How best to defend our values against Suicide Bombers?

[scribblet]

Thanks, now if I can figure out how to set the timer on the VCR LOL I don't know anything about podcasts either.

[Black Dog]

It takes a real low-brow to sit on the sidelines and snidely mock one's own culture when it faces danger

Yep, while it takes a real big man to, uh, sit on the, uh, sidelines and, uh, snidely mock other cultures and spew Chicken Little rhetoric about the impending demise of our own culture.

*slow clap* Bravo.

Moxie:

The socialist loonly left is determined to eradicate any culture that is native to England to replace it with minority group's culture. Bluntly put, the socialist left want to turn England into a socialist Islamic State. If we do not deal with these two radical groups we will, over time, lose our culture and have it replaced with two Idiologies that hate/loathe democracy.

It's amazing that the left would be so stupid as to cooperate with a segment of the population whose views, we are told, is antithetical to every lib/left principle. Even more amazing that, despite being so stupid and self-destructive, they are allegedly winning. What does it say about your side if the morons are winning?

[Moxie]

I took your font mark-up out because it rendered your comments illegible. Once I did that. I realized that they were also unpalatible.

You want to know what my values are? Well here it is. My values are that we need people who take great risks to come here because they believe that this is a great place to live. People who want to bring their families here and raise their kids here. People who come here because they see our political system and our economy and they say, "Yeah. That's the way it should be. That's what is right for my kids. That is a culture that will give me meaning as a human being. That is a culture that will recognize me as a striving, earnest human being. That is a culture that will let me earn a honest living for myself and for my family. That is a culture that will not judge me the moment I show my face, but will give me a chance to prove myself."

What we don't need are people who judge on superficial characteristics.

Thanks for asking.

I changed the fond as an example of how your posts appear to me, gibberish and harsh condemnation of anyone who doesn't view the world through you narrow view finder. Your resonse, is well thought out but it has nothing to do with our history or our culture. You seem quagmired on the issue of race, well that's how you last sentence reads to me. Get over the race issue I'm not talking about race, Canada is made up of many races that have added to this country. Starting with the First Nation and China blah blah. I'm not the one judging on race, you seem to be fixated with it.

Blackdog wrote: It's amazing that the left would be so stupid as to cooperate with a segment of the population whose views, we are told, is antithetical to every lib/left principle. Even more amazing that, despite being so stupid and self-destructive, they are allegedly winning. What does it say about your side if the morons are winning?

Well the hardleft are hard to understand because they change directions like a drunken sailer. You should read some essays on the left and it's stratigic planning or lack there of. They don't have a plan they just dither and pander and appease and make up stupid rules, sceaming racist and hateful bigot. Their most powerful tool is their inability to stay with any plan long term. Why are we losing, simply if we were allowed to use an equal amount of violence as that of the terrorist the left would need epi pens. The left have made sure we don't have the proper tools to deal with radicals, someday that shall change.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Moxie

[kuzadd]

what values, are displayed here, from so many proud westerners.

It's ok to riot, as long as it's at a soccer game.

it's OK to kill as long as thier Muslims

it's OK to invade and occupy, as long as it's Muslim countries.

it's OK to lie to the populace in the west intentionally , to wage war, as long as one does it to a country that is considered lesser then us. "Muslim"

it's OK to torture

Kill kids

As long as there all Muslims??

it's OK to condone all attrocities committed by the west for resource gain, wether it be , land, water, energy.?

So are western cultural tradition values defined as :

hypocrisy, promotion of double standards, and inherent racist tendencies.

A sense of entitlement to other countries resources, etc.,

So we want to defend these values?

Hmm, I wouldn't think these were values.

I thought values were

Definition: Values are deeply held beliefs about what is good, right, and appropriate.

Values are ideals that guide or qualify your personal conduct, interaction with others

so hypocrisy, double standards, implying racial superiority, etc, are "western values"???

Edited November 6, 2007 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Yep, while it takes a real big man to, uh, sit on the, uh, sidelines and, uh, snidely mock other cultures and spew Chicken Little rhetoric about the impending demise of our own culture.

*slow clap* Bravo.

Moxie:

It's amazing that the left would be so stupid as to cooperate with a segment of the population whose views, we are told, is antithetical to every lib/left principle. Even more amazing that, despite being so stupid and self-destructive, they are allegedly winning. What does it say about your side if the morons are winning?

Isn't that really really amazing, why would the "left" cooperate with a segment of the population that has the types of view's moxie claims they have.

I mean really?

I can hardly stand the oppressive "western cultural" views espoused repeatedly on here.

let alone someone else's oppressive views.

[Black Dog]

Well the hardleft are hard to understand because they change directions like a drunken sailer. You should read some essays on the left and it's stratigic planning or lack there of. They don't have a plan they just dither and pander and appease and make up stupid rules, sceaming racist and hateful bigot. Their most powerful tool is their inability to stay with any plan long term.

Gee it's almost as if there's no monolithic "hard left" at all! In fact, I'm inclined to think the whole notion of a "hard left" that drives policy is total b.s.

Why are we losing, simply if we were allowed to use an equal amount of violence as that of the terrorist the left would need epi pens. The left have made sure we don't have the proper tools to deal with radicals, someday that shall change.

The discussion isn't around terrorism, but cultural preservation in the face of immigration. Stay focused.

[Jerry Galinda]

Thats not how Canada really works, you are exageratting the concept of multi-culturalism to the point if the absurd. If that was how it worked Canada would have failed long ago. Each distinct cultural group has the right to practice their faith and beliefs so long as it is under Canadian law. They can't make up their own micro-society with their own laws while on this soil. So if it is a mosaic of distinct elements they still need to fit in to the overall picture

May be I can't understand You (because of my English) - but it's obvious for me that

in order to society really work - "distinct elements" - should - "to fit in the overall picture" !

for me - multi-culturalism - it's not the idea of creating new getthos.

[August1991]

August, m'boy, if you're gonna use a quote of mine from a different thread, at least supply the context in which it originally appeared. Thanks.

...

True as far as it goes, but if you want to get really specific, they were bin-Ladenists (to borrow a turn of phrase from Ol' Hitch). The devil is in the details.

My point was that we face Islamic suicide bombers. Muslims are willing to die for their cause and they seek to kill as many of us as they can.

IOW, we face a new kind of soldier and these soldiers are not Buddhist or Protestant. Buddhists burn themselves and Protestants plant bombs to kill others. These Muslims willingly kill themselves by killing many others. Japanese soldiers did this before but they targetted other soldiers.

The world has known assassins who wanted to kill important figures. This was common in the last half of the 19th century. The world has also known terrorists who wanted to kill many innocent people. There have been bombs in Italy and Lebanon. The world now faces suicide bombers who want to kill themselves and many innocent people. These suicide bombers are generally if not solely Muslim. What do we do?

First off, August1991, service in Napoleon's army was rarely volountary. It was a mass conscript army. Same with the Red Army of WWII, unless choosing the army over the coal pits of Novosibirsk is volounteering. It also was a mass conscript army - just like every other major powers' army was.

Napoleon was the first to attract 'mass conscript' soldiers, as you describe them. Napoleon changed the way armies fought because he changed the motivation of soldiers.

Are we now facing a new type of army? What motivates soldiers?

----

I started this thread because I think we face people who are prepared to die and kill as many of us as they can. What motivates such people? What happens if they have access to modern technology? And then, in the face of such people, how do we best defend our Western values?

This thread unfortunately collapsed to a discussion of what constitutes "western values" rather than a discussion of how best to defend these values.

If there are Muslim suicide bombers in our midst, what do we as western liberals do to defend ourselves?

Edited November 18, 2007 by August1991

[Peter F]

My point was that we face Islamic suicide bombers. Muslims are willing to die for their cause and they seek to kill as many of us as they can.

...

If there are Muslim suicide bombers in our midst, what do we as western liberals do to defend ourselves?

If there are suicide bombers in our midst (be they muslim or not) and you have specific information of who they are then we, not as western liberals but as human beings, inform the police. Other than that we bask in the glory of our western liberalism.

There is nothing else we can do and still remain westerm liberals (whatever that means)

If you, like me, have no specific knowledge of bombers in our midst then whats to worry about? Remain vigilant, suspect your neighbours, lock your doors and windows.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Peter F

[ScottSA]

If there are suicide bombers in our midst (be they muslim or not) and you have specific information of who they are then we, not as western liberals but as human beings, inform the police. Other than that we bask in the glory of our western liberalism.

There is nothing else we can do and still remain westerm liberals (whatever that means)

If you, like me, have no specific knowledge of bombers in our midst then whats to worry about? Remain vigilant, suspect your neighbours, lock your doors and windows.

And bury your head in the sand. Don't forget that final methodology.

[Peter F]

And bury your head in the sand. Don't forget that final methodology.

Oh yeah...Or take the ScottSA approach; Ban Islam.

[August1991]

Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan’s opposition leader and one of the country’s best known politicians, was assassinated today in a stunning suicide attack that also killed at least 20 others at a rally.

Link

What kind of person straps on several bombs and goes into a crowd to self-detonate?

What kind of person commits suicide while intentionally killing others, sometimes famous?

It is one thing if this is random violence because a deranged person wants to achieve celebrity in a tragic manner. It is another thing if this is the way some people conduct a new form of warfare.

Earlier in this thread, I suggested that Muslims are connected to suicide bombings. I think that's true but it's also misleading:

Rajiv Gandhi, the 46-year-old former Indian prime minister, has been assassinated.

He was campaigning for the Congress Party on the second day of voting in the world's largest democratic election when a powerful bomb, hidden in a basket of flowers, exploded killing him instantly.

At least 14 other people were also killed in the attack in the town of Sriperumbudur, about 30 miles from Madras, the capital of the southern state of Tamil Nadu.

...

It later emerged that a female Tamil Tiger (LTTE) suicide bomber had assassinated Rajiv Gandhi.

BBC

----

At the start of the movie "The Guns of Navarone", a soldier suggests that one easy way to achieve the object of destroying the guns would be to send in pilots on a suicide mission - unfortunately, the soldier asks, who would volunteer for the mission?

Japanese kamikaze pilots did exactly that. But they died destroying military targets. Is there a difference between a kamikaze and someone who kills innocent civilians? Not really.

Suicide bombers are just another form of warfare and it seems to me that as technology has advanced, the idea of dying while killing as many of the "others" becomes another tactic.

In the event of a Nazi invasion of England, Churchill was once described saying this:

At lunch he talked politics, politicians, the war. Several things I had never heard of: for one, if the Germans had invaded the country and government had had to scatter, he had it in mind to form a triumvirate with Beaverbrook and Ernest Bevin. For another: he had thought of a slogan to broadcast in case of invasion —"You can always take one with you."

----

All this depresses me. I fear that our future in the West will include suicide bombers of various sorts. Israel has had to deal with suicide bombers. To defend ourselves, we too will probably have to adopt similar policies as Israel.

Edited February 2, 2008 by August1991

[Topaz]

I can't give you a link on this item except to say I printed off when I found it on the net. It does say"Exclusive to American Free Press" and it was written by Michael Collins Piper. and I quote" After seven months of non-stop declaration by US government spokemen that there exists solid proof tying 19 Muslim men to the plotting of Sept.11th, FBI director Robert Mueller has NOW admitted the opposite. That naming 19 Muslim men who have apparently disappeared have been named as the hijackers is now in doubt. What is in doubt is whether THOSE 19 men were actually plotting anything, either individually or together." Since this story is rather long I will try to shorten it a bit but include the important points. Muller says in a speech on April 19th,that the hijackers left no paper trail, either in the US, Afghanistan or elsewhere-- that mentioned the 9/11 plot. He also said law enforcement official say that while they have been able to reconstruct the movements of the hijackers before the attacks, all legal except for a few speeding tickets, they have found no evidence of their ACTUAL PLOTTING. Mueller explained this by saying the hijackers used "meticulous planning,extraordinary secrecy and excessive knowledge of how America works. BUT, right after 9/11, the gov't came out and said it had firm evidnece that is was 19 Muslims, agents to OBL network. Mueller seems to forget that the gov't and media reports said the "discoveries" of letters and other documents, in their luggage and personal belongings that proofed that were on a mission for Allah. Mueller seems to contradict everthing the gov't had been saying about the 19 Muslims.

[kengs333]

All this depresses me. I fear that our future in the West will include suicide bombers of various sorts. Israel has had to deal with suicide bombers. To defend ourselves, we too will probably have to adopt similar policies as Israel.

Can't think of a country that has ever allowed large numbers of people enter it that comprised the same ideology that it was currently at war with.

[Peter F]

Can't think of a country that has ever allowed large numbers of people enter it that comprised the same ideology that it was currently at war with.

And what 'ideology' are we allowing to enter that is comprised of the 'ideology' we are at war with?

[August1991]

REMOTE-CONTROLLED explosives strapped to two women with Down's syndrome were detonated in co-ordinated attacks on pet bazaars in Baghdad yesterday, Iraqi officials said.

The explosions – which Iraqi officials said were detonated by mobile phone, suggesting the women may not have been aware of what was happening – killed at least 73 people and wounded more than 160 in the deadliest day since the United States sent 30,000 extra troops to the capital in spring last year.

Scotsman

This has been done before.

It is hard not to imagine that we may well confront something similar in the West in the future. Israel has lived under such circumstances for decades now. The UK had this problem with the IRA and in the 1970s, there were various attacks in Europe. For all I know, the garbage bins in Paris are still sealed.

Suicide bombs and bombs strapped to children or ignorant adults seem particularly heinous.

[DogOnPorch]

They used children to get into the green zone (in a car)...then blew them up (after fleeing themselves). They've also used chlorine gas with limited success.

The women were apparently mentally handicaped. A horrible loss of both human and animal life. A new low for terrorism...

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSYAT173391

---------------------------------------------

"We found the mobiles used to detonate the women," Major-General Qassim Moussawi said, adding the women were mentally handicapped. He did not elaborate on how the Iraqi military knew about their mental condition.

[VIV3LAR3VOLUTION]

Theres a lot of Muslim flaming in this topic, yes they are Muslims, but extremists Muslims.

I personally know devout Muslims and they all condemn terrorism, its against their beliefs.

Do we still condemn Germans for the ll world war?

[DogOnPorch]

Theres a lot of Muslim flaming in this topic, yes they are Muslims, but extremists Muslims.

I personally know devout Muslims and they all condemn terrorism, its against their beliefs.

Judging by the amount of suicide bombings by extremist Muslims, his moderate Mulslim condemnations aren't working.

Do we still condemn Germans for the ll world war?

They still live with a deep national guilt for their nation's actions. Germans condemn themselves. But what has that got to do with terrorism these days?

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That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle.

---Hassan Nasrallah

[M.Dancer]

They still live with a deep national guilt for their nation's actions. Germans condemn themselves. But what has that got to do with terrorism these days?

Not to mention that Germany is no longer about to march through europe.....

[JerrySeinfeld]

Muslims are the 'devil du jour' - just like the Germans and Japanese were 60 years ago or the Russians a mere 20 years ago. In 50 years another 'devil' will take their place.

Humans have a problem because human societies are built on a sense of belonging. Societies cannot function unless the people in the society develop a connections with individuals that they have never met. Creating or exaggerating an external threat perhaps the oldest and (sadly) most effective way to create this social bond. Most leaders use fear of outsiders as a way to coherse a society into adopting their point of view. This so called "War with Muslims' started because many despots in the Islamic world convinced their people that 'America' was to to blame for all of their problems. This created the social climate that has bred suicide bombers. Unfortunately, when 9/11 happened the US was saddled with and extremely unimaginative and weak leader who decided that exaggerating the threat from Muslim extremists suited his purposes. He fabricated a threat from Iraq and after screwing that up he now works to grossy exagerate a threat from Iran.

Unfortunately, the warmongers in the white house have simply re-enforced the anti-American myths in the Muslim world and made the problem worse.

If we think our values are worth preserving then we have to actually live up to them. That means that military force should only be used if there is truely no other alternative.

This is the empitimy of left wing progressivist thinking: if I close my eyes it will all go away and "everything will be ok because it always works itself out". Actually, in reality it rarely has throughout human history. The American moment in history as it were has mercifully been a brief period of prosperity, happiness and freedom preceded by centuries of opression, dictatorship and misery. Many fundamentailst Muslims would have us go back. Lefties speak as if the evils of nazism, communism, slavery, fascism were not defeated by a strong will to prevail, and a WAR, but rather because we all just ignored them for long enough.

This is the kind of thinking that will topple our society: a famous quote: societies don't die from murder - they commit suicide. This complacency is the precise problem and danger we face.

Edited February 4, 2008 by JerrySeinfeld

[Topaz]

One way to protect yourself is not to be there. I still haven't heard a good reason why we should be fighting the Taliban? The reason we went in there was to get OBL, now he's not there so why are we?? I hope the new President of the US will change its way about invading and changing government like Bush has done. I don't like the thought that Canadians have died so the US can setup a large military bases in the Middle-East and become the guy that cracks the whip over those countries.

[bush_cheney2004]

One way to protect yourself is not to be there. I still haven't heard a good reason why we should be fighting the Taliban? The reason we went in there was to get OBL, now he's not there so why are we?? I hope the new President of the US will change its way about invading and changing government like Bush has done.

Your reasons for Canada "invading" Afghanistan are your business, but it doesn't matter diddly to post 9/11 America. The Americans didn't force Canada to be a charter member of NATO.

I don't like the thought that Canadians have died so the US can setup a large military bases in the Middle-East and become the guy that cracks the whip over those countries.

Right....you only like the Canuck oil services contracts!

[DogOnPorch]

One way to protect yourself is not to be there. I still haven't heard a good reason why we should be fighting the Taliban?

Just a refresher for those who forget who the Taliban are...

http://www.rawa.org/zarmeena.htm

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You live by the gun and knife, and die by the gun and knife.

---Joe Valachi

[Army Guy]

What kind of person straps on several bombs and goes into a crowd to self-detonate?

What kind of person commits suicide while intentionally killing others, sometimes famous?

Below is some good reading on why or what kind of person becomes a sucide bomber....2 theories....one is a persons quality of life, 2 and is religous beliefs....

sucide bombers history.

Inside the mind of a bomber

female bombers.

At the start of the movie "The Guns of Navarone", a soldier suggests that one easy way to achieve the object of destroying the guns would be to send in pilots on a suicide mission - unfortunately, the soldier asks, who would volunteer for the mission?

There is never a problem getting someone to volunteer, if the mission is presented as critical to the war effort....such as the guns over navarone....or the intial assualts on D-Day....when soldiers knew the first wave would take extremily heavy cas, on some beaches over 75 % never made it off the beach....

Japanese kamikaze pilots did exactly that. But they died destroying military targets. Is there a difference between a kamikaze and someone who kills innocent civilians? Not really.

I disagree, in total war what is the difference between dying from a well placed 500 lb bomb off a dive bomber or a well placed aircraft laden with fuel and explosives...The difference was the effect it had on moral of the receiving side....it struck fear into allied naval crews because they knew just how determined the enemy was....

And although the allied were willing to risk thier lives during war, they were not prepare to sacrifice oneself for the cause....

Suicide bombers are just another form of warfare and it seems to me that as technology has advanced, the idea of dying while killing as many of the "others" becomes another tactic.

It is a poormans way to wage war or an act of desparation " such as the japanese." so has it become just another mode of war, i'd say it's always been there....hidden just beneath the surface.....hidden by random acts of bravery, or deparation....

The war museum has pictures of victoria cross winners , with discriptions of what we call acts of bravery....but when you read them you could boil it down to acts of deparation....

IE, a canadian pilot during the last days of combat in the pacific threater, has bomded and damaged a japanese destroyer...in the process his corsair is heavily damaged, and is in flames....he decides to crash his aircraft into the destroyer...he knows he is about to die...and decides to end it by taking as many of the enemy as possiable....

I started this thread because I think we face people who are prepared to die and kill as many of us as they can. What motivates such people? What happens if they have access to modern technology? And then, in the face of such people, how do we best defend our Western values?

I think we face a culture that like ours, has it fair share of misguided individuals. And those that are wageing this war are taking full advantage over it....in those links most bombers are in thier 20's....ever gone to a university campus and look how many students get caught up in activists rolls....be it again'st abortion, the war, or animal rights, you name it, it's out there....what if you could take that a another step....convinced them that dying for this cause is a good thing....hey animal activists and abortion rights groups have already killed or done harm in the name of thier cause....all it takes is time and constant indoctrination....and thats here in North america....

Now add to that very poor living conditions, a very bleak future, throw in constant living in a war zone with death and destruction ....some religion, and constantly bombard them with how those others that have been bombers are hero's, throw some cash at the families throw a parade....or give them special status and you've got the makings of a bomber.... once recruited then they are husked away, for more one on one taining and indoctrination and now you have a bomber that "will" press the button....

Israel is the world expert in these matters, shutting themselfs off from the rest of the world....building a huge wall, massive security checks, getting thru Israelis airport security can take as long as 4 hours....they actually phoned my mother in Canada and had her answer questions....and i had a semi diplomatic passport, military ID, and travel documents.....I guess the question should be is what type of security are you willing to live with....and what rights you are willing to give up or have limited.....

Some have said here that we made our selfs a target by going over there....we should have stuck to ourselfs....but fail to reliese they don't care if your Canadian or not, to them we are all the same US or Canadain and they won't stop once the US pulls out of Iraq, or Afgan ....they'll bring the fight to us...

Edited February 5, 2008 by Army Guy