

Actualy , Russian forces in South Ossetia by the law. And this is constitution. This constitution was ignored and betraded by Saakashvili.(not the ppl of Gorgia, just the Saakashvili and the goverment of Gorgia).

Oh please do not try to talk about law. Russia is a lawless land ruled by corrupt mafia dons. There is no law but what you pay for.

Georgia is a democratic nation. Russia is not.

[Shady]

And look who's now talking about "disproportionate response"! Not the same people perchance who started Iraq and Afghanistan wars? Certainly not those who bombed Belgrade during Kosovo crisis? Wow. Such a shameless hypocrisy sure calls for a special, out of ordinary, talent.

Speaking of hypocrisy. I'm still waiting for the protestors against this illegal and unjust war initiated by Russia. You know, the same ones that showed up to protest America's intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq. So far, all I hear is silence.

[M.Dancer]

Russian soldiers dying is never a bad thing....unless they win.

[moderateamericain]

And look who's now talking about "disproportionate response"! Not the same people perchance who started Iraq and Afghanistan wars? Certainly not those who bombed Belgrade during Kosovo crisis? Wow. Such a shameless hypocrisy sure calls for a special, out of ordinary, talent.

The problem I have with that argument is that the United states did invade those countries, but the difference is that we actually try to clean up what we break and if you want to compare US imperial tendencies with those of Russia pre revolution and USSR days. It doesn't even come close. Russia ranks right up there with China in human right violations. If you want any country to defend S Ossetia the last people you want is the ones that have proven over and over again for hundreds of years that they care little for there own people and even less for other countries. We can argue for hours about whether or not invading Iraq was correct. But one thing you cannot do is compare the US to Russia in its treatment of other countries. Doesn't even come close.

[HisSelf]

Well of course this just has to remind me of the hegemony that the US has been building with an increasingly disappearing set of 'partners'. Well, OK. Sidekicks. 'Wahl pilgrim..' Interesting that the Georgians have declared they will withdraw their 1000 troops from Iraq. Heh heh. So I have this black and white picture of the Archduke Ferdinand emreging from the fog. I don't know why. Maybe he is running the marathon in Beijing. Maybe he's just smoking a cee-gar in Havana. Earth to the Archduke.... Earth to the duke... Earth to pilgrim....

Say, Mistuh Wayne. Did you ever actually enlist?

"I will now proceed to entangle the entire area." Crosby Stills and Nash.

Edited August 10, 2008 by HisSelf

[Shady]

And look who's now talking about "disproportionate response"! Not the same people perchance who started Iraq and Afghanistan wars? Certainly not those who bombed Belgrade during Kosovo crisis? Wow. Such a shameless hypocrisy sure calls for a special, out of ordinary, talent.

Oh, and the Afghanistan and Iraq wars were started by Al Qaeda's terrorist attacks on 911 (they are based in Afghanistan, under the Taliban's protection), and Saddam Hussein's violation of the cease-fire agreement, when he expelled weapons inspectors for a period of 4 years, while at the same time, attempting to shoot down American and British aircraft patrolling the no-fly zone. Let's put the blame where it belongs.

However, I don't want us to get off-topic. I think we all need to focus on the illegal and unjust war perpetuated by Russia. I want to see the F-Putin signs, the no blood for oil signs, and the worlds biggest terrorist signs with a picture of Vladimir Putin.

[myata]

The problem I have with that argument is that the United states did invade those countries, but the difference is that we actually try to clean up what we break and if you want to compare US imperial tendencies with those of Russia pre revolution and USSR days. It doesn't even come close. Russia ranks right up there with China in human right violations. If you want any country to defend S Ossetia the last people you want is the ones that have proven over and over again for hundreds of years that they care little for there own people and even less for other countries. We can argue for hours about whether or not invading Iraq was correct. But one thing you cannot do is compare the US to Russia in its treatment of other countries. Doesn't even come close.

Can we have enough of the "human rights" soap opera already? It's quickly becoming boring. It's used as a well stretched male birth control appliance whenether there's a need to justify questionnable acts or policies. Let's just look at the acts and forget glorious words for now. Bush wanted regime change in Iraq, and US army conquered Iraq. Putin may very well want regime change in Georgia, but Russians aren't yet invading its proper territory. US attacked Iraq completely unprovoked; Russian observers in Osetia, by all indications, were first attacked by Georgia. The bottom line is, by involving yourself in these highly questionnable adventures you lose any claim to moral position. It's now all about balance of forces and powers, and from that perspective we all know that neither US, nor EU will risk direct conflict with Russia on behalf ot its protege. Full stop.

From that point of view, Argus, indeed the regime in Russia may be corrupt and brutal; it's just that the choice between them and Bush's administration, at least in the international politics is as hard as it ever gets. And so, I choose ... Pepsi!

[bush_cheney2004]

...From that point of view, Argus, indeed the regime in Russia may be corrupt and brutal; it's just that the choice between them and Bush's administration, at least in the international politics is as hard as it ever gets. And so, I choose ... Pepsi!

Pepsi is a product of the US based multinational conglomerate PepsiCo, founded in 1898 (Purchase, NY).

Thank you for choosing Pepsi!

[Argus]

Russian soldiers dying is never a bad thing....unless they win.

Well, Russian soldiers are bottom of the barrel but as the saying goes quantity has a quality all its own. There are 140m Russians and only 4m Georgians.

[Argus]

Can we have enough of the "human rights" soap opera already? It's quickly becoming boring.

Boring? How can it bore you when, as a Russian, you have no human rights? It's a concept completely foreign to you.

Bush wanted regime change in Iraq, and US army conquered Iraq. Putin may very well want regime change in Georgia, but Russians aren't yet invading its proper territory

There is a difference between a democratic nation trying to overthrow a brutal dictator, as in the US -> Iraq situation, and a brutal dictator trying to overthrow a democratic government, as in the Russia - Georgia situation.

; Russian observers in Osetia, by all indications, were first attacked by Georgia

.

Observers? You mean Russian mercenaries there illegally, violating international law and invading the territory of their neighbour? Is that who you mean?

The bottom line is, by involving yourself in these highly questionnable adventures you lose any claim to moral position.

You mean like what Russia is doing now? Not that anyone ever thought the Russians had any morals.

From that point of view, Argus, indeed the regime in Russia may be corrupt and brutal; it's just that the choice between them and Bush's administration, at least in the international politics is as hard as it ever gets.

No, it's actually as easy as it gets. Bush on his worst possible day is ten times more respectful of human rights than Putin on his best day. The Americans are virtually saints compared to Putin and his fellow mafia dons. And only a complete imbecile with the morals of an alley cat wouldn't know that.