Hamas Attacks Israel

[BeaverFever]

On 1/15/2024 at 4:02 PM, Moonbox said:

For someone who's not trying to peddle conspiracy theories, you can't seem to help yourself.  This one isn't even any good. Netanyahu's carefully crafted image of being the man for security cannot survive this, and it's crazy to think that he believed it could.  The Oct 7th attacks and the former Netanyahu brand cannot exist in the same reality.  "Oopsy we let the grass get too long, and Hamas went further than we'd hoped" is a ridiculous argument. 

Israel’s “mowing the grass” policy is not a conspiracy it’s their policy. Of course Netanyahu is not going to admit to any blunder he’s going to blame it all on Hamas and claim prior to Oct 7 they did what they could. Just like Bush on 9-11, Republicans were the party on watch, the party who based their brand on security and defence, and they maintained that brand after 9-11, started an unnecessary war in Iraq and then profited big time in the 2004 and even later elections in congress and states.
 Netanyahu just confirmed that again there will never be a Palestinian state he said. So then either you keep mowing the grass with further occupation or you commitng a war crime/ genocide by depopulating the Palestinian Territories.  there are only those 3 options and he has ruled out the only peaceful one. Only the Israeli people will decide if his failure to properly mow the grass is excusable. We will see. 

 

On 1/15/2024 at 4:02 PM, Moonbox said:

You drew the comparison, by drawing parallels between the Gazan/Hamas and Israeli political decision making processes.  It was a lousy comparison, and we didn't need a "contest" to sort it out. 

They’re playing the same game, neither interested in peace both wanting maximalist outcomes that only ensure more conflict that’s all that matters   One is a criminal the other is a dirty cop which means they’re both criminals that’s the comparison. It doesn’t matter that the dirty cop isn’t a criminal as often as the other guy that’s what you don’t get.
 

On 1/15/2024 at 4:02 PM, Moonbox said:

When "Death to Israel" is already the base case, and the Gazans already facilitate, support and cheer for attacks like  Oct 7th, what do you figure is happening here?  Are they going from "hating Israel" to "really REALLY hating Israel?"

More October 7 attacks, or worse, expansion to a wider conflict, it can get worse. The reason why everyone is reacting to October 7 is because it’s NOT normal, it’s an escalation. Support for Hamas was low before Oct 7. Israel’s response has ensured it would be high for the foreseeable future. 
 

On 1/15/2024 at 4:02 PM, Moonbox said:

Dead Hamas members will find it harder to attack Israeli cities, as will ones pushed away from Israeli borders and denied support, weapons and infrastructure.  

You really believe once the existing Hamas members are dead there will he no more terrorism?  Do you also believe that once all the existing criminals are dead there will be no more crime?  Terrorism, like crime, is the result of broader conditions not the cause of them. For every Hs terrorist Israel is killing tjey are creating thousands of future terrorists and terrorist supporters with their brutality. They’re killing women and children by the thousands, last count I saw which was probably a couple of weeks ago was 14,000 women and children out of 20,000. So some fraction of the 6,000 males are Hamas. That’s not efficient or proportional , even if there was a valid security justification which there is not for the reasons aI describe above.

 

On 1/15/2024 at 4:02 PM, Moonbox said:

Israeli intransigence is cynical but realistic.  It's absurd to imagine a good-faith peace process with a group that calls for your extermination.  The Oslo Peace process wasn't nearly as close as you make it out to be, and it went on years after Rabin was assassinated.  It was probably the best chance we've seen, however, and anything we've seen since has been delusional (like Obama's, or the Arab Peace Initiative).  

BS. Warring countries always make peace with each other eventually. Israel is at peace with Germany, you might have heard something about Germany calling for  extermination. The hardliners on both sides want more more war amd they benefit politically when ears happen. There are people on both sides who want peace and support for peace among Israelis and Palestinian was at 65% before Rabin’s assassination.   The peace process has been delusional since because Netanyahu and Likud and other hardliners have been in charge practically ever since with a couple of exceptions. 

[sharkman]

450 miles of tunnels.  Four hundred.  And fifty miles.  That is not a people interested in peace with Israel.  Whomever it was that made those tunnels wants something other than peace.

The news media is plastered with propaganda regarding this conflict.  Completely plastered.  That means, most of what you are posting in this thread is propaganda.  The 450 miles is too.  But who started this particular conflict?  Did the Israeli army go around and slaughter its own people?  No it did not.  
Israel was willing to live in relative peace.  The other side was not.  If you can’t see something this plain, it’s because you are blinded by propaganda.  I suggest you stop consuming all news feeds for 3 weeks and let yourself adjust to a new normal.

It May give you a new perspective when you start reading the propaganda again.

[CdnFox]

14 minutes ago, sharkman said:

450 miles of tunnels.  Four hundred.  And fifty miles.

In a territory that's only about 25 miles long.  Which is fairly impressive.

[eyeball]

17 minutes ago, sharkman said:

Israel was willing to live in relative peace.

Then why do they continue to kill Palestinians in the ongoing process of colonizing occupied Palestinian territory?

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Then why do they continue to kill Palestinians in the ongoing process of colonizing occupied Palestinian territory?

I suspect because a) the palestinians were doing something at the time that was probably not something they should have been doing,  b) Palestine decided to embrace a terrorist org bent on isreael's destruction full of lunatics who want to kill and bomb israel and kill it's women and children and who constantly attack israel with terrorist and rocket attacks.

I'm guessing tho.    

[BeaverFever]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

THat is not remotely true.

Vietnam.

The gulf war 2.

quebec in ww 1 and 2.

a bunch of other examples - when a war is unpopular at home the people NEVER rally around it. 

No, it isn't. Every single american wanted to go hurt bin laden and everyone sheltering him. That was not a war the people were against.

His war on iraq was MUCH less popular and many spoke out against it.

History shows you're not correct.  The most you can say is sometimes the 'bad guy' can suppress the public from speaking out.

 

Probably not. They'd be screaming at them to make peace. And even if they did support fighting back they woudln't be happy with trudeau.

 

Look - lets keep this simple. IF they support the actions of hamas for ANY reason, and they do, then they deserve to face the consequences. They deserve it. They should pay for what they support.  THere's no getting around it.

What is happening to them right now is what they've got coming and if they want it to end they should surrender and let hamas face the music for what they've done

Until then they get this. They deserve no less. Why on earth would they?

Sorry your examples are not correct in that warss always popular AT FIRST and popularity wanes as tue war drags on. Specifically your memory of W’s Iraq invasion of 2003 is incredibly incorrect. 

It VERY Popular and Bush and Republicans won in a landslide in 2004 because of ot. Only the left wing of the Democrat party was vocally opposed and they weee labelled traitors and terrorist lovers for it. The moderate Dems simply looked at their shoes and tried to neither support nor condemn for fear of alienating voters. Do you not remember Michael Moore being booed at the Oscars for his Fahrenheit 911 movie?  In fact if memory serves last time I mentioned that event to you, it was because you were trying to claim that the Iraq invasion was broad bi-partisan support and was non-controversial, which has been the standard Republican revisionist claim on that Republican epically criminal blunder  

Furthermore regardless of Quebec, support for participation in world wars was immensely popular in the rest of Canada. Even so, Quebecker’s views were particular to their resentment of English dominance of politics and the military, and specifically opposition to conscription that would place rench Canadian under Anglo control, not because they were anti-war. In fact the Quebec volunteer rate in ww2 was 57%, higher than the 38% in the US. 
 

As for Vietnam, we see the same pattern: support and rallying around the flag at first followed by increasing opposition only after the conflict continues:

 

The Gallup News Service began asking the American public whether it was a "mistake to send troops to Vietnam" in August 1965. At the time less than a quarter of Americans polled, 24%, believed it was a mistake to send troops to Vietnam while 60% of Americans polled believed the opposite. Three years later, in September 1968, 54% of Americans polled believed it was a mistake to send troops to Vietnam while 37% believed it was not a mistake.^[96]

A 1965 Gallup Poll asked the question, "Have you ever felt the urge to organize or join a public demonstration about something?"^[97]Positive responses were quite low; not many people wanted to protest anything, and those who did want to show a public demonstration often wanted to demonstrate in support of the Vietnam War. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=By 1967%2C according to Gallup,Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara.
 

And Desert Storm, Panama, Grenada, Falklands, the various air campaigns against former Yugoslavia and Iraq during the 90s were all very popular conflicts from start to finish   
 

You might have heard of a movie called “Wag the Dog” specifically about a President who fakes a war to gin up public support -something Bill Clinton was accused of doing with his Kosovo campaign and other airstrikes. 
 

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Probably not. They'd be screaming at them to make peace. And even if they did support fighting back they woudln't be happy with trudeau.

Make peace with ISIS?? Are you for real???  Canadians don’t even support making peace with ISIS now in Iraq much less if they wee setting up a caliphate here in Canada killing Canadians   I never said they’d “be happy” with Trudeau but they’d support him over ISIS. 
 

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Look - lets keep this simple. IF they support the actions of hamas for ANY reason, and they do, then they deserve to face the consequences. They deserve it. They should pay for what they support.  THere's no getting around it

…..

1) What you describe is explicitly listed in Geneva Conventions as a war crime called “Collective Punishment” Theres no getting around it. I’ve said this many times in this thread already  

2). If you agree with those principles then why don’t you belong Israelis “deserve to face the consequences” for the suffering and oppression that Israeli governments have opposed on Palestinians for decades?  

 

Declarations of which ethnic group “deserves” what treatment or mistreatment are subjective and arbitrary and have basis in any type of legal system. What do the  Israeli government or the Israeli people “deserve” for their decades of mistreatment and day-to-day oppression of Palestinians that has also killed people not just in conflict but in arbitrary theft and denial of essential services? What about settler militants in the occupied territories who terrorize Palestinians with taxot or implicit support from the Israeli military?  You claim you have principles but you don’t, you have a favourite side, and you cite whatever principles are convenient in the moment to benefit your favoured side. Thing is, most people who think that way aren’t even capable of admitting it to themselves. 

[BeaverFever]

And just so we’re clear Netanyahu has REJECTED any 2-state solution amd his own “from the River to the Sea” announcement 

 

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Sorry your examples are not correct in that warss always popular AT FIRST and popularity wanes as tue war drags on

Vietnam was unpopular mintue 1 and remained so till the end, and saw mass protesting and even riots back home. Quebec hated both ww's from the get go.  Etc etc.

I'm sorry but you're just wrong, you're making things up to try to defend the gazan's support of the hamas action but it's just not terribly defensible.

Quote

It VERY Popular and Bush and Republicans won in a landslide in 2004 because of ot.

Nope

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq

The rest of your stuff is just as easily thrown in the garbage and disproven.

"MAKE PEACE WITH ISIS"?!?!?!!?   Yeah - your fake war that never happened is getting more and more fake as you try to spin it to suit your narrative.  Historically we've seen again and again the public rises up and pressures the gov't to stop a war if it's not popular.  Poland in ww2. etc etc.

Quote

What you describe is explicitly listed in Geneva Conventions as a war crime called “Collective Punishment”

Nope. IF bad guys are using them as meat shields, fair targets.

If they surrender and the israelis keep bombing them THEN that  might apply but that's not the case.

17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

If you agree with those principles then why don’t you belong Israelis “deserve to face the consequences” for the suffering and oppression that Israeli governments have opposed on Palestinians for decades?  

I don't particularly believe theres been much 'oppresion'. I'm not an expert in taht particular field but everything i've seen and read suggests that palestine provokes and had every chance to make peace in the world and chose otherwise.  I believe that given a chance the israelis would be happy to let the palestinians live in peace but that is not something that the palestinians want.

Some times we deserve our struggles.

Maybe after this they'll decide that peace is better, kick out hamas and the militants, and actually come to the table looking for peace. If not - they deserve what comes next and that's their choice.

There is no excuse for the dec 6 attack. None.

There is no reason in the universe any sovereign nation should allow a country that would start a war without warning, deliberately target it's civilians and burn the children and nail the vaginas of their women to continue to exist.

If gaza wishes to survive - surrender.  otherwise they keep getting pounded till there's nothing left.

 

[athos]

Judaism is a religious category, therefore there is no Jewish gene. Today more than 90% of Jews are not Semites (this can be easily confirmed by DNA tests). Most of today's Jews are Ashkenazi (Hazari). On the other hand, Arabs including Palestinians are Semites.

Question:

Is it anti-Semitism when you say something against non-Semites or when you kill Semites?

😀

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, athos said:

Judaism is a religious category, therefore there is no Jewish gene. Today more than 90% of Jews are not Semites (this can be easily confirmed by DNA tests). Most of today's Jews are Ashkenazi (Hazari). On the other hand, Arabs including Palestinians are Semites.

Question:

Is it anti-Semitism when you say something against non-Semites or when you kill Semites?

😀

Bingo!

Isreal is full of East Europeans who practice Judaism. But there's hardly any Semitic liniage in them.

The Ashkenazi have been turfed from one region to another and their greed is always what gets them turfed. 

Be that as it is...Isreal exists. These Russian Jews have every right to defend their existence. 

[Moonbox]

On 1/19/2024 at 1:43 AM, BeaverFever said:

 Netanyahu just confirmed that again there will never be a Palestinian state he said. So then either you keep mowing the grass with further occupation or you commitng a war crime/ genocide by depopulating the Palestinian Territories.  there are only those 3 options and he has ruled out the only peaceful one. Only the Israeli people will decide if his failure to properly mow the grass is excusable. We will see. 

Natanyahu basically said "From the River to the Sea" himself, so now he's not only fantastically unpopular at home, but Israel's allies are done with him as well.  His government isn't going to survive, and even if it defies probability and does, it will have to bow to Western pressure when applied.  These are the sorts of checks and balances that exist in Israel, but do not in Gaza/Palestine, where the crazies do what they please.   

On 1/19/2024 at 1:43 AM, BeaverFever said:

They’re playing the same game, neither interested in peace both wanting maximalist outcomes that only ensure more conflict that’s all that matters   One is a criminal the other is a dirty cop which means they’re both criminals that’s the comparison. It doesn’t matter that the dirty cop isn’t a criminal as often as the other guy that’s what you don’t get.

This is absolute nonsense.  A serial rapist/murderer isn't the same as a bootlegger, so this is a pretty goofy analogy.  

Comparing Israeli to Gazan leadership, only one of them deliberately goes out of its way to get its own people killed.  Somehow that's not registering for you.  😑

On 1/19/2024 at 1:43 AM, BeaverFever said:

Terrorism, like crime, is the result of broader conditions not the cause of them. For every Hs terrorist Israel is killing tjey are creating thousands of future terrorists and terrorist supporters with their brutality.

"Broader conditions" is a meaningless platitude, and your view of the Palestinians is infantilizing.  You imply/suggest that all of their bad choices over the years (particularly Oct 7th) have been causally determined by Israel's actions, but never the other way around.  That's crap.  

On 1/19/2024 at 1:43 AM, BeaverFever said:

BS. Warring countries always make peace with each other eventually. Israel is at peace with Germany, you might have heard something about Germany calling for  extermination.

Germany didn't really make peace with anyone though, did they?  They let the worst crazies take control,  then they got pounded into dust and lost most of their military-aged male population.  They spent the next 50 years under military occupation.  Miraculously, the next generation didn't grow up to be terrorists and they somehow learned that living by the sword means dying by the sword, and that there was a better way.  

 

[CdnFox]

On 1/18/2024 at 10:43 PM, BeaverFever said:

BS. Warring countries always make peace with each other eventually. Israel is at peace with Germany, you might have heard something about Germany calling for  extermination.

You mean they are defeated and surrender.  Germany didn't "Make peace". they surrendered unconditionally after like a million of their citizens had been killed and their military shattered.  Then there was peace.

Same with Japan - they didn't "make" peace, they surrendered after getting blown away.

Same with iraq, afghanistan,  most wars in fact. If they DON"t end that way- they tend to just take a break and start up again later. Peace comes when one side is utterly defeated.

 

Why would this be different? Israel should utterly defeat them no matter how many civvies that takes until they surrender and THEN we can talk peace.

[BeaverFever]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:36 PM, CdnFox said:

Germany didn't "Make peace". they surrendered unconditionally

Germany wasn’t defeated by Israel and didn’t surrender n conditionally to Israel. The  very same people who heels an ideology to exterminate all Jews soon parted with it. And not because they were afraid of what Israel would do to them.   Also note that Germany was as transformed by the Marshall Plan that followed the War as it was by the destruction it sustained during the war.
 

The point is this false claim of yours that societies cant part ways with a extremist ideology or you can somehow beat them into submission just isn’t supported by history. Germans developed their extremist ideology as a result of the harsh conditions and destruction imposed upon the them after WW1, but not after WW2 in great deal due to the Marshall Plan. Ditto Japan. E allies especially the US spent a lot of money to ensure those countries rebuilt in to modern advanced economies. 
 

Afghanistan:  you can’t be serious  The Taliban won, the reason they stopped attacking us is because we left their country

Iraq: As far as terrorism against USA goes, that also ended because the US withdrew from Iraq. The organization ISIS was NOT the same as the Iraqi people just like Hamas is not same as the Palestinian people. ISIS was defeated completely without mass subjugation and humiliation of the Iraqi people and the US withdrew from Iraq instead of continuing to occupy Ithem claiming that the citizens are incapable of anything except terrorism and don’t “deserve” a state. 

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Germany wasn’t defeated by Israel and didn’t surrender n conditionally to Israel.

They might have at the time HAD ISRAEL EXISTED

 

But that's not what you were talking about. You were saying how wars always end by people making peace. They don't end that way as  a rule - they end when one side is completely defeated and crushed and surrenders and the victors take over that country and make sure that they can't rise against them again.

That's how wars end.  That's probably how this war will end from the looks of things.  Gaza will be utterly defeated and will eventually surrender, Israel  will move in and control their lives for quite some time till they're sure that hamas or anyone else is unable to weaponize the strip against israel again. 

My guess is that they will also try to internationally open doors so that anyone who wants to leave can, then make it worth while to leave to reduce the population. Which actually wouldn't be legal but i suspect that will happen anyway and nobody will really be able to PROVE that.  I also don't really care - if you are fine with your gov't slaughtering thousands of innocent women and children and driving nails in their genitals and burning them alive then i'm not sure that's a nation that has any right to exist.

[BeaverFever]

On 1/24/2024 at 1:21 PM, CdnFox said:

They don't end that way as  a rule - they end when one side is completely defeated and crushed and surrenders and the victors take over that country and make sure that they can't rise against them again.

1) That’s not true at all. Most wars don’t end that way, even when one side decisively defeats the other.  Most end simply because one or both sides decide that continuing conflict isn’t sustainable (politically, economically militarily or otherwise) or there is a regime change in one of the countries and an anri-war government comes to power. Israel is a perfect example. Israel successfully defended itself from multiple invasion attempts amd defeated the attacking forces bit it didn’t “crush” or “take over” Egypt or anyone else.  The attacking force were defeated in the field and what was left of them returned home. A peace treaty was signed after the last one the Egyptian President Was assassinated for it much like the Israeli PM was assassinated for peace with Palestinians but unlike Israel the Egyptian peace held. Vietnam is another example. Vietnam is friendly trading partner with US despite defeating US military in that war but never “taking over” USA. Iran-Iraq War, War of 1812, countless European continental wars,  there are so many where this is the case. 
 

But the larger point is to refute the claim that so long as Palestinians exist on this earth they will try to annihilate and destroy Israel even if they have their own prosperous state and happy lives and Im telling you that is just the same BS people say regarding every conflict. My point about Germany and Israel is to prove that a state who was ideologically committed on exterminating jews is now friendly with Israel. Nobody said “Germans can’t be allowed to have their own state they’ll never stop invading Europe and exterminating Jews”. Even though Germany had a track record of invading Europe. . People understood that you can have a German state without it being a Nazi state as these are not the same thing.  The allies through the Marshall plan ensured it would be a successful state so people would not have motivation to join extremist causes. 
 

On 1/24/2024 at 1:21 PM, CdnFox said:

Gaza will be utterly defeated and will eventually surrender, Israel  will move in and control their lives for quite some time till they're sure that hamas or anyone else is unable to weaponize the strip against israel again. 

Controlling their lives is how they for into this mess in the first place. Continued occupation will only lead to continued terrorism, and intensified occupation will only lead to intensified terrorism period. Terrorism is like crime, you can only control it so much with cops and soldiers, most you have eliminate the socio-political factor ls that cause people to choose these activities. 

[BeaverFever]

On 1/22/2024 at 3:55 PM, Moonbox said:

This is absolute nonsense.  A serial rapist/murderer isn't the same as a bootlegger, so this is a pretty goofy analogy.  

Comparing Israeli to Gazan leadership, only one of them deliberately goes out of its way to get its own people killed.  Somehow that's not registering for you.  

I didn’t mean to imply Israel is just as evil as Hamas bit they are not good guys. In the way that I think a serial killer who strangles hookers is a lot more evil than a wealthy oligarch who has an investigative reporter murdered. You know Hamas is chaotic evil vs Likud’s lawful evil, The Joker bs Darth Vader. 
 

On 1/22/2024 at 3:55 PM, Moonbox said:

Broader conditions" is a meaningless platitude, and your view of the Palestinians is infantilizing.  You imply/suggest that all of their bad choices over the years (particularly Oct 7th) have been causally determined by Israel's actions, but never the other way around.  That's crap.  

No it’s not meaningless. It’s just a fact that Occupation leads to terrorism and the only way off the merry-go-round is an exit strategy to end the occupation. Likud governments have never wanted that. There must be TWO peace partners, not one who surrendered unilaterally. Right now and for the last 30 years there have been zero. 
 

On 1/22/2024 at 3:55 PM, Moonbox said:

Germany didn't really make peace with anyone though, did they?  They let the worst crazies take control,  then they got pounded into dust and lost most of their military-aged male population.  They spent the next 50 years under military occupation.  Miraculously, the next generation didn't grow up to be terrorists and they somehow learned that living by the sword means dying by the sword, and that there was a better way.  

Its not like Germans today still want to exterminate Jews and invade Europe but are afraid of the consequences.  Germans turned to extremism due to the hardship of life in the Weimar  Republic, imposed on them by the Allied powers after World War One. After World War Two the Allies were determined not to repeat their mistakes and instead adopted the Marshall Plan to rebuild Germany as a modern prosperous economy.  Germans had prosperous lives and a future to look forward to and abandoned extremist ideology. That’s the “Broader conditions” that lead to peace instead of war. 

[CdnFox]

18 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s not true at all. Most wars don’t end that way, even when one side decisively defeats the other.

Sure they do.  Which modern wars have ended with one side wining and not taking over the other country for a while?

19 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Most end simply because one or both sides decide that continuing conflict isn’t sustainable (politically, economically militarily or otherwise) or there is a regime change in one of the countries and an anri-war government comes to power.

Do they.  Gulf war didn't.  Iraq didn't (either of them). Libya didn't . Afghanistan didn't.

Sorry man, you're just plain wrong.   It can happen where both sides become exhausted and give up but then the war tends to still be just taking a break - North korea,  probably what will wind up happening in Ukraine. 

Name which war ended without that

22 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Israel is a perfect example. Israel successfully defended itself from multiple invasion attempts

The UN prevented that from ending - and look at how 'peaceful' they are now.

And israel definitely did take over land during those attacks. As the Palestinians about that.  So no - isreal is a horrible example.  Cease fires were arranged, nothing got resolved. The wars didn't really 'end, the un got in the way and the combatants went back to their corners for a while.

24 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

But the larger point is to refute the claim that so long as Palestinians exist on this earth they will try to annihilate and destroy Israel even if they have their own prosperous state and happy lives and Im telling you that is just the same BS people say regarding every conflict

No it isn't. You don't see the germans still saying some gothic version of 'from the river to the sea'.  Simply making that statement changes nothing - and the demonstrations around the world make that clear.

Honestly there's a few countries in teh middle east that could benefit from a good flattening. Iran is really pushing things right now because they think biden won't do anything in an election year.

[Army Guy]

15 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

But the larger point is to refute the claim that so long as Palestinians exist on this earth they will try to annihilate and destroy Israel even if they have their own prosperous state and happy lives and Im telling you that is just the same BS people say regarding every conflict. My point about Germany and Israel is to prove that a state who was ideologically committed on exterminating jews is now friendly with Israel. Nobody said “Germans can’t be allowed to have their own state they’ll never stop invading Europe and exterminating Jews”. Even though Germany had a track record of invading Europe. . People understood that you can have a German state without it being a Nazi state as these are not the same thing.  The allies through the Marshall plan ensured it would be a successful state so people would not have motivation to join extremist causes. 
 

Controlling their lives is how they for into this mess in the first place. Continued occupation will only lead to continued terrorism, and intensified occupation will only lead to intensified terrorism period. Terrorism is like crime, you can only control it so much with cops and soldiers, most you have eliminate the socio-political factor ls that cause people to choose these activities. 

Well they have been fighting since well before 1948, so it would be a lie to say that they are looking for a peaceful solution, when in fact they are looking for the total destruction of the jewish state...That fact was in their own constitution. Not sure how you can dispute that...

I find it ironic that Gaza in it's entirety has been given back to Palestinians since 2005, Israelis moved out all it's people alive and dead, and gave the entire city to the Palestinian authority...There is no occupation of gaza of any kind...and yet they continue to rocket and kill jews on a regulars basis...It is now under HAMAS control...

So your statement of continued occupation is not valid, Gaza was not occupied...until after Oct 7...and yet terrorism is never ceased....Gaza and west bank are not the same, both are governed by to separate identities...one has ben given total control over their destiny, the other lives under Israelis control becasue of the holy sites and Israel capitol. 

The west bank is under occupation, becasue of the jewish holy sites....here the west bank is under Fatwah control, which has little ties to Hamas... Here is where Israel has continued to force palestinians off their lands...

You mention the longer the fighting goes on the more terrorist will be born...well the fighting has been going on back as far as time is recorded...Israel has grown tired of living under such conditions, and now it has been pushed to the brink.

[athos]

Biden will be tried for genocide against the Palestinian people

 

 

Edited January 29 by athos

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, athos said:

Biden will be tried for genocide against the Palestinian people

 

 

That might actually win him a little support

[Moonbox]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:20 PM, BeaverFever said:

I didn’t mean to imply Israel is just as evil as Hamas bit they are not good guys. 

I'm not sure who you think is saying they are.  I just watched some videos of Gazans walking openly down the streets holding white flags and getting gunned down in cold blood with Israeli tanks parked nearby.  It's possible some of these are false flag, but I suspect at least some of them are exactly what they look like.   

On 1/25/2024 at 10:20 PM, BeaverFever said:

No it’s not meaningless. It’s just a fact that Occupation leads to terrorism and the only way off the merry-go-round is an exit strategy to end the occupation. Likud governments have never wanted that. There must be TWO peace partners, not one who surrendered unilaterally. Right now and for the last 30 years there have been zero. 

This is the infantilizing of the Palestinian people that I mentioned.  You imply that their bad actions over the years (like the Oct 7th attacks) are consequences of other external influence, rather than the choices they made.  You curiously don't apply that same consideration for the Israelis, who've lived under constant threat of attack since Israel's founding and might have some reasoning for the security measures they impose.

On 1/25/2024 at 10:20 PM, BeaverFever said:

Its not like Germans today still want to exterminate Jews and invade Europe but are afraid of the consequences.  Germans turned to extremism due to the hardship of life in the Weimar  Republic, imposed on them by the Allied powers after World War One.

The Treaty of Versailles was a mistake and made future conflict likely, but only because it was such a compromise.  It humiliated Germany and impoverished the German people, but did nothing to curb Prussian militarism or their ability (and inclination) to conduct war.  A revanchist war with France, Britain and Poland were perhaps foreseeable.  The Final Solution and Lebensraum were uniquely German choices.   

On 1/25/2024 at 10:20 PM, BeaverFever said:

After World War Two the Allies were determined not to repeat their mistakes and instead adopted the Marshall Plan to rebuild Germany as a modern prosperous economy.  Germans had prosperous lives and a future to look forward to and abandoned extremist ideology. That’s the “Broader conditions” that lead to peace instead of war. 

The Soviets made sure the mistake wasn't repeated.  They forced all of the Germans out of East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia and brutally subjugated East Germany for ~50 years.  The Marshall Plan wasn't benevolence on behalf of the Allies.  It was a strategy to meant to yoke the strength, knowledge and experience of the West Germans and use them as a bulwark against a common enemy in the USSR.  

Germany unconditionally surrendered and they had no choice in the peace that was made, but that peace lasted.  

Edited January 29 by Moonbox

[BeaverFever]

Another example of IDF war crimes:  burning down civilian homes with all possessions inside  

And before the usual apologists start in with their excuses, weee not talking about Hamas bunkers, Hamas members home, weapons storage or fog of war, collateral damage or anything else  Just infantry troops deliberately burning down the homes that civilians were forced to flee  

IDF Forces Occupy Gaza Homes and Then Burn Them Down

“Setting fire to homes belonging to noncombatant civilians … is forbidden under international law,” Haaretz points out.
 

Israeli troops invading the Gaza Strip are occupying and then burning Palestinian homes there, apparent war crimes that follow literally incendiary calls by some Israeli leaders to “burn Gaza” — actions and words under consideration in the South African-led genocide case before the International Court of Justice.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reportedWednesday that IDF soldiers have burned hundreds of Gaza homes and everything in them, on direct orders of their commanders. Some Israeli troops have posted videos on social media showing them taking part in home burnings and describing their actions as revenge for fellow soldiers’ deaths or the October 7 Hamas-led attacks on Israel.

Israeli forces have also occupied homes, according to the newspaper. In one case, soldiers spared a home so that other IDF troops could use it, leaving a note reading, “We are not burning the house so you can enjoy it, and when you leave — you’ll know what to do.”
 

Previous reports have documented Israeli troops burning humanitarian aid supplies including food meant for starving Gazans, vandalizing Palestinian businesses, and ransacking homes.

IDF troops have also burned homes in the illegally occupied West Bank, where settlers from expanding apartheid colonies have also attacked Palestinian people and property….
 

https://truthout.org/articles/idf-forces-occupy-gaza-homes-and-then-burn-them-down/

 

[athos]

 

How would you describe the founders of the Anglo-Khazarian "nation"?
What "leads" them?

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Another example of IDF war crimes:  burning down civilian homes with all possessions inside  

 

Another? You haven't proven one yet.

 

Quote

And before the usual apologists start in with their excuses, weee not talking about Hamas bunkers, Hamas members home, weapons storage or fog of war, collateral damage or anything else  Just infantry troops deliberately burning down the homes that civilians were forced to flee  

Yeah i call bullshit.  Considering the source i'll wait to see a credible claim come in with more detail.  But if they're doing that they shouldn't, it's not ok to burn people's homes without cause.

[Moonbox]

On 2/2/2024 at 6:56 PM, athos said:

How would you describe the founders of the Anglo-Khazarian "nation"?
What "leads" them?

For someone getting paid to troll for Putin, you're pretty bad at it.