Hamas Attacks Israel

[BeaverFever]

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So what you're saying is that israel's going to win.

If by “Israel” you lean the current anti-peace Israeli hardliners in government who want to prevent lasting peace at all costs and wish to indefinitely maintain the current status quo of tit-for-tat terrorist attacks and “mowing the grass”…then yes I think that’s who is going to win. But that also means Hamas wins too, because they want the same thing. 

[BeaverFever]

19 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Perhaps, but Israel hasn't put those people in charge and allowed them to act on their behalf, whereas the Palestinians have.  

Yes Israel has. Many members of the Israeli government are hardliners including current minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir  Let me repeat that:  the man in charge of Israel’s security on Oct 7 is a pro-war extremist who was previously convicted of supporting an anti-Palestinian terrorist group.   Netanyahu and the rest of his government are not much better

Ben-Gvir, a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-Americanmass murderer and Jewish extremistBaruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. He removed the portrait after he entered politics.^[6] He was also previously convicted of supporting a terrorist group known as Kach, which espoused Kahanism, an extremist religious Zionist ideology.^[7]

Under his leadership, the Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), a party which espouses Kahanism and anti-Arabism, won six seats in the 2022 Israeli legislative election, and is represented in what has been called the most right-wing and hardline government in Israel's history.^{[8][9][10][11]} He has called for the expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel who are not loyal to Israel.^[11] Ben Gvir is "widely known for his openly racist, anti-Arab views and activities".^[12] Israeli sociologist Eva Illouz has said Ben Gvir represents "Jewish fascism".^[13]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir

Edited January 10 by BeaverFever

[Moonbox]

35 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yes, countries like Britain for example have known for centuries you can't just barge into a new land and claim everything in sight as theirs without so much as a by-your-leave. Its why BC's earliest Governor Generals were under instructions to secure treaties that legalised BC's colonisation.  They didn't and now we're up to our necks in court trying to sort things out.

You could, and it happened all of the time.  The reason we're in our necks in Court is because the British didn't do what was standard at the time, which was some combination of extermination, subjugation, expulsion or enslavement.  In other places where this did happen, the people living there now don't concern themselves too much with the folk who lived there decades or centuries ago, nor their descendants.  

35 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Maybe then governments can go back to having a more pagan ethos about might making right and start treating the pretension of benevolence for the woke nonsense many seem to think acknowledging, reconciling and negotiating treaties and such really is.

The obsession for generations-old grievances to be "set right" is what prevents anyone from moving forward.  Sometimes setting things "right" from one perspective can only be accomplished by doing wrong by someone else, and causing a new cycle of grievances.  Nobody's going to reverse the creation of Israel.  There are seven million Jews living there now.  Similarly, there's something like 5 million Palestinians.  Neither group is going away, so until both groups embrace that reality, this keeps happening.  

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure Israel has. Likud and Netanyahu have preached their own version of 'from-the-river-to-the-sea' and they align with a hard-right coalition made up of political parties whose rhetoric is often as egregious as Hamas'.   

Evidently not, because Israel's armed forces could quickly make that a reality, but they haven't.  There are fringe nuts everywhere, and that's hard to avoid, but when you hand them the keys to your kingdom, that's on you.  

[Moonbox]

1 minute ago, BeaverFever said:

Yes Israel has. Many members of the Israeli government are hardliners including current minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir  Let me repeat that:  the man in charge of Israel’s security on Oct 7 is a pro-war extremist who was previously convicted of supporting an anti-Palestinian terrorist group.   

7 Seats in Parliament and a Cabinet appointment doesn't put you at the steering wheel.  This is a Faustian bargain that Netanyahu made and it smells really bad all over, but that speaks to how fragile that government is, and how much opposition there is to it.  

[BeaverFever]

25 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

7 Seats in Parliament and a Cabinet appointment doesn't put you at the steering wheel.  This is a Faustian bargain that Netanyahu made and it smells really bad all over, but that speaks to how fragile that government is, and how much opposition there is to it.  

It sure does, he’s not Minister of Sport or Minister of Arts and Culture, he’s Minister of National Security!  Nothing is forcing Netanyahu to form a coalition with this extremist party much less put it in charge of the country’s national security…..something that failed horribly on October 7 while conveniently gave the same extremists the war they wanted.   Netanyahu himself is a hardliner who openly brags about having sabotaged past peace initiatives. 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

If by “Israel” you lean the current anti-peace Israeli hardliners in government who want to prevent lasting peace at all costs and wish to indefinitely maintain the current status quo of tit-for-tat terrorist attacks and “mowing the grass”…then yes I think that’s who is going to win. But that also means Hamas wins too, because they want the same thing. 

No, by "Israel' I mean the country that's currently beating the living snot out of your terrorist zenophobe buddies in Gaza who started this war.   

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

It sure does, he’s not Minister of Sport or Minister of Arts and Culture, he’s Minister of National Security!

With 7 seats in a 120-seat, democratically elected legislature. 

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Nothing is forcing Netanyahu to form a coalition with this extremist party much less put it in charge of the country’s national security…..

I imagine Ben Gvir did, as a condition of his support.  Nobody forced Netanyahu to be a turd and self-absorbed enough to accept it, but  

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

something that failed horribly on October 7 while conveniently gave the same extremists the war they wanted.   Netanyahu himself is a hardliner who openly brags about having sabotaged past peace initiatives. 

I didn't take you as a conspiracy theorist, but that's what this sounds like.  I have nothing but bad things to say about Netanyahu and agree he's counter-productive to the peace process, but I don't think he staged or facilitated an attack on his own people.  

[BeaverFever]

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

With 7 seats in a 120-seat, democratically elected legislature. 

So what? The small number of seats is even less of a reason reason for Netanyahu to have added his extremist party to his coalition government, much less placing the extremist leader as head of the country’s national security. 

 

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I imagine Ben Gvir did, as a condition of his support.  Nobody forced Netanyahu to be a turd and self-absorbed enough to accept it, but  

Exactly because Netanyahu has s a turd, he’s no moderate and never has been. He has never claimed to be a moderate except for maybe a decade or two ago and even the it was only when speaking to US media. For years many in Israel have publicly blamed him for the assassination of former PM Yitzhak Rabin due to the violent rhetoric against the peace process being pursued at that time. 
 

 

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

didn't take you as a conspiracy theorist, but that's what this sounds like.  I have nothing but bad things to say about Netanyahu and agree he's counter-productive to the peace process, but I don't think he staged or facilitated an attack on his own people.  

So as I said previously on this thread I’m not floating a conspiracy but optics matter and this is exactly why you don’t appoint pro-violence extremists like Ben-Gvir to critical positions like national security.  Even if there is no conspiracy you can’t appoint people who would have every ideological motive to engage in such a conspiracy and who benefit from the events that unfold as a result  You can’t put a reformed pedophile in charge of a daycare even if you have absolute certainty he won’t do anything wrong because you know that even a false accusation against him would seem credible and you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on so similarly you really have to question why in the case o Israel the pedophile was put in charge of protecting the children (and then spectacularly failed to do so)  And then as revenge for the children he failed to protect he’s been allowed to host an orgy with the children of the other side which is something he’s always wanted 

Even if there was no secret plot - and I’m not saying there was - you can’t tell me their violent anti-Palestinian views don’t consciously and subconsciously guide the decisions they make and are continuing to make. 
 

 

[BeaverFever]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

No, by "Israel' I mean the country that's currently beating the living snot out of your terrorist zenophobe buddies in Gaza who started this war.   

The terrorists aren’t my buddies  don’t play those childish games republicans like to play where they accuse anyone who disagrees with them as being terrorist sympathizers.  That’s exactly how they brow-beat Americans into their fraudulent BS Iraq invasion  

And if you honestly don’t think killing tens of thousands of civilians and children isn’t going to lead to more terrorism and probably worse terrorist acts you’re not very smart. That’s exactly what happened in the Republicans Iraq invasion, just as the so-called “terrorist sympathizers” who opposed that fraudulent Republican war predicted  

Like what do you think is going to happen when this is all over, the 2 million+ displaced Palestinians, most of whom now have family and friends that have lost innocent lives and children are just going to shrug their shoulders, go back to their obliterated cities and repressive Israeli occupation or a refugee camp in some other country?  

Israel couldn’t have done a better job of recruiting for Hamas and Islamic terrorist groups if it tried. This is exactly what those groups want amd the only result is going to be more terrorism. 

Edited January 10 by BeaverFever

[Moonbox]

54 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

So what? The small number of seats is even less of a reason reason for Netanyahu to have added his extremist party to his coalition government, much less placing the extremist leader as head of the country’s national security. 

So it was the number that allowed him to form a government.  Whether it was 7 seats or 20 didn't really matter to him, I imagine.  Pushing him over 50% was what did.  

54 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Exactly because Netanyahu has s a turd, he’s no moderate and never has been. He has never claimed to be a moderate except for maybe a decade or two ago and even the it was only when speaking to US media. For years many in Israel have publicly blamed him for the assassination of former PM Yitzhak Rabin due to the violent rhetoric against the peace process being pursued at that time. 

I won't argue that, but Israel is still a democracy.  Even the Likud is "moderate" compared to Hamas, and then there are the actual moderates, centrists and actual Arab parties/groups in the Israeli parliament.  Dissenting opinions, protests and a system of checks and balances all exist in Israel, but not so for the Palestinians.  

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Even if there was no secret plot - and I’m not saying there was - you can’t tell me their violent anti-Palestinian views don’t consciously and subconsciously guide the decisions they make and are continuing to make. 

The idea that there may have been a secret plot is ridiculous to me.  Oct 7th and its fallout will likely be the end of Netanyahu and probably (hopefully) Ben Gvir politically, since the one thing they say they're all about is exactly what they failed miserably at, which is security.   As bad as Netanyahu is, he's still governing for Israel and the Israeli people, and he answers to them.  Hamas answers to Iran and its other sponsors, and doesn't give a shit about the people in Gaza or the West Bank. 

The massacre on Oct 7 was the work of animals, but that wasn't even the worst part. The worst part is that the whole point of Hamas' attack was to get Palestinian civilians killed in the ensuing Israeli response.  Don't draw false equivalences when you have that big fat reality staring right at you.  

[BeaverFever]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

So it was the number that allowed him to form a government.  Whether it was 7 seats or 20 didn't really matter to him, I imagine.  Pushing him over 50% was what did.  

Claiming ‘he’s not evil he just partners with evil’ is no excuse. You’re saying Netanyahu is so craven and morally debased he will do anything to seize power?  He couldn’t get anyone else less evil to join his coalition? What if it was the Nazi party or the ISIS party, still good to go and nothing to see here? He might as well form a coalition with Hamas itself then, no?

Also note that stating “he couldn’t form a government without them” completely undermines your original argument of “it’s only 7 seats” although I think it is closer to the truth They hold the keys to his  power and he is beholden to them  

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

won't argue that, but Israel is still a democracy.  Even the Likud is "moderate" compared to Hamas, and then there are the actual moderates, centrists and actual Arab parties/groups in the Israeli parliament.  Dissenting opinions, protests and a system of checks and balances all exist in Israel, but not so for the Palestinians.  

Israel is a democracy the way apartheid South Africa and the Jim Crow South were democracies. Israeli citizens of Arab dissent do not have the same rights and Jewish citizens. One of the founders and heroes Ben-Gvir’s party taught that democracy is incompatible with a Jewish State and actually advocated against democracy.

 BTW  the big controversy in Israel prior to Oct 7 was widespread mass protests and unrest among Israelis over Netanyahu’s ongoing attempts to dismantle those checks and balances. His government is trying to force through major reforms of the independent judiciary to put it under the control of his government and this is still happening in the background although conveniently no longer in the news cycle thanks to Oct 7. 
 

Regarding Palestine you point out it is not a democracy and yet its critics also want to hold all Palestinians collectively responsible for electing Hamas, so which is it, it can’t be both.  FTR Hamas was elected in 2007 as its initial experiment in democracy but unfortunately Hamas seized total control and democracy was still born in the occupied territories. I have never claimed either of the Palestinian Territories is a democracy and I don’t think a democracy is even possible while under an oppressive occupation but that doesn’t excuse Israel one bit. 
 

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

As bad as Netanyahu is, he's still governing for Israel and the Israeli people, and he answers to them.  Hamas answers to Iran and its other sponsors, and doesn't give a shit about the people in Gaza or the West Bank. 

The massacre on Oct 7 was the work of animals, but that wasn't even the worst part. The worst part is that the whole point of Hamas' attack was to get Palestinian civilians killed in the ensuing Israeli response.  Don't draw false equivalences when you have that big fat reality staring right at you.  

See comments above re Netanyahus attacks on Israeli democracy but lore importantly this isn’t an argument about whether Netanyahu is better than Hamas. Netanyahu is not entitled to indiscriminately kill an unlimited number of innocent civilians and children simply because he is better than Hamas. Anyone who thinks that once the last Hamas members are killed Israel will be more secure and there will be less terrorism is delusional. Israel’s brutal response has only ensure that there will be more and worse terrorism for generations to come , in addition  I expect there will be a big Israel land grab and/or depopulation attempt out of this as well.  Many Israeli leaders are already calling for Palestinian civilians to permanently pushed out of Gaza amd relocated into Arab states.  

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Also note that stating “he couldn’t form a government without them” completely undermines your original argument of “it’s only 7 seats” although I think it is closer to the truth They hold the keys to his  power and he is beholden to them.  

No it doesn't, because the whole point is that it's 7 seats out of 120, isn't a mandate and it doesn't put you at the steering wheel setting policy.  Whatever concessions they may be able to get, they also have to make concessions from their views/beliefs.  As it stands, this government will likely collapse soon anyways, with Netanyahu at <15% approval and the more moderate parts of his coalition not keen on his judicial reform, nevermind the disaster of Oct 7th.  

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Israel is a democracy the way apartheid South Africa and the Jim Crow South were democracies. Israeli citizens of Arab dissent do not have the same rights and Jewish citizens. One of the founders and heroes Ben-Gvir’s party taught that democracy is incompatible with a Jewish State and actually advocated against democracy.

Whatever failings and inequity they have in their system, they're still a democracy and still answer to their people.  By any objective standard of freedom or equality, Israel stands head and shoulders above its neighbours.   

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Regarding Palestine you point out it is not a democracy and yet its critics also want to hold all Palestinians collectively responsible for electing Hamas, so which is it, it can’t be both. 

That's some magical logic there though, isn't it?  Despite being Palestinian and the governing authority in Gaza, made up by and recruited from Palestinians, supported by Palestinians and then lauded and cheered for their attacks (and hidden and abetted by them afterwards), the Palestinians are collectively blameless because they checked "no" on the democracy box?  Oof.  

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Netanyahu is not entitled to indiscriminately kill an unlimited number of innocent civilians and children simply because he is better than Hamas.

It's bizarre to me that you think anyone here is suggesting he is.  One thing the IDF is entitled to do, however, is seek out and destroy Hamas.  The fact that they're continuing their attacks and threats while hiding behind their own people doesn't magically render them impervious from response.   

6 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Israel’s brutal response has only ensure that there will be more and worse terrorism for generations to come , in addition  I expect there will be a big Israel land grab and/or depopulation attempt out of this as well.

Reverse that logic now, and tell us how living through numerous invasion attempts, constant terrorism and a jihadist government next door threatening your annihilation and swarming across your border to murder thousands of your  civilians affects the Israelis.  Applying your same reasoning, we can rest assured that this will embolden and encourage Israeli hardliners for generations to justify exactly what you're criticizing them for doing.  

[BeaverFever]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No it doesn't, because the whole point is that it's 7 seats out of 120, isn't a mandate and it doesn't put you at the steering wheel setting policy.  Whatever concessions they may be able to get, they also have to make concessions from their views/beliefs. 

I don’t think Netanyahu is as far from their extreme views/beliefs as you would like to believe and I think what is happening now is exactly what the extremists wanted. 
 

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Whatever failings and inequity they have in their system, they're still a democracy and still answer to their people.  By any objective standard of freedom or equality, Israel stands head and shoulders above its neighbours.   

Again, so what it’s not a contest about whether Israel is better than its neighbours. It doesn’t matter that in this especially ugly part of the world Israel is the leper with the most fingers or the wife-beater who beats his wife the least compared to his neighbours. Israel is failing to the meet the standards of a rights-based democracy and it’s not relevant how much worse other countries are. 
 

6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

That's some magical logic there though, isn't it?  Despite being Palestinian and the governing authority in Gaza, made up by and recruited from Palestinians, supported by Palestinians and then lauded and cheered for their attacks (and hidden and abetted by them afterwards), the Palestinians are collectively blameless because they checked "no" on the democracy box?  Oof.  

I think you misrepresent:

-how Hamas seized power in that one election nearly twenty years ago,

- Israel’s role in helping discredit the secular Palestinian Authority thereby at least indirectly supporting Hamas because Israel wanted Palestinians divided into factions instead of just under the PA and Israel believing Hamas would still be manageable

- How Hamas then clung to power through brutal oppression not support of the Palestinian people 

Also at any rate  “collective punishment “ of all civilians for the actions of their government, as Israel is doing and many on this forum call for, is a war crime.   Saying things like “but they voted for him” or “but they could have overthrown them” in order to justify or trivialize their deaths doesn’t hold any water in any court of law. 
 

6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

t's bizarre to me that you think anyone here is suggesting he is.  One thing the IDF is entitled to do, however, is seek out and destroy Hamas.  The fact that they're continuing their attacks and threats while hiding behind their own people doesn't magically render them impervious from response.   

But that’s really what they are saying. I mean Israel is not at all being careful. Half the ordinance dropped on Gaza is unguided. They are bombing refugee camps and places they had said would be safe for refugees to go. They’re deliberately shooting unarmed civilians dead in the streets including 3 of their own escaped Israeli hostages who were half-naked and waving a white flag for the troops to come get them. 

I’m not aware of “revenge”  being a valid reason to knowingly kill thousands of civilians, and  if the justification is really to make Israel safer from future terrorist attacks,  this civilian death toll has done the exact opposite as it ensures that there will only be more and worse terrorism for decades to come by those outraged by the civilian death toll. 
 

6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Reverse that logic now, and tell us how living through numerous invasion attempts, constant terrorism and a jihadist government next door threatening your annihilation and swarming across your border to murder thousands of your  civilians affects the Israelis.  Applying your same reasoning, we can rest assured that this will embolden and encourage Israeli hardliners for generations to justify exactly what you're criticizing them for doing.  

Exactly as I’ve said many times already Israeli hardliners and Hamas want the same thing: no peace. Israeli hardliners and Hamas have both decided that perpetual occupation, terrorism and war are preferable to any lasting peace in which they will not get everything for themselves   As Ive already mentioned Israel actually has a term for this violence they call it “mowing the grass” in other words rather than recognizing a 2-state solution, they would rather accept the cycle of violence as something to live with and to manage. 

[Moonbox]

14 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I don’t think Netanyahu is as far from their extreme views/beliefs as you would like to believe and I think what is happening now is exactly what the extremists wanted. 

No.  I don't think the hardliners wanted 1200 dead Israelis on their watch and hundreds of abducted hostages.  Netanyahu has always positioned himself as the best man for a safe and secure Israel, and Ben-Gvir is the Minister of Security. This makes them both look like fools.  

14 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Again, so what it’s not a contest about whether Israel is better than its neighbours. It doesn’t matter that in this especially ugly part of the world Israel is the leper with the most fingers or the wife-beater who beats his wife the least compared to his neighbours. Israel is failing to the meet the standards of a rights-based democracy and it’s not relevant how much worse other countries are. 

It matters when their democracy, flawed as it may be, provides the checks and balances (including their judiciary) that prevents the worst among them from controlling everything.  

14 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I think you misrepresent:

-how Hamas seized power in that one election nearly twenty years ago,

- Israel’s role in helping discredit the secular Palestinian Authority thereby at least indirectly supporting Hamas because Israel wanted Palestinians divided into factions instead of just under the PA and Israel believing Hamas would still be manageable

- How Hamas then clung to power through brutal oppression not support of the Palestinian people 

I think you're misrepresenting.  The idea that Gaza was afflicted with Hamas is farcical when it's a homegrown Palestinian movement run by Palestinians and broadly supported by the Palestinians.  75% of Palestinians in Gaza supported the October 7th attack and believe it was justified.  Read that again.  Fully 3/4 of Gazans think it was good and right that their people stormed across the Israeli border, raped girls and women in front of their families, burned children and murdered or abducted anyone they came across.

The idea that Gazans can fire 2200 cheap dumbfire rockets into Israeli cities in one day and that Israel has to retaliate with hundred thousand dollar guided missiles is as ridiculous as the idea Israel was ever going to be able to avoid widespread civilian casualties.  Hamas made sure that was impossible.  

On 1/11/2024 at 9:49 PM, BeaverFever said:

if the justification is really to make Israel safer from future terrorist attacks,  this civilian death toll has done the exact opposite as it ensures that there will only be more and worse terrorism for decades to come by those outraged by the civilian death toll.

Gosh, so you're saying this isn't a hearts and minds campaign for the Israelis, and that you don't think they're winning them over?  That boat sailed on Oct 7th.  Now it's about eliminating/mitigating their ability to threaten Israelis, rather than their inclinations.

[eyeball]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:06 PM, Moonbox said:

Dissenting opinions, protests and a system of checks and balances all exist in Israel, but not so for the Palestinians.  

Saying Hamas has legitimate widespread support is like saying Putin is a man of the people.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Saying Hamas has legitimate widespread support is like saying Putin is a man of the people.

Cite.  Saying so don't make it so.  It would seem they do have widespread support but you go ahead and post your proof.

[BeaverFever]

On 1/12/2024 at 10:04 PM, Moonbox said:

No.  I don't think the hardliners wanted 1200 dead Israelis on their watch and hundreds of abducted hostages. 

At best they let “the grass” get a little longer than they intended. Just like when George W Bush took advantage of the wave patriotism after 9-11 to falsely justify the fraudulent invasion of Iraq that his cronies had been dreaming about for years, Netanyahu, Ben Gvir et al are taking advantage  with a depopulation and probably a land grab that they’ve always dreamed of.   They certainly never wanted a lasting peace before Oct 7 and certainly aren’t even pretending to be now. 
 

On 1/12/2024 at 10:04 PM, Moonbox said:

It matters when their democracy, flawed as it may be, provides the checks and balances (including their judiciary) that prevents the worst among them from controlling everything.  

No it doesn’t matter. Again this isn’t a contest between who is worse, Israelis or Arabs.
 

On 1/12/2024 at 10:04 PM, Moonbox said:

think you're misrepresenting.  The idea that Gaza was afflicted with Hamas is farcical when it's a homegrown Palestinian movement run by Palestinians and broadly supported by the Palestinians.  75% of Palestinians in Gaza supported the October 7th attack and believe it was justified.  Read that again.  Fully 3/4 of Gazans think it was good and right that their people stormed across the Israeli border, raped girls and women in front of their families, burned children and murdered or abducted anyone they came across.

The idea that Gazans can fire 2200 cheap dumbfire rockets into Israeli cities in one day and that Israel has to retaliate with hundred thousand dollar guided missiles is as ridiculous as the idea Israel was ever going to be able to avoid widespread civilian casualties.  Hamas made sure that was impossible. 

Israel had a hand in creating the circumstances that lead to the rise of Hamas in the first place and the miserable conditions of occupation in which Palestinians still live. Hamas is evil but to steal a bible quote both sides have sown the wind.  Prior to Oct 7 Netanyahu and crew had ling held that enduring the odd rocket barrage or suicide bombing was preferable to peace 

I also think you’re misrepresenting Israeli bombing  If it was simply bombing rocket sites with precision weapons it would be less of an issue but we see them bombing refugee camps with dumb bombs not to destroy rockets but allegedly to kill Hamas members  if killing one terrorist creates 1000 more terrorists due to civilian casualties then do you really think you’re making yourself safer?

 

On 1/12/2024 at 10:04 PM, Moonbox said:

Gosh, so you're saying this isn't a hearts and minds campaign for the Israelis, and that you don't think they're winning them over?  That boat sailed on Oct 7th.  Now it's about eliminating/mitigating their ability to threaten Israelis, rather than their inclinations.

Explain how this will “eliminate/mitigate” the threat exactly.  Like walk me through the steps you imagine will occur. It sounds like the old “the beatings will continue until morale improves” logic
 

The threat to Israel is people willing to resort to terrorism, period. The only way to eliminate/ mitigate that is through a peace process which Israelis haven’t been interested in since they assassinated the last PM to attempt it 30 years ago. Of course Palestinians haven’t either as I said it’s not a contest. 
 

 

[BeaverFever]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:45 PM, CdnFox said:

Cite.  Saying so don't make it so.  It would seem they do have widespread support but you go ahead and post your proof.

They were very unpopular BEFORE Oct 7 but are very popular since the Israeli campaign given the massive civilian casualties and the fact that 100% of the population is now displaced 

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas

Before the War, Gaza’s Leaders Were Deeply Unpopular—but an Israeli Crackdown Could Change That

By Amaney A. Jamal and Michael Robbins

October 25, 2023
 

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
 

 

As Israel fights to destroy Hamas, the group's popularity surges among Palestinians

DECEMBER 21, 20235:00 AM ET
 

"Three months ago ... we had 12% support for Hamas in the West Bank, and today it is 44%, so that's more than tripled," says Khalil Shikaki, director of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Research.
 

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/21/1217758546/hamas-support-palestinians-west-bank
 

 

Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics

According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack. 
 

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah
 

Before Israel’s Invasion, Hamas Popularity Was Waning Among Its Neighbors — Even in Gaza Itself

 

A Nov. 20-23, 2008 poll by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center found that 37% of Palestinians would vote for Fatah in legislative elections, compared with just 20% for Hamas. In the Fatah-controlled West Bank, Fatah led Hamas by a 35-18% margin. More interestingly, Fatah also led by a 40-22% margin in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. A poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, conduced December 3-5, 2008, also found that Fatah was more popular than Hamas in both the West Bank and Gaza.

Turning Away from Radicalism

There are other signs that the public opinion environment in the Muslim world had been growing less hospitable to Hamas. In recent years, there has been a steady decline in support for Hamas’ most infamous tactic: suicide bombing. For instance, in the 2002 Pew Global Attitudes survey, 74% of Lebanese Muslims said suicide bombing was often or sometimes justifiable, compared with 32% six years later. Between 2004 and 2008, acceptance of suicide bombing dropped from 41% to 5% among Pakistani Muslims; and between 2005 and 2008, it dropped from 57% to 25% among Muslims in Jordan.

Another sign of disaffection is seen in the mixed reivew — at best — that Iran, widely considered a major benefactor of Hamas, receives in many largely Muslim nations. Most notably, at least half of those surveyed in Lebanon (66%), Jordan (56%), Turkey (56%), and Egypt (54%) expressed a negative opinion of Iran in the 2008 Pew Global Attitudes poll. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad fared even worse — majorities in Egypt (74%), Jordan (71%), Lebanon (67%), and Turkey (60%) said they have little or no confidence in the Iranian leader. So to the extent that Hamas is viewed as a proxy for Iran in a regional power struggle, this may damage the group’s appeal.
 

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/01/08/views-toward-hamas/

 

[CdnFox]

26 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

They were very unpopular BEFORE Oct 7 but are very popular since the Israeli campaign given the massive civilian casualties and the fact that 100% of the population is now displaced 

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas

Before the War, Gaza’s Leaders Were Deeply Unpopular—but an Israeli Crackdown Could Change That

By Amaney A. Jamal and Michael Robbins

October 25, 2023
 

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
 

 

As Israel fights to destroy Hamas, the group's popularity surges among Palestinians

DECEMBER 21, 20235:00 AM ET
 

"Three months ago ... we had 12% support for Hamas in the West Bank, and today it is 44%, so that's more than tripled," says Khalil Shikaki, director of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Research.
 

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/21/1217758546/hamas-support-palestinians-west-bank
 

 

Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics

According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack. 
 

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah
 

Before Israel’s Invasion, Hamas Popularity Was Waning Among Its Neighbors — Even in Gaza Itself

 

A Nov. 20-23, 2008 poll by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center found that 37% of Palestinians would vote for Fatah in legislative elections, compared with just 20% for Hamas. In the Fatah-controlled West Bank, Fatah led Hamas by a 35-18% margin. More interestingly, Fatah also led by a 40-22% margin in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. A poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, conduced December 3-5, 2008, also found that Fatah was more popular than Hamas in both the West Bank and Gaza.

Turning Away from Radicalism

There are other signs that the public opinion environment in the Muslim world had been growing less hospitable to Hamas. In recent years, there has been a steady decline in support for Hamas’ most infamous tactic: suicide bombing. For instance, in the 2002 Pew Global Attitudes survey, 74% of Lebanese Muslims said suicide bombing was often or sometimes justifiable, compared with 32% six years later. Between 2004 and 2008, acceptance of suicide bombing dropped from 41% to 5% among Pakistani Muslims; and between 2005 and 2008, it dropped from 57% to 25% among Muslims in Jordan.

Another sign of disaffection is seen in the mixed reivew — at best — that Iran, widely considered a major benefactor of Hamas, receives in many largely Muslim nations. Most notably, at least half of those surveyed in Lebanon (66%), Jordan (56%), Turkey (56%), and Egypt (54%) expressed a negative opinion of Iran in the 2008 Pew Global Attitudes poll. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad fared even worse — majorities in Egypt (74%), Jordan (71%), Lebanon (67%), and Turkey (60%) said they have little or no confidence in the Iranian leader. So to the extent that Hamas is viewed as a proxy for Iran in a regional power struggle, this may damage the group’s appeal.
 

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/01/08/views-toward-hamas/

 

I'll give you the quick answer in case you don't feel like reading:

While people don't like the economy it's pretty clear reading all that that every time hamas attacks isreal and isreal retaliates support for hamas goes up. in fact if hamas feels its "low in the polls" all it has to do is attack israel. This is 100 percent proof positive that the people support hamas's military attacks and terrorism.  If trudeau got us into a war we didn't agree with and our cities got bombed there is no universe where his support would go up is there. It's never happened in canada or america - unpopular wars get presidents and pm's fired.  So - end of day, they support the miliary attacks.

Here's the longer version  

Some of that is useful (much is not - even tho i did find the barometer group interesting reading), and i get that it's the best we probably have.  So fair enough

But it does not paint a picture of hamas being disliked for it's anti israel stance.  in fact - it seems that they are only unhappy about hamas's economic performance. It all but states outright that they'd be perfectly fine with hamas if the economy was better.

Soooo - not seeing any condemnation of hamas's military ventures when you look at the whole of the information. In fact - what was interesting to me is the fact the gazans supposedly are becoming more against democracy and want to do away with it altogether.  So they don't want to vote hamas out per se.  They want a different model.

What really struck me was reading the pew research and thinking 'so this was before the invasion and these were their pre-invasion opinions... the realizing that was from 2009. This was before the LAST war.  And the people haven't changed since then really, they still support hamas over democracy and just want a better economy and they blame hamas for that but little else.

Sorry - even if we give this information more weight than it deserves given that much of it is completely without any back up (not even how many people were surveyed and when , it doesn't seem to be weighted at all - it seems to contradict itself in some places) or it's age, the picture that emerges is that they're dissatisfied with the economy, but not hamas itself per se and they don't want an election.

 

So they're going to have to own it.

Further - there is the suggestion that when hamas starts a war and israel responds support for hamas goes UP.  So that's pretty solid proof they don't disapprove of hamas' military actions.  They APPROVE of them starting wars with Israel.

 

Now they pay the price for that support and they're going to die in large numbers, and that's precisely what happens when you decide it's ok to kill your neighbours women and children without provocation or warning. And seeing as they refuse to live in peace, many of them may have to die in pieces.  Hopefully they'll make better choices next time

[Moonbox]

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

At best they let “the grass” get a little longer than they intended. Just like when George W Bush took advantage of the wave patriotism after 9-11 to falsely justify the fraudulent invasion of Iraq that his cronies had been dreaming about for years, Netanyahu, Ben Gvir et al are taking advantage  with a depopulation and probably a land grab that they’ve always dreamed of.   They certainly never wanted a lasting peace before Oct 7 and certainly aren’t even pretending to be now. 

For someone who's not trying to peddle conspiracy theories, you can't seem to help yourself.  This one isn't even any good. Netanyahu's carefully crafted image of being the man for security cannot survive this, and it's crazy to think that he believed it could.  The Oct 7th attacks and the former Netanyahu brand cannot exist in the same reality.  "Oopsy we let the grass get too long, and Hamas went further than we'd hoped" is a ridiculous argument. 

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

No it doesn’t matter. Again this isn’t a contest between who is worse, Israelis or Arabs.

You drew the comparison, by drawing parallels between the Gazan/Hamas and Israeli political decision making processes.  It was a lousy comparison, and we didn't need a "contest" to sort it out. 

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Israel had a hand in creating the circumstances that lead to the rise of Hamas in the first place and the miserable conditions of occupation in which Palestinians still live. Hamas is evil but to steal a bible quote both sides have sown the wind.  Prior to Oct 7 Netanyahu and crew had ling held that enduring the odd rocket barrage or suicide bombing was preferable to peace 

Circular reasoning that can be flipped to defeat itself.  If Israel had a hand in the rise of Hamas and the miserable conditions in Gaza, then Gazan and Hamas were heavily responsible for the Israeli fear and nervousness that led to those conditions, and the hardline leadership they chose to deal with it. 

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I also think you’re misrepresenting Israeli bombing  If it was simply bombing rocket sites with precision weapons it would be less of an issue but we see them bombing refugee camps with dumb bombs not to destroy rockets but allegedly to kill Hamas members  if killing one terrorist creates 1000 more terrorists due to civilian casualties then do you really think you’re making yourself safer?

When "Death to Israel" is already the base case, and the Gazans already facilitate, support and cheer for attacks like  Oct 7th, what do you figure is happening here?  Are they going from "hating Israel" to "really REALLY hating Israel?"

12 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Explain how this will “eliminate/mitigate” the threat exactly.  Like walk me through the steps you imagine will occur. It sounds like the old “the beatings will continue until morale improves” logic

Dead Hamas members will find it harder to attack Israeli cities, as will ones pushed away from Israeli borders and denied support, weapons and infrastructure.  

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The threat to Israel is people willing to resort to terrorism, period. The only way to eliminate/ mitigate that is through a peace process which Israelis haven’t been interested in since they assassinated the last PM to attempt it 30 years ago. Of course Palestinians haven’t either as I said it’s not a contest. 

Israeli intransigence is cynical but realistic.  It's absurd to imagine a good-faith peace process with a group that calls for your extermination.  The Oslo Peace process wasn't nearly as close as you make it out to be, and it went on years after Rabin was assassinated.  It was probably the best chance we've seen, however, and anything we've seen since has been delusional (like Obama's, or the Arab Peace Initiative).  

[Moonbox]

On 1/13/2024 at 3:49 PM, eyeball said:

Saying Hamas has legitimate widespread support is like saying Putin is a man of the people.

and yet, even ignoring the polls we have access to that show it does, it's self-evident that they do.  🙄

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

and yet, even ignoring the polls we have access to that show it does, it's self-evident that they do.  🙄

Hatred certainly seems to outshine everything else over there at the moment and I expect it'll shine like that for some time, probably generations. Everyone is in just to fevered a state to think clearly about it let alone discuss it.

There's little reason to place much legitimacy to anyone's picture or narrative that describes what's happening or how it points towards a solution.

[BeaverFever]

On 1/15/2024 at 12:35 AM, CdnFox said:

While people don't like the economy it's pretty clear reading all that that every time hamas attacks isreal and isreal retaliates support for hamas goes up. in fact if hamas feels its "low in the polls" all it has to do is attack israel. This is 100 percent proof positive that the people support hamas's military attacks and terrorism.  If trudeau got us into a war we didn't agree with and our cities got bombed there is no universe where his support would go up is there. It's never happened in canada or america - unpopular wars get presidents and pm's fired.  So - end of day, they support the miliary attacks.

No that’s not how human beings work during war they always rally around the flag. That’s exactly what happened in the US after 9-11 and Republicans took full of advantage of it for their fraudulent Iraq invasion and a landslide 2004 election. People will always hate the attacker more than the person whose mismanagement or dishonesty might have provoked the attack - if they even are willing to believe they provoked the attack . If Trudeau “got us bombed” by ISIS or North Korea or something,  and now we’re at full scale war with ISI troops in the streets amd Trudeau leading rhe defenders, people would at least temporarily rally around Trudeau.   Provoking a war to gin up domestic support is the oldest trick in the book, and something that  Netanyahu’s Likud party and Hamas both have quite a long history of doing. . 

[BeaverFever]

On 1/15/2024 at 12:35 AM, CdnFox said:

Now they pay the price for that support and they're going to die in large numbers, and that's precisely what happens when you decide it's ok to kill your neighbours women and children without provocation or warning. And seeing as they refuse to live in peace, many of them may have to die in pieces.  Hopefully they'll make better choices next time

Unfortunately what you are proposing is a war crime as has been pointed out here many times. You cannot kill civilians as punishment for the actions of their government   And the “without provocation” is even a slippery slope since the conflict goes back generations and a Palestinian might argue that Israelis have been killing their women and children every day for decades  through harsh occupation, blockades etc so to only start the clock on Oct 7 and only punish Palestinians is unfair. 
 

 

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

No that’s not how human beings work during war they always rally around the flag.

THat is not remotely true.

Vietnam.

The gulf war 2.

quebec in ww 1 and 2.

a bunch of other examples - when a war is unpopular at home the people NEVER rally around it. 

11 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s exactly what happened in the US after 9-11

No, it isn't. Every single american wanted to go hurt bin laden and everyone sheltering him. That was not a war the people were against.

His war on iraq was MUCH less popular and many spoke out against it.

12 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

People will always hate the attacker more than the person whose mismanagement or dishonesty might have provoked the attack

History shows you're not correct.  The most you can say is sometimes the 'bad guy' can suppress the public from speaking out.

 

13 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

If Trudeau “got us bombed” by ISIS or North Korea or something,  and now we’re at full scale war with ISI troops in the streets amd Trudeau leading rhe defenders, people would at least temporarily rally around Trudeau.

Probably not. They'd be screaming at them to make peace. And even if they did support fighting back they woudln't be happy with trudeau.

 

Look - lets keep this simple. IF they support the actions of hamas for ANY reason, and they do, then they deserve to face the consequences. They deserve it. They should pay for what they support.  THere's no getting around it.

What is happening to them right now is what they've got coming and if they want it to end they should surrender and let hamas face the music for what they've done

Until then they get this. They deserve no less. Why on earth would they?