Canada's Air Force ends pilot training as Ottawa’s spending priorities grow more unbalanced

[CdnFox]

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadian-air-force-ends-pilot-training

The Royal Canadian Air Force announced earlier this month that it will retire its fleet of pilot training jets and put the program on hiatus.

Canada’s aspiring pilots will now travel to Texas, Finland and Italy to earn their wings.

So ends a proud tradition of pilot training that during the Second World War saw Canada train more than 130,000 Allied aircrew, earning it the epithet “the aerodrome of democracy” from then U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt.

[CdnFox]

Are you EFFING KIDDING ME?!?

I mean - in a way it makes sense seeing as we really don't have any PLANES anymore and trudeau's putting the breaks on the purchase of new fighters but FOR GOD"S SAKE - now we can't even TRAIN pilots?

I hope those military folk and their families who voted for trudeau are happy, they've done what the germans and every other air force we ever went up against couldn't, destroyed our Air force

[Army Guy]

This is what Canadians want....until they stand up and make this an issue nothing will stop and our military will decline into nothingness...

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

This is what Canadians want....until they stand up and make this an issue nothing will stop and our military will decline into nothingness...

What we need is a good ole fashioned invasion.  Where's the $&#)$#& french when you need them?

[ExFlyer]

9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

This is what Canadians want....until they stand up and make this an issue nothing will stop and our military will decline into nothingness...

I agree.

The RCAF had already contracted out all the pilot training anyway.  So, where they get trained is immaterial.

[cannuck]

28 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I agree.

The RCAF had already contracted out all the pilot training anyway.  So, where they get trained is immaterial.

IIRC all that was contracted out was primary training.   Might even have made sense to weed out the wannabees and incompetents flying toy airplanes instead of polluting the ranks with that process.

What we are seeing now is continuation of the Big Turd's campaign to de-militarize the military and make them into a "peace keeping" entity with the sole task of delivering social engineering goals of Liberalism.

I can so well remember a time (IIRC '69) when "people from Ottawa" came onto our base and interviewed every francophone  NCO - offering them a guaranteed commission if they wanted to "get with the programme" (if you ever wondered why there seems to be a disproportionate number of officers from Quebec - that is where it started).  The goal was to make the armed forces express Big Turd's "just society" - in other words effectively destroy pretty much everything in Canada, leaving us just with his society.   The other thing civvies probably don't realize is that the armed forces and its procurement policies are little different from the rest of Canadian civil services - i.e. how the Feds tap the $$$$ of the rest of Canada to prop up Quebec.   The Little Turd is just following in at least one of his Daddy's footsteps (which Daddy remains to be seen).

Edited March 14 by cannuck

[ExFlyer]

23 minutes ago, cannuck said:

IIRC all that was contracted out was primary training.   Might even have made sense to weed out the wannabees and incompetents flying toy airplanes instead of polluting the ranks with that process.

What we are seeing now is continuation of the Big Turd's campaign to de-militarize the military and make them into a "peace keeping" entity with the sole task of delivering social engineering goals of Liberalism.

I can so well remember a time (IIRC '69) when "people from Ottawa" came onto our base and interviewed every francophone  NCO - offering them a guaranteed commission if they wanted to "get with the programme" (if you ever wondered why there seems to be a disproportionate number of officers from Quebec - that is where it started).  The goal was to make the armed forces express Big Turd's "just society" - in other words effectively destroy pretty much everything in Canada, leaving us just with his society.   The other thing civvies probably don't realize is that the armed forces and its procurement policies are little different from the rest of Canadian civil services - i.e. how the Feds tap the $$$$ of the rest of Canada to prop up Quebec.   The Little Turd is just following in at least one of his Daddy's footsteps (which Daddy remains to be seen).

" smaller fleet of CT-156 Harvard II and CT-155 Hawk aircraft, and although flying
instructors were provided by the RCAF, all other facilities, simulators and training support was
under contract with Bombardier Inc"

https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/318/305/decarlo.pdf

 

The rest of your diatribe is just political whining.

[Moonbox]

I think there are some issues of scale here.  We barely even have an air force, so running a tiny training program with antiquated aircraft for a barely airworthy fleet of ancient CF-18s was probably a waste of money...especially when we're transitioning to the F-35...sometime...eventually...probably.  

[Zeitgeist]

Our federal government can’t handle the most basic federal responsibilities like national defence.  They certainly poke their noses into provincial affairs, nevertheless.

[cannuck]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

The rest of your diatribe is just political whining.

And you don't think what the Liberals have done and are doing to our former national defense ISN'T "political"????????

I wonder who outbribed Bombardier to get the training contracts?

[ExFlyer]

21 minutes ago, cannuck said:

And you don't think what the Liberals have done and are doing to our former national defense ISN'T "political"????????

I wonder who outbribed Bombardier to get the training contracts?

Look, I been around the Military for a long time. The conservatives did a lot of contracting out as well.

You don't think the cons gave bombardier all the CF18 maintenance contracts? Or the primary flying schools in Portage La Prarie??? Or when they got rid of all the military techs working on the SAR aircraft and gave all the maintenance to IMP? Or when they basically fired all the military at Moose Jaw and even gave Snow Bird maintenance to civilians??

Both our governing political parties have equal blame in the state of our military.

[I am Groot]

10 hours ago, cannuck said:

 The other thing civvies probably don't realize is that the armed forces and its procurement policies are little different from the rest of Canadian civil services - i.e. how the Feds tap the $$$$ of the rest of Canada to prop up Quebec.   The Little Turd is just following in at least one of his Daddy's footsteps (which Daddy remains to be seen).

When I was young, my mother worked for an MP. And she told me how so many programs and purchasing decisions were made to disproportionately benefit Quebec. That was so in Mulroney's time, too. It was a big fat bribe to please not separate, and also benefit the PM's home province where he had so many seats (both Trudeau and Mulroney). That continued when Chretien was PM but tailed off a lot when Harper became PM. 

[CdnFox]

Just now, I am Groot said:

When I was young, my mother worked for an MP. And she told me how so many programs and purchasing decisions were made to disproportionately benefit Quebec. That was so in Mulroney's time, too. It was a big fat bribe to please not separate, and also benefit the PM's home province where he had so many seats (both Trudeau and Mulroney). That continued when Chretien was PM but tailed off a lot when Harper became PM. 

It will tend to continue to tail off over time.

In mulroney's day if you had quebec and ontario you had a majority gov't.  THe west really only counted in a tie.

Fast forward 30 years to harper's 2011 victory - he won a majority AND WOULD HAVE DONE SO WITHOUT A  SEAT IN QUEBEC.

Further even with quebec it's very hard to win a majority without very strong support in the west now.   And with the bloc denying a lot of seats to the federal parties quebec has become less and less of the political force it once was. there's less and less value in pandering to them

Not NONE of course but much less.  And april this year we see 4 more seats i the west and one in  ontario thus diluting quebec's power once again.

THere will be less and less value in pandering to quebec every census for the foreseeable future.

[cannuck]

5 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Look, I been around the Military for a long time. The conservatives did a lot of contracting out as well.

You don't think the cons gave bombardier all the CF18 maintenance contracts? Or the primary flying schools in Portage La Prarie??? Or when they got rid of all the military techs working on the SAR aircraft and gave all the maintenance to IMP? Or when they basically fired all the military at Moose Jaw and even gave Snow Bird maintenance to civilians??

Both our governing political parties have equal blame in the state of our military.

Could not agree with you more. 

Edited March 15 by cannuck

[Dougie93]

11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Our federal government can’t handle the most basic federal responsibilities like national defence. 

that is true

but in this case, America is providing 

since the F-35 program dwarfs the separate Canadian training program into irrelevant obsolescence

F-35 delivers American superpower capability to Canada, even if the Canadian government doesn't care

to include all the training & logistics therein

so actually, rather than the usual Canadian diverting of priorities into leftist lunatic nonsense

Canada is being forced to buy combat power, simply by Canada signing the Pentagon's contract

when you consider that F-35 is the NATO theatre thermonuclear counterforce option with B61-12

it will be by far and away the most powerful weapon system in the Canadian inventory

the only thing that Canada could actually threaten the Russians & Chinese with

the F-35 being an inherent first strike capable tactical nuclear weapons delivery system

the F-35's could in fact fly from Western Europe to Moscow

and the Russians would not see them coming nor going

so this is as close to the big leagues as Canada is ever going to get

Sic itur ad astra : thus is the pathway to immortality

[Venandi]

I fear we’ve systemically forgotten previous harsh lessons on the interaction between retention, recruiting and operational tempo. Each factor effects the other two and any trade (or classification) that places a premium on experience and/or has long training times is susceptible to self inflicted chaos if they allow that equation to get out of balance.

IMO, that ship has already sunk and the only thing still functioning is the swimming pool. Mentors are walking out the door faster than recruitment and training systems can produce new ones. As a result, and across the board, readiness and operational tempo is in a spiral dive.

To me, it’s not a question of who neglected what, when they neglected it, or even why. It’s here now and it’s a systemic problem reminiscent of a snake eating its own tail. A vulnerability that needs to be addressed if any pretence of operational tempo is to be retained.

I’m retired and thus removed from the present situation, but when I left the quality of candidates arriving at OTUs was different than in the OCTP intake days, they are older as a result of obtaining a degree, language training and extended OJT periods due to training delays. That’s huge in and of itself BTW.

So, I think that what's being sold as a good idea (be it cost savings or whatever) is actually an act of desperation and the recognition that RCAF pilot production has deteriorated to the point that we are incapable of out training the deficit without a complete loss of operational tempo. In short, there are no trainers left to train others and no mentors left to mentor those out of the training mill.

Essentially it’s aerodynamic lock point at low altitude… lower the nose you crash, raise it and you stall, a situation where the only thing that saves the day is drop-off. It creates vulnerabilities with the supply side of an equation incapable of surviving further tampering, we are relying on other nations now.

And like sole sourcing your energy supplies from potentially hostile trading partners, like it or not it creates a vulnerability. Remember those German delegates at the UN snickering at Trump for suggesting they were now vulnerable as a result?

I think this is that, but at a minimum and regardless of your opinion on the matter, it should be acknowledged as a potential vulnerability. I'll be surprised and delighted if future events prove me wrong.  

I suspect that politicians and the RCAF brass will sell this as a good idea even if they know  it’s an act of desperation. In Career Manager circles, I bet they're praying for layoffs at airlines and the return of those they previously failed to retain.

 They'll call it good supply management, pilots will call it drop off.

 

Edited March 15 by Venandi

[ExFlyer]

10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

that is true

but in this case, America is providing 

since the F-35 program dwarfs the separate Canadian training program into irrelevant obsolescence

F-35 delivers American superpower capability to Canada, even if the Canadian government doesn't care

to include all the training & logistics therein

so actually, rather than the usual Canadian diverting of priorities into leftist lunatic nonsense

Canada is being forced to buy combat power, simply by Canada signing the Pentagon's contract

when you consider that F-35 is the NATO theatre thermonuclear counterforce option with B61-12

it will be by far and away the most powerful weapon system in the Canadian inventory

the only thing that Canada could actually threaten the Russians & Chinese with

the F-35 being an inherent first strike capable tactical nuclear weapons delivery system

the F-35's could in fact fly from Western Europe to Moscow

and the Russians would not see them coming nor going

so this is as close to the big leagues as Canada is ever going to get

Sic itur ad astra : thus is the pathway to immortality

Canada has been supporting the F35 program since 2010.

To set up training and all the facilities, infrastructure  and support for 85 aircraft would be a monumental waste of money....by any party in power

The F35 can fly around the world with in flight refuelling... so your comment about here to Moscow is nonsensical.

[ExFlyer]

55 minutes ago, Venandi said:

I fear we’ve systemically forgotten previous harsh lessons on the interaction between retention, recruiting and operational tempo. .....

 They'll call it good supply management, pilots will call it drop off.

 

I think what most people do not realize is that a fighter pilots career is quite short. Very few 35 year old fighter pilots.

When their fighter pilot careers are over they move over to Hercs, Aurora, SAR or even helicopters.

Training pilots is hugely expensive and by not building training infrastructure, the money saved can (should) be shuffled to other Military needs (not that it will but, it can).

[Venandi]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Training pilots is hugely expensive and by not building training infrastructure, the money saved can (should) be shuffled to other Military needs (not that it will but, it can).

Yes, and that's likely how it will be sold too. 

Then again, relying on foreign countries for essential infrastructure, be it energy,  pharmaceuticals, military training, (or what ever) is a potential vulnerability always worthy of sober reflection.

I wonder how much surge capacity is built into the training contract, how much flexibility there is to absorb the vagaries of RCAF pilot supply and demand, attrition due to airline hiring, retirements, new acquisitions (UAV/UAS for example).... that retention, recruiting, tempo of operations thing I referred to above, it's dogging our heels right now and I fear we're making it worse.

Will our national needs be a priority within a foreign training system? Will off contract training requirements come at a hefty premium that renders anticipated savings moot? 

At best, it's aways tricky to  judge future requirements in any MOC that requires long duration training and significant experience prior to upgrade. IMO, this adds an additional complication to system that would be well served by having less.

Personally, I don't trust the government to fill pot holes in front of my house but I'm rooting for ya. That said, I think the idea that we don't need organic pilot training is destined for the same the box as "we don't need heavy lift helicopters, tanks, shore bombardment, ASW, etc"  

Cheers

 

Edited March 15 by Venandi

[ExFlyer]

11 minutes ago, Venandi said:

Yes, and that's likely how it will be sold too. 

Then again, relying on foreign countries for essential infrastructure, be it energy,  pharmaceuticals, military training, (or what ever) is a potential vulnerability always worthy of sober reflection.

I wonder how much surge capacity is built into the training contract, how much flexibility there is to absorb the vagaries of RCAF pilot supply and demand, attrition due to airline hiring, retirements, new acquisitions (UAV/UAS for example).... that retention, recruiting, tempo of operations thing I referred to above, it's dogging our heels right now and I fear we're making it worse.

Will our national needs be a priority within a foreign training system? Will off contract training requirements come at a hefty premium that renders anticipated savings moot? 

At best, it's always tricky to  judge future requirements in any MOC that requires long duration training and significant experience prior to upgrade. IMO, this adds an additional complication to system that would be well served by having less.

Personally, I don't trust the government to fill pot holes in front of my house but I'm rooting for ya. That said, I think the idea that we don't need organic pilot training is destined for the same the box as "we don't need heavy lift helicopters, tanks, shore bombardment, ASW, etc"  

Cheers

 

We have used foreign countries for our needs for many decades. When we decided to be a user as opposed to a producer, our manufacturing has gone away. Our Military has become a way for governments to give companies money....and not all the companies are Canadian... as long as they had a post office box number in Canada, they could benefit.

As for using foreign Military training, the RCAF has used other countries for training for many decades. We have been using other countries flight simulators fora very long time. Our tech training has been outsourced for equally as long.

I cannot speak to Army or Navy training but I suspect some of their training has also been done in other countries.

Retention and recruitment and operational tempo is  and has been problematic even when I joined 40 odd years ago.

Our Military is in a sad state because we have let it become so. Canadians only once in my tenure card about Military and that was when we started sending coffins home from Afghanistan.

[Aristides]

Where the training is done is less important than who does it. As long as RCAF instructors are doing the more advanced training it doesn't really matter where it is done.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Where the training is done is less important than who does it. As long as RCAF instructors are doing the more advanced training it doesn't really matter where it is done.

The F35 is a single seater so, all formal and "advanced" training is done in simulators.

Whoever does the "training" in the simulators is immaterial.

Tactics, on the other hand, if specifically Canadian, will be classrooms in squadrons.

Edited March 15 by ExFlyer

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

The F35 can fly around the world with in flight refuelling... so your comment about here to Moscow is nonsensical.

it's not a question of In Flight Refuelling

although you cannot tank in Russian airspace during an attack

but the point is rather Stealth

Very Low Observable for Very Late Detection

to penetrate Russian Integrated air and missile defences with impunity

while carrying 2 x B61 in the internal bays, Fully Fused Option ( FUFO ) 0.3 to 340 kilotons variable yield

thus allowing the F-35 to fly the preemptive first strike theatre thermonuclear counterforce mission

which is by far and away the most intimidating capability in the Canadian military inventory, the ultimate deterrent

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

it's not a question of In Flight Refuelling

although you cannot tank in Russian airspace during an attack

but the point is rather Stealth

Very Low Observable for Very Late Detection

to penetrate Russian Integrated air and missile defences with impunity

while carrying 2 x B61 in the internal bays, Fully Fused Option ( FUFO ) 0.3 to 340 kilotons variable yield

thus allowing the F-35 to fly the preemptive first strike theatre thermonuclear counterforce mission

which is by far and away the most intimidating capability in the Canadian military inventory, the ultimate deterrent

Look, shut your cakehole.

Canada has been working with the US in F35 development for decades knowing full well it will replace our F18's.

Canada is not a nuclear country and cannot hold nuclear weapons.

Get your head out of your video games. LOL

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

Look, shut your cakehole.

Canada has been working with the US in F35 development for decades knowing full well it will replace our F18's.

Canada is not a nuclear country and cannot hold nuclear weapons.

Get your head out of your video games. LOL

the RCAF remains at the ready to deliver NATO B61 tactical nuclear bombs stored in Europe

same as it ever was, beginning with the CF-104, through the CF-18