The progressive diversity cult is killing the Western world

[I am Groot]

Gad Saad kind of echoes the speech Konstantin Kisin made at Arc. It's very much worth watching.

Both take the position that the way the West, particularly the anglosphere is feeding on itself in an orgy of self-loathing is weakening us all against the growing number of ruthless foreign warlords who are taking advantage of it and doing their best to undermine the central, uniting cultural and historical norms, values, and ethos of Western society. It is not beyond the pale to suggest that in fifty years China will be essentially ruling most of the world through proxies if not directly, as the West rots from within.

 

On Oct. 21, I posted a message on my X feed that went viral. It has garnered nearly 11 million views over the past month. I reproduce it here:

“You are not going to like this tweet so turn away if you are likely to be triggered: I am a very optimistic person; I am a fighter for Western values and liberties; I am a dogged defender of science, reason, and common sense. I must say though that I am unsure that the West can recover from its multifront civilizational suicide. Yes, I’ve talked about these issues for decades and wrote a book about it (The Parasitic Mind: How Infectious Ideas Are Killing Common Sense) but the past few weeks have crystallized the extent to which the problem has become intractable. It will be a long and ultimately bloody demise and the West will be the first society in recorded history to fully self-implode due to its parasitic ideological rapture. It is a gargantuan Greek tragedy that will shape the future of humanity. This is not hyperbole. Your grandchildren will pay a very high price for your ‘progressive’ arrogance rooted in the pursuit of Unicornia that only exists in the recesses of deeply flawed parasitized minds.”

Gad Saad: The progressive diversity cult is killing the West | National Post

 

[Michael Hardner]

34 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. weakening us all against the growing number of ruthless foreign warlords who are taking advantage of it and doing their best to undermine the central, uniting cultural and historical norms, values, and ethos of Western society.

2. It is not beyond the pale to suggest that in fifty years China will be essentially ruling most of the world through proxies if not directly, as the West rots from within.

3.  ... the past few weeks have crystallized the extent to which the problem has become intractable. 

4. This is not hyperbole. Your grandchildren will pay a very high price for your ‘progressive’ arrogance rooted in the pursuit of Unicornia that only exists in the recesses of deeply flawed parasitized minds.”

Gad Saad: The progressive diversity cult is killing the West | National Post

 

1. How are 'foreign warlords' taking advantage ?  You mean by sowing division ?  If so, that's at least as much a product of our rights to unencumbered self-expression as social divisions isn't it ?

2. It's a stretch of futurism to try to predict social problems fifty years hence.  Imagine it 1973... anyone predicting half of the social change we see today let alone the political-economic changes would make Nostradamus look like a punter.

3. What happened in the past few weeks ?  The Hamas attacks is the only thing I can think of and we're talking about it - to my mind in pretty open terms.

4. I don't think it's hyperbole to THINK about group-think.  ( I call it by its old name on purpose )  I do think it's hyperbole (and self-serving) to warn that it will be destroying us in 50 years.  It's very hard to predict 50 years down the way as I point out. 

And the alternative is to suppress free discussion on things like race, equality and such which we have NOT done.  We have Balkanized the discussion but as evidenced by this forum there is a vast though unmeasured weight of quiet centrist thought on many of these topics.

I am open to ideas that this person submits, and maybe more than ever too... but I always need evidence and not just anecdotes of some campus extremist's statements.

 

[MikhailinNorthBay]

Agree. Obviously we are destroying our own society.  Attacking our values and destroying our history. 

 

All in the name of hate. 

 

Hatred of ourselves for some odd reason.

[herbie]

Progressive Diversity Cult and other bogeymen of the Wrong Wing fear mongers.

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, herbie said:

Progressive Diversity Cult and other bogeymen of the Wrong Wing fear mongers.

Well, let's be real - there ARE lots of reasons to discuss how we resolve 'east' and 'west'... 

[eyeball]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, let's be real - there ARE lots of reasons to discuss how we resolve 'east' and 'west'... 

I'm pretty sure chuds solved this over a hundred years ago by conflating east and west with left and right and you're not with us/them you're...

See how easy it is? No brain no pain.

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. How are 'foreign warlords' taking advantage ?  You mean by sowing division ?  If so, that's at least as much a product of our rights to unencumbered self-expression as social divisions isn't it ?

Honestly, it should be hard for terrorist leaders to convince people that blowing themselves up to kill some American civilians is the best thing that they can possibly do with their young lives, but all they have to do is play Biden, Clinton, and Obama speeches and hand them a backpack.

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2. It's a stretch of futurism to try to predict social problems fifty years hence.  Imagine it 1973... anyone predicting half of the social change we see today let alone the political-economic changes would make Nostradamus look like a punter.

Not when those problems are already happening. 

Believe it or not there was a time, however brief, when the police could defend their lives from a violent criminal without starting race riots, or congresswomen would keep their pro-terrorism speeches from the public eye. 

We've gotten to the point now where the Dems are using racism to get votes again, and it took a long time to put an end to that the first time.

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3. What happened in the past few weeks ?  The Hamas attacks is the only thing I can think of and we're talking about it - to my mind in pretty open terms.

The past few weeks have shown us that terrorist propaganda is rampant in American universities, and that the DNC isn't above spewing it in public.

That's worth mentioning, don't ya think? 

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4. I don't think it's hyperbole to THINK about group-think.  ( I call it by its old name on purpose )  I do think it's hyperbole (and self-serving) to warn that it will be destroying us in 50 years.  It's very hard to predict 50 years down the way as I point out. 

I don't think it's 50 years out, tbh. 

• Dem hate speech is already at a fever pitch.
• The FBI is out lying and commit crimes as fast as CNN can spin them.
• The Dems have already established a clear pattern of using the FBI to overturn elections, or to criminalize election skepticism depending on who wins.
• The MSM backs the Dems and FBI 100%, no matter how blatantly obvious their lies and crimes are.

The national police, MSM and one crooked political party is all it takes to put an end to actual elections, right? What more do you need? 

Hmmmm, maybe the National Guard?

Yep, apparently they decided that they needed a politically cleansed/awesome version of the National Guard to "protect democracy": 

https://www.businessinsider.com/national-guard-doing-background-checks-to-weed-out-trump-supporters-2021-1?op=1

I feel like democracy is so much safer now that the Dems have their own National Guard to call up.

Quote

And the alternative is to suppress free discussion on things like race, equality and such which we have NOT done. 

We didn't?

Are you saying that our gov't hasn't criminalized telling the truth about certain religions, or using pronouns improperly, while simultaneously churning out their own propaganda that disparages white people, pretends that we're all part of a systemic racist conspiracy against blacks, and teaches kids that whites were the only slavers in history, etc? 

Quote

I am open to ideas that this person submits, and maybe more than ever too... but I always need evidence and not just anecdotes of some campus extremist's statements.

It's pretty bizarre that campuses have riots to prevent intellectuals like Ben Shapiro and Dr Peterson from speaking, because of alleged systemic racism that no one quantify or illuminate, but anti-Semitism and anti-white hate speech is venerated. 

Campuses are even discriminating against people by discrediting their grades from high school based on their race. That's not anecdotal, it's atrocious to completely discard people based on their race, right? Or is that cool again? 

What were you saying about "50 years" again? 

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

See how easy it is? No brain no pain.

Yeah... But the Chuds haven't gone anywhere yet... They do get quiet from time to time...

[I am Groot]

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. How are 'foreign warlords' taking advantage ?  You mean by sowing division ?  If so, that's at least as much a product of our rights to unencumbered self-expression as social divisions isn't it ?

The division is being sown internally but added to and worsened by Russia, China, North Korea, Iran etc. Without the initial divisions they'd be hard-pressed to make much of it. Posting and saying outrageous things gets dismissed except when so many other known people are posting and saying outrageous things.

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. It's a stretch of futurism to try to predict social problems fifty years hence.  Imagine it 1973... anyone predicting half of the social change we see today let alone the political-economic changes would make Nostradamus look like a punter.

We're supposed to believe climate alarmists who tell us the world is going to burn and civilization collapse unless we close down our industries and live in caves. So why not this when we've already got lots of insight into where we are and where we're going? We have academics who are growing fond of using the phrase 'so-called Canada' to dismiss the legitimacy of this country. These aren't the fringe extremists but people employed in our universities to teach young people and who are filling public roles in various climate and activist groups like Greenpeace. We have actual doctors, allegedly highly intelligent proposing that the training of new doctors should be focused not around medical expertise but social justice.

These are the products of an education system which has lost its way and become enamored of ideas which are antithetical to Western cultural values, who dismiss Western cultural values, including the scientific method, who dismiss the legitimacy of western countries. And who indoctrinate young people in similar beliefs. As Abraham Lincoln once said "The culture of the schoolroom in one generation will be the culture of government in the next" 

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. What happened in the past few weeks ?  The Hamas attacks is the only thing I can think of and we're talking about it - to my mind in pretty open terms.

I would suggest that he's referring to us discovering huge numbers of people in our societies no longer subscribe to common values and beliefs. When people can bring themselves to wave away the savages sacking civilized towns, gleefully raping, torturing and slaughtering everyone in sight, and instead bring up social justice complaints it's fair to question if our societies are becoming so divided we no longer have a sense of shared values, identity or beliefs. And how long do such societies last when subjected to stress?

As for open. Please. We're open here because there's no moderator. Other online place are far more prone to censorship, to say nothing of daring to voice an opinion in public that others don't like, as a teacher in New York found out the other day when a social media picture of her at a demo was discovered and students are her woke school rioted, demanding her firing. 

And how open is society on other subjects, like transgenderism, for one example? Where a school board head can shut down and then persecute a teacher for daring to question library books.

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

And the alternative is to suppress free discussion on things like race, equality and such which we have NOT done. 

Oh, of course, we have. It's only just been slowly becoming possible lately. Not long ago voicing any dissension to the groupthink mentality around identity issues could destroy you. Look at the furor and fury directed at the likes of JK Rowling, and then imagine what happens to authors with much less prominence, wealth, and power. And Stockwell Day still hasn't emerged from wherever he was driven off to when he dared to voice an opinion that contradicted the prevailing media insistence that Canada was systemically racist. Did any politician dare to challenge the imported belief that police were gunning down black people left and right due to racism? Nope. And they still haven't. There's huge disagreement about the ever-growing amount of immigrants coming into Canada. Not a single politician in English Canada at any level has dared to call for it to be cut out of fear of being similarly attacked by the progressive media. 

Remember that power lifter who objected to a man calling himself a woman and crushing all the womens records? Banned from the sport she practiced her whole life for 2 years. Cancelled. Erased. Even her exhibit at a freaking museum was erased!

And as Saad remarked, when we've reached the point where government grants are awarded due to diversity points rather than scientific merit, and when people are hired, promoted and fired on the basis of race, religion and identity rather than merit, it's hard to see how we can not continue to become more divided. After all, it's not just the Russians and Chinese doing it. Our own government is, too.

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by I am Groot

[DUI_Offender]

14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. How are 'foreign warlords' taking advantage ?  You mean by sowing division ?  If so, that's at least as much a product of our rights to unencumbered self-expression as social divisions isn't it ?

2. It's a stretch of futurism to try to predict social problems fifty years hence.  Imagine it 1973... anyone predicting half of the social change we see today let alone the political-economic changes would make Nostradamus look like a punter.

3. What happened in the past few weeks ?  The Hamas attacks is the only thing I can think of and we're talking about it - to my mind in pretty open terms.

4. I don't think it's hyperbole to THINK about group-think.  ( I call it by its old name on purpose )  I do think it's hyperbole (and self-serving) to warn that it will be destroying us in 50 years.  It's very hard to predict 50 years down the way as I point out. 

And the alternative is to suppress free discussion on things like race, equality and such which we have NOT done.  We have Balkanized the discussion but as evidenced by this forum there is a vast though unmeasured weight of quiet centrist thought on many of these topics.

I am open to ideas that this person submits, and maybe more than ever too... but I always need evidence and not just anecdotes of some campus extremist's statements.

 

I appreciate you posting here, Michael.

However, JMT's forum is desperately short of Ontario residents. You are invaluable to the JMT forum.

Too many ppl from BC and Alberta....they need diversity over there.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said:

I appreciate you posting here, Michael.

However, JMT's forum is desperately short of Ontario residents. You are invaluable to the JMT forum.

Too many ppl from BC and Alberta....they need diversity over there.

Hmm?  Who are you? DM me...

[Michael Hardner]

11 hours ago, I am Groot said:

1. The division is being sown internally but added to and worsened by Russia, China, North Korea, Iran etc. Without the initial divisions they'd be hard-pressed to make much of it.  

2. We're supposed to believe climate alarmists who tell us the world is going to burn and civilization collapse unless we close down our industries and live in caves. So why not this when we've already got lots of insight into where we are and where we're going?

3. We have academics who are growing fond of using the phrase 'so-called Canada' to dismiss the legitimacy of this country. These aren't the fringe extremists but people employed in our universities to teach young people and who are filling public roles in various climate and activist groups like Greenpeace. We have actual doctors, allegedly highly intelligent proposing that the training of new doctors should be focused not around medical expertise but social justice.

4. These are the products of an education system which has lost its way and become enamored of ideas which are antithetical to Western cultural values, who dismiss Western cultural values, including the scientific method, who dismiss the legitimacy of western countries. And who indoctrinate young people in similar beliefs. As Abraham Lincoln once said "The culture of the schoolroom in one generation will be the culture of government in the next" 

5. I would suggest that he's referring to us discovering huge numbers of people in our societies no longer subscribe to common values and beliefs. When people can bring themselves to wave away the savages sacking civilized towns, gleefully raping, torturing and slaughtering everyone in sight, and instead bring up social justice complaints it's fair to question if our societies are becoming so divided we no longer have a sense of shared values, identity or beliefs. And how long do such societies last when subjected to stress?

6. As for open. Please. We're open here because there's no moderator. Other online place are far more prone to censorship, to say nothing of daring to voice an opinion in public that others don't like, as a teacher in New York found out the other day when a social media picture of her at a demo was discovered and students are her woke school rioted, demanding her firing. 

And how open is society on other subjects, like transgenderism, for one example? Where a school board head can shut down and then persecute a teacher for daring to question library books.

7. Oh, of course, we have. It's only just been slowly becoming possible lately. Not long ago voicing any dissension to the groupthink mentality around identity issues could destroy you. Look at the furor and fury directed at the likes of JK Rowling, and then imagine what happens to authors with much less prominence, wealth, and power. And Stockwell Day still hasn't emerged from wherever he was driven off to when he dared to voice an opinion that contradicted the prevailing media insistence that Canada was systemically racist. Did any politician dare to challenge the imported belief that police were gunning down black people left and right due to racism? Nope. And they still haven't.

8. There's huge disagreement about the ever-growing amount of immigrants coming into Canada. Not a single politician in English Canada at any level has dared to call for it to be cut out of fear of being similarly attacked by the progressive media. 

9. Remember that power lifter who objected to a man calling himself a woman and crushing all the womens records? Banned from the sport she practiced her whole life for 2 years. Cancelled. Erased. Even her exhibit at a freaking museum was erased!

10. And as Saad remarked, when we've reached the point where government grants are awarded due to diversity points rather than scientific merit, and when people are hired, promoted and fired on the basis of race, religion and identity rather than merit, it's hard to see how we can not continue to become more divided. After all, it's not just the Russians and Chinese doing it. Our own government is, too.

 

1. Ok
2. We should NOT believe climate alarmists, but both climate science and climate denial make it hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Climate change is happening, it's a risk, and since humans are causing it we should look at a solution.  That's the middle and common ground.  "We will all be under water in ten years" is alarmism and should not be printed by MSM.  It is, though, because if it bleeds it leads.  I think the same principle of hysterical media coverage drives the "our culture is dying" narrative.
3. Yes, and luckily we have people like you to oppose those ideas that you think are ridiculous.  The Public Sphere needs to remain healthy.
4. See #3.  To add: If the Public was more focused on outcomes such as providing value in healthcare then we would be better off.  Aligning public services to the actual needs of the public seems to be something people find foreign today.
5. Ok, so you also think he's talking about Israel.  The thing that's most interesting to me is that the more crises that hit us, the more the left-right divide on the response is fractured.  LOTS of right wing people seem to want to stay away from the Israel situation, and the general population seems to be disinterested in supporting them.  Personally, for information I read posts on Facebook from (and talk in person to) my Jewish friends in Israel, Canada and the USA who represent thoughtful points on all sides of the discussion.
6. I see all the things discussed here posted on Facebook and X so this place isn't an online island or anything.  As for Transgener issues, it's been discussed to death elsewhere on here.  I certainly see people posting lots of anti-Trans things online and anti-LGBTQ in general.
7. Being shouted down and/or disagreed with isn't the same as the government jailing you or disallowing you to post an opinion.  The former is pretty rare here, when compared to the foreign agents you mentioned who are sowing dischord here.  That's why I say the answer would be "supression" of rights of expression, which is to say by force, and nothing less.  And certainly we still hold on to values of a liberal society, as evidenced by the dischord itself, so we won't be doing that...
8. Well, I'm sure YOU think that's why it's happening.  I'm not sure it is.  Harper for sure would have cut immigration if he were around today IMO.
9. Ok, but the point of the post is not whether Sporting Bodies are making wise rulings, it's whether the diversity cult is killing the western world.  What do we mean by the 'western world' - presumably liberal traditions like free expressions and enterprise.  She is expressing dissatisfaction, getting coverage, generating discussion and (I just looked this up) got the president of the sports body to resign.  Such wouldn't happen in China, Iran, Russia...
10. You express yourself well, but your posts are difficult to reply to - leaving apart your penchant for personally attacking people.  They're long and mix analysis with emotionality.  Anyway I don't have time to research your broad accusation that social matters "rather than" merit drive funding.  It would be pretty difficult to prove that on the aggregate and anecdotes like a single power lifter wouldn't do it.

Thanks for the discussion - I didn't have time to edit it so sorry for any weak bits...

Edited November 28, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[Michael Hardner]

And as a measure of thanks, I will dip into the content of the discussion that you care so very much about... 

The apparently devastating impact of Trans athletes on our culture ?

I agree that the weightlifter shouldn't be banned and a discussion needs to be had.

[Queenmandy85]

14 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And as Saad remarked, when we've reached the point where government grants are awarded due to diversity points rather than scientific merit, and when people are hired, promoted and fired on the basis of race, religion and identity rather than merit, it's hard to see how we can not continue to become more divided

I have to disagree. Ask your self what is the purpose of a bakery? It is not to bake bread. It is to make money.

What is the purpose of an insurance company? It is not to provide financial protection. It is to make money. And so on.

Now ask what is the purpose of government policy such as grants? It is not to pronmote diversity of social justice. It is to obtain support in the next election. The whole purpose of a democratic government is to give voters what they want in exchange for re-election.

As for schools, if you believe students are influenced by teachers, you are naive and clearly do not recall what it was like as a student. ? The only students I remember holding a teacher in anything but contempt were the class sucks. Teachers are poorly informed. My grade four teacher had a picture of Abraham Lincoln in the class room and she said he was the greatest President we ever had. Even I knew he was an American. My grade 12 physicts teacher told us there were half a dozen dear Russian cosmonaughts orbiting the earth. Even I knew that was wrong and I was a mediocre student at best. I could go on. My point is teaching is a hard job, but teachers have been failed by the education system just like the rest of us.

[Michael Hardner]

27 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

1. Now ask what is the purpose of government policy such as grants? It is not to pronmote diversity of social justice. It is to obtain support in the next election. The whole purpose of a democratic government is to give voters what they want in exchange for re-election.

2. As for schools, if you believe students are influenced by teachers, you are naive and clearly do not recall what it was like as a student. 

3. Even I knew that was wrong and I was a mediocre student at best. I could go on. My point is teaching is a hard job, but teachers have been failed by the education system just like the rest of us.

1. Interesting, but cynical.  What if the voters want something that isn't good for the country ?  Why do politicians go against the popular will sometimes ?
2. Well they must be to a certain extent.  I think that it's understandable for parents to not trust teachers, however rebuilding the trust is the goal - even if we institute policies that accept that mistrust occurs.  We don't want to legislate relationships too much, right ?
3. We had a teacher who taught that bigfoot was real.  Another one said that the government had a cure for cancer they were holding back.  Chud teachers are a thing, people.

[Queenmandy85]

The cause of the fall of most civilizations is a sudden change in climate, although the Bronze Age is open for debate. For the first time in human history, our civilization is global. It includes Asia, Europe the Americas and Africa.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The cause of the fall of most civilizations is a sudden change in climate, although the Bronze Age is open for debate. 

I think you'll find the theory on the whole is open for debate but ok...

[blackbird]

29 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The cause of the fall of most civilizations is a sudden change in climate,

Did you know that Genesis ch1-3 in the King James Bible gives the real cause of the fall of mankind.

Here is a fairly complete article on it:

quote

The fall of man occurred sometime after God created the world and after Satan’s rebellion in heaven. We find the biblical account of creation and the fall of man in Genesis 1–3. According to the book of Genesis, God spoke everything into existence: sky, planets, seas, vegetation, animals, and everything else. He pronounced it all “good” (Genesis 1:25).

But when God made man, He got down in the dirt and formed the shape of a human body from the clay (Genesis 2:7). Then He breathed His own life into the man’s nostrils, and “man became a living soul.” He called the man “Adam.” The man had a life that differed from the plant and animal life. He had been created in God’s own image (Genesis 1:27), which means that he possessed an everlasting spirit, such as God has. He was designed to be like God, fellowship with God, reason like God, and enjoy God forever. So God placed Adam in a garden designed specifically for him (Genesis 2:8). In these perfect surroundings, God walked and talked with the man, enjoying the creation He had made and Adam’s pleasure in it (Genesis 2:19–20; 3:8).

Because God did not want the man to be alone, He fashioned a woman, Eve, from one of Adam’s ribs. He gave them everything in the garden to enjoy except for the fruit from one tree (Genesis 2:16–17). God told them that, if they ate fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would die.

Genesis 3 introduces us to another being involved in the fall of man: the serpent. Satan had already been cast down to earth due to his rebellion against God in heaven (Luke 10:18). Satan came to Eve as a serpent and suggested to the woman that God had not really forbidden the fruit for her good but was rather keeping good from her (Genesis 3:1–4). So she ate it and gave some to Adam (Genesis 3:5). Adam also ate it, and in that moment everything changed. Sin had entered into God’s perfect world (Romans 5:12). Mankind had fallen.

The fall of man was caused by Adam’s sin. Sin is any human behavior, word, or thought that is contrary to the perfection of God. Because of Adam’s sin, God placed a curse upon the world, the people, the animals, the plants, and the very ground (Genesis 3:14–19). Their sin had brought upon them the judgment of God, and the only just punishment for such high treason is eternal death (Romans 6:23). But God then put into play a system by which human beings could find pardon for sin. God killed an animal and made garments for the man and woman to cover the nakedness that now brought them shame (Genesis 3:21). In doing so, God painted a picture of what He would do thousands of years later when the Perfect Lamb was slain to take away our sin (John 1:29; Revelation 13:8).

After the fall of man, God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden and placed a cherub to guard the entrance. This was so that Adam and Eve could not return and possibly eat from the tree of life and live forever in their cursed state (Genesis 3:23–24). They were forced to find their own food and shelter. Adam had to fight weeds and thistles to eke out an existence from the ground, while Eve had to suffer in childbirth. Suffering and toil are part of the curse God put upon this world because of sin.

We call this episode in human history the fall of man because, in that act of disobedience, Adam brought a curse upon every person yet to be born. The man who was designed to walk with God in unbroken fellowship had fallen from that exalted position. He was doomed to live in a broken state, in a broken world, apart from ongoing communion with a holy God. God promised that the Seed of the woman would one day save them from the eternal consequences of their sin (Genesis 3:15), but the temporary earthly consequences of sin remained.

We all suffer the consequences of the fall of man. Our salvation is in calling upon the name of the Lord and trusting in Jesus’ perfect sacrifice for our sin (Romans 5:10–11; 2 Corinthians 5:18). The world groans under the curse, crying out for the relief that will come at the ultimate redemption of God’s people when Christ returns (Romans 8:22–23). When Jesus comes for all those who have trusted in Him, God will restore all things (Acts 3:21). He will create a new heaven and a new earth to replace that which sin destroyed (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:12–13; Revelation 21:1). Mankind will no longer be “fallen” but restored and redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God (Revelation 7:14).    unquote

What truly happened at the fall of man? | GotQuestions.org

So we can take a couple basic facts from this:

1.  Man in an act of disobedience brought a curse upon every person yet to be born.

2.  The rebellion of Lucifer (who became Satan) in heaven and his being kicked out of heaven along with one third of the angels was the beginning of his influence on mankiind.

3.  God's plan to counter this was the sending of His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on a cross and shed his blood for the sins of mankind.  This being demonstrated in the gospels as the way of redemption and salvation for lost sinners.

4.  "13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. "  Matthew 7:13, 14 KJV

Edited November 28, 2023 by blackbird

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Chud

Guess this is the enemy of mankind in your mind.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Guess this is the enemy of mankind in your mind.

More like something that Democracy has to contend with...

[Queenmandy85]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Did you know that Genesis ch1-3 in the King James Bible gives the real cause of the fall of mankind.

I was not referring to the fall of women and men.I was referring to the fall of civilizations such as the Mediterranean empires including Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome were brought down at least twice due to volcanic events that disrupted the climate. If/ when our current global civilization falls, it will be due to either a sudden change in climate or the exhaustion of the fundemental resources on which our civilization depends (coal iron and petroleum.)

Contrary to the myth that civilizations are brought down by immorality, some of the greatest leaps forward occurred during periods of hedonism. The Resoration period comes to mind.

"After all it's not that awful. You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly." (Orson Welles as Harry Lyme in the great film The Third Man.)

Edited November 28, 2023 by Queenmandy85

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

ontrary to the myth that civilizations are brought down by immorality

You are straying from the truth.  It would be pointless for me to try dissect every detail you raised because I'm sure you would find a counter argument.  An artist producing a work of art such as Michelangelo does not negate the horrors of warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed you mentioned.  

Similarly, the good things that Canada may have contributed to the world do not negate the negative things that happened to millions of people in Canada.  There are countless problems that millions of people have had or are experiencing.  None of this would have happened if mankind had not rebelled against God in the first place.

[Queenmandy85]

During the Restoration, the rules of morality were pretty weak, yet that was the period that gave us the great advances in science, particularly in mathematics and physics.

[Moonbox]

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

The division is being sown internally but added to and worsened by Russia, China, North Korea, Iran etc. Without the initial divisions they'd be hard-pressed to make much of it.

What I always find tragic is how you don't see that you're part of the problem. Russia/China etc have nothing to exploit without over-emotional responses like you provide here:

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We're supposed to believe climate alarmists who tell us the world is going to burn and civilization collapse unless we close down our industries and live in caves.

How can you complain about division, when you've fully bought-in to the us-vs-them mentality, pushing absurd hyperbole like the quote above?  

Whose mind do you think you're changing?  Every time you toss out lazy slogans like "woke" or "climate alarmists" etc, you're advertising your emotionality and that you're not worth taking seriously.  While you lament the decline of western values, many of the things you're railing against are quintessentially western values in he first place - things like humanism, secularism, the scientific method, equality and *gasp* progress.

Any of the topics you brought up in your rant can reasonably discussed (and believe it or not we probably have a lot of common ground).  Western values, however, are far more broad and nuanced than you would have us believe, and not merely confined to the ideas that you like.  ?

Edited November 28, 2023 by Moonbox

[herbie]

42 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

How can you complain about division, when you've fully bought-in to the us-vs-them mentality, pushing absurd hyperbole like the quote above?

because it's the trooth... don't you believe in alternate truths? Like mixing bleach and ammonia makes pudding? That he who shouts the loudest is the winner? That repeating a lie often enough makes it the truth? That the headline IS the story? That if you don't "like" something it can't be true? Like 3% of scientists didn't agree 25 years ago it must be total bullshit?