Canada's Air Force ends pilot training as Ottawa’s spending priorities grow more unbalanced

[ExFlyer]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

go ahead and lose your shit over it if you feel the need

/ shrugs

Keep On Keeping On.

You will never shed the label of a loser.

/shrugs    while laughing loser

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

Keep On Keeping On.

cheers

I will

Ducimus

[ExFlyer]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

cheers

I will

Ducimus

tu autem victus

[ExFlyer]

44 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

In ...

Excelsior

Semel iterumque victus es

 

Once again, you are still a loser ...in any language LOL

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Semel iterumque victus es

 

Once again, you are still a loser ...in any language LOL

I none the less feel blessed

by the Man from Galilee

love thine enemies therein

even Reg Fore REMFs

[herbie]

The Arrow was a sad chapter in our history, though again we did fall into buying into the near useless F100 series of interceptors when the USSR didn't even have fleets of bombers to intercept. They couldn't intercept ICBMs and decades later can't outrun missiles. In the long run, cancellation was rhe best decision.

As for the training, it's not 1940 and we're the safe training spot for the whole Commonwealth, and training only a couple hundred pilots to fly US built fighters doesn't warrant the expense of our own school instead of theirs.

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, herbie said:

In the long run, cancellation was rhe best decision.

the Arrow could have been produced as a national vanity project at huge expense

but frankly,  Canada does that all the time, massively overpriced national vanity project is the essence of Canada

so not cancelling the Arrow would not have been worse than what Canada did instead

[ExFlyer]

20 minutes ago, herbie said:

The Arrow was a sad chapter in our history, though again we did fall into buying into the near useless F100 series of interceptors when the USSR didn't even have fleets of bombers to intercept. They couldn't intercept ICBMs and decades later can't outrun missiles. In the long run, cancellation was rhe best decision.

As for the training, it's not 1940 and we're the safe training spot for the whole Commonwealth, and training only a couple hundred pilots to fly US built fighters doesn't warrant the expense of our own school instead of theirs.

We got the CF 100 under licence from North American Aviation (given to AV Roe to build) before the Arrow was designed. It rolled off the line in Toronto in 1950. That was all that was available and since Canada had no jet fighter/interceptor capability, it was what we got.

We no longer train any foreign pilots.

You are very correct, building all the infrastructure for a couple hundred pilots makes no sense, financially or operationally. Using US training is what we need considering we will be using American built aircraft and will, if ever, being in support roles behind them,.

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the Arrow could have been produced as a national vanity project at huge expense

but frankly,  Canada does that all the time, massively overpriced national vanity project is the essence of Canada

so not cancelling the Arrow would not have been worse than what Canada did instead

You have no clue ....again.

The Arrow is more myth than fact. AV Roe was company dying and only Canadian taxpayer money kept it alive.

The most important thing to know is that no one, world wide, was the slightest bit interested in the aircraft so, it was doomed from the get go. Also, it was no all weather capable which is what was needed in Canada.

Even the Iroquois engine, purported to be the most powerful had no interest from any aircraft manufacturer world wide, so it also dies a painful death.

Myth and fantasy, a world you are familiar with,  is all the Arrow was and became.

[Dougie93]

Just now, ExFlyer said:

The Arrow is more myth than fact. AV Roe was company dying and only Canadian taxpayer money kept it alive.e.

but Canadian taxpayer money was massively wasted on other national vanity projects in any case

the Arrow would have been par for the course

and relatively cheap compared to what Canada actually wasted the money on instead

[ExFlyer]

59 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

but Canadian taxpayer money was massively wasted on other national vanity projects in any case

the Arrow would have been par for the course

and relatively cheap compared to what Canada actually wasted the money on instead

Suck it up doofgie.... deflection at it's worst

Another of your myths blown away LOL

[herbie]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

We got the CF 100 under licence from North American Aviation

That was the CF104 Starfighter built under license by Canadair, the CF100 Canuck was an Avro Canada machine.
Not that the Starfighter was totally useless, looked sexy as hell, went like hell, basically and X15 with jet instead of rocket motor. Then they wanted to use supersonic interceptors for ground attack!
Still remember when they let us 15 yr old cadets fondle and crawl around one in Comox. And sonic booms from them during the Abbotsford Air Show in the 1960s...

They got their money's worth out of the CF100s. Served from 1952-1981 in various RCAF, NATO & NORAD roles.

[Dougie93]

5 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Another of your myths blown away LOL

yes, Canada's mythology has been torn down and replaced with anti-Western Marxist Leninism

Canada started by dismantling the military, then the dismantling spread to every aspect of governance

the Post National State is the reality

but I don't even lament it anymore

what's done is done, it is what it is

congratulations on rendering a once proud nation into meaninglessness

not much one can do about it, other than carry on living in the ruins

 

[ExFlyer]

19 hours ago, herbie said:

That was the CF104 Starfighter built under license by Canadair, the CF100 Canuck was an Avro Canada machine.
Not that the Starfighter was totally useless, looked sexy as hell, went like hell, basically and X15 with jet instead of rocket motor. Then they wanted to use supersonic interceptors for ground attack!
Still remember when they let us 15 yr old cadets fondle and crawl around one in Comox. And sonic booms from them during the Abbotsford Air Show in the 1960s...

They got their money's worth out of the CF100s. Served from 1952-1981 in various RCAF, NATO & NORAD roles.

 

You are correct. I apologize.

Comox had CF101 VooDoo's. If there was a 104 there, it was only transiting through.

14 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

yes, Canada's mythology has been torn down and replaced with anti-Western Marxist Leninism

Canada started by dismantling the military, then the dismantling spread to every aspect of governance

the Post National State is the reality

but I don't even lament it anymore

what's done is done, it is what it is

congratulations on rendering a once proud nation into meaninglessness

not much one can do about it, other than carry on living in the ruins

 

Just more political crap form a basement dweller.... LOL

Edited March 17 by ExFlyer

[ExFlyer]

10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

yes, Canada's mythology has been torn down and replaced with anti-Western Marxist Leninism

Canada started by dismantling the military, then the dismantling spread to every aspect of governance

the Post National State is the reality

but I don't even lament it anymore

what's done is done, it is what it is

congratulations on rendering a once proud nation into meaninglessness

not much one can do about it, other than carry on living in the ruins

 

When you lose, as you so often do, you resort to just more nonsensical political crap as is expected from a basement dweller.... LOL

Edited March 17 by ExFlyer

[herbie]

8 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Comox had CF101 VooDoo's. If there was a 104 there, it was only transiting through.

Our Cadet visit was in summer, and that Abbotsford Airshow is held in early August. No doubt that's why.
Saw the Voodoos too, but they were like a car lot of Chevy IIs compared to a StingRay.

At least Dougie spared us a stupid song video along with his usual inane comments.

[BeaverFever]

On 3/16/2024 at 7:05 PM, herbie said:

Not that the Starfighter was totally useless, looked sexy as hell, went like hell, basically and X15 with jet instead of rocket motor

Personally I always thought the Starfighter was ugly. And it was notorious for being hard to fly with a high stall speed that cost a lot of NATO pilots their lives. Not sure why this particular aircraft was used by Canada and some other NATO countries for tactical strike instead of say Voodoo or other, but once upon a time in the days before precision guided munitions, very high speed, very low level attack was a thing. 

[herbie]

Well the RCAF was better at flying them than the Germans were!

Do you remember an album cover if a fireplace with F104s in German markings flying above it and several crashed to pieces on the mantle? Don't remember the band.... (it may have been a National Lampoon art)

[Aristides]

Canada lost their share as well. I knew a couple of people who flew them both in Germany and instructing at Cold Lake. They figured on losing at least one pilot per tour. The problem with the 104 at low level was its small wing, they were pretty much flying a thrust vector and had to be way ahead of the aircraft to avoid terrain. 

[ExFlyer]

7 hours ago, Aristides said:

Canada lost their share as well. I knew a couple of people who flew them both in Germany and instructing at Cold Lake. They figured on losing at least one pilot per tour. The problem with the 104 at low level was its small wing, they were pretty much flying a thrust vector and had to be way ahead of the aircraft to avoid terrain. 

Canada had a total of 200 CF104's and crashed 113 of them. Lost 37 pilots.

Only 4 crashes were mechanical or system failure reasons.

They were nicknamed the WidowMaker.

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Canada had a total of 200 CF104's and crashed 113 of them. Lost 37 pilots.

Only 4 crashes were mechanical or system failure reasons.

They were nicknamed the WidowMaker.

By the press, not its pilots.

One guy I used to fly with who spent 4 years on it in Germany and another four instructing at Cold Lake said the only failure he had in that time was a generator failure. 

Quote

There were 110 class A accidents in the 25 years that Canada operated the CF-104 resulting in 37 pilot fatalities. Most of these were in the early part of the program centring on teething problems. Of the 110 class A accidents, 21 were attributed to foreign object damage (14 of which were bird strikes), 14 were due to in-flight engine failures, six were as a result of faulty maintenance and nine involved mid-air collisions. Thirty-two aircraft struck the ground flying at low level in poor weather conditions. Of the 37 fatalities, four were clearly attributable to systems failures; all of the others were attributable to some form of pilot inattention.^[11]

The accident rate of the CF-104 compares favourably to its predecessor, the F-86 Sabre. In only 12 years of operation the F-86 had 282 class A accidents with a loss of 112 pilots. The Sabre was also a simpler aircraft and was normally flown at higher altitude.^[12]

The CF-104 was nicknamed the "Widowmaker" by the press but not by the pilots and crews of the aircraft. David Bashow states on page 92 of his book "I never heard a pilot call it the Widowmaker". Sam Firth is quoted on page 93 in Bashow's book "I have never heard a single person who flew, maintained, controlled, or guarded that aircraft of any force (and that includes the Luftwaffe) call it the Widowmaker". The pilots did refer to it, in jest, as the "Aluminium Death Tube", "The Lawn Dart" and "The Flying Phallus" but generally called it the 104 (one oh four) or the Starfighter.^[11]

Low level attack runs in the CF-104 were done visually at 100 feet AGL and at speeds up to 600 km. Low level evasive maneuvers could increase speeds to supersonic.^[13]

The aircraft was very difficult to attack owing to its small size, speed, and low altitude capability. Dave Jurkowski, former CF-104 and CF-18 pilot is quoted "Because of our speed, size and lower level operations, no Canadian Zipper driver was ever 'shot down' by either air or ground threats in the three Red Flag Exercises in which we participated."^[14]

 

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

By the press, not its pilots.

One guy I used to fly with who spent 4 years on it in Germany and another four instructing at Cold Lake said the only failure he had in that time was a generator failure. 

 

One dead pilot = one Widow.... no matter who named it.

Lost over half the fleet in it's service with Canada. Worst in service record.

 

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

One dead pilot = one Widow.... no matter who named it.

Lost over half the fleet in it's service with Canada. Worst in service record.

 

Flying 600 kts at 100 feet for 25 years, what would you expect.

[ExFlyer]

9 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Flying 600 kts at 100 feet for 25 years, what would you expect.

Never said it was not dangerous. That is what ground support is all about

I had a friend that was killed doing landing gear retractions in the hangar at 4 Wing. he got caught in the gear doors as they slammed shut. You can spot a 104 techs because many had scars on their foreheads form the razor sharp wing leading edge.

Lots of 104 stories out there.

Edited March 19 by ExFlyer

[Aristides]

18 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Never said it was not dangerous. That is what ground support is all about

I had a friend that was killed doing landing gear retractions in the hangar at 4 Wing. he got caught in the gear doors as they slammed shut. You can spot a 104 techs because many had scars on their foreheads form the razor sharp wing leading edge.

Lots of 104 stories out there.

Gear doors are danger on any aircraft. When we worked on B474 and B707 nose gears we always disconnected the links before sticking our heads in a well. They had quick release pins on the links for that purpose. If someone powered up hydraulics and for some reason they decided to close, they snapped shut like an alligators jaw and would cut you in half. Cycling thrust reversers was another case where you had to watch your extremities. There are all kinds of booby traps. I have plenty of scars on my head from working on old cars and aircraft, that and economy seats are drawbacks of being tall. I thought those wings had protective covers that were supposed to be installed when they were being worked on. It's always tempting to take short cuts.

[ExFlyer]

22 hours ago, Aristides said:

Gear doors are danger on any aircraft. When we worked on B474 and B707 nose gears we always disconnected the links before sticking our heads in a well. They had quick release pins on the links for that purpose. If someone powered up hydraulics and for some reason they decided to close, they snapped shut like an alligators jaw and would cut you in half. Cycling thrust reversers was another case where you had to watch your extremities. There are all kinds of booby traps. I have plenty of scars on my head from working on old cars and aircraft, that and economy seats are drawbacks of being tall. I thought those wings had protective covers that were supposed to be installed when they were being worked on. It's always tempting to take short cuts.

Yeah, lots of dangers working on aircraft. Lots of techs with missing digits and extremities.

The 104 doors snapped shut in a blink of an eye. They had to so the aircraft could fly. It was a missile for all intents and purposes, the wings were only for guidance as opposed to for flight LOL

Yes, they had leading edge covers for the wing but, they were gone when pulling chocks for flight and that was the days before helmets. As you well know, shit happens.

EDIT:

BTW  " The Germans lost 292 of 916 aircraft and 116 pilots from 1961 to 1989, its high accident rate earning it the nickname Witwenmacher ("widowmaker") from the German public."

Edited March 21 by ExFlyer