Hamas Attacks Israel

[marcus]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

This is bullshit. Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Genocide, the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race. The term, derived from the Greek genos (“race,” “tribe,” or “nation”) and the Latin cide (“killing”)"

Gaza is not a nation. Not an ethnicity. Not a race. 

Let's talk about international law and their definition of genocide:

UN Factsheet

You are welcome.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

Let's talk about international law and their definition of genocide:

UN Factsheet

You are welcome.

No let's not. I don't trust the UN. You can't just change the English language to suit your purpose. 

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

This is bullshit. Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Genocide, the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race. The term, derived from the Greek genos (“race,” “tribe,” or “nation”) and the Latin cide (“killing”)"

Gaza is not a nation. Not an ethnicity. Not a race. 

Well just for fun, lets say it was.

For it to be genocide, the target has to be the nation, ethnic group or race itself.

For example - if the specific GOAL of an attack were to be to kill civillians (as the attack on oct 7 for example) that MIGHT be considered genocidal. As the attack on oct 7 was.

But - if the target is military infrastructure and 10000 civvies are killed because they're in the way, not genocide.  The goal wasn't the destruction of the nation. 

ALSO - it's not genocide if you've declared war on the nation to go after the nation. That's the whole point of war - we're going to go beat on that nation till it surrenders. Israel Formally declared war.  The whole POINT in a war is to destroy the other nation until it surrenders.

Genocide is when you deliberately try to wipe out a people one way or another as your end goal and for no other reason than to do that. That's not happening here.  They are trying to destroy a terrorist group and force a quazi-country to surrender to secure their own safety and end an on going threat.  THAT'S LEGIT.

[sharkman]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:54 PM, marcus said:

It's SO strange seeing a group who once experienced genocide and persecution, is now doing it to others.

It's sickening to be frank.

That said, it's amazing to see some of the loudest voices against Israel's genocide are Jews from around the world.

 

Well, things are a little less cut and dried than you think…

https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2023/12/02/idf-finds-dozens-of-rockets-in-gaza-home-under-united-nations-boxes/

“Troops of the 7007th Reserve Battalion were searching a home in a neighborhood when they found a room full of boxes bearing the logo of the UN agency that supports Palestinian refugees.

Underneath the boxes, dozens of rockets, mortars and other explosives were found, the IDF says.

Separately, troops of the 414th combat intelligence collection unit operating in a home in northern Gaza found grenades, weapon parts and other military equipment inside a child’s bedroom, the IDF says.“

Hopefully you also know about the extensive tunnel system with command centres directly underneath Gaza hospitals?  With Hamas military FORCING people to stay in said hospitals to act as human shields?

Hey, Israel is certainly not perfect, but they weren’t the aggressor here.  And the people that hide under hospitals and hide military equipment in children’s bedroom are despicable.  If you can’t see that then your judgement is off.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by sharkman

[WestCanMan]

On 11/21/2023 at 4:40 PM, Nationalist said:

No let's not. I don't trust the UN. You can't just change the English language to suit your purpose. 

The UN made the definition of "genocide" so broad that they can call anything a genocide now.

Countries like Pakistan and Iran get to determine what constitutes a genocide now... 

[Nationalist]

12 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The UN made the definition of "genocide" so broad that they can call anything a genocide now.

Countries like Pakistan and Iran get to determine what constitutes a genocide now... 

Now there's a good idea...

[Army Guy]

An opinion from a Irian Muslim women, who supports a free Palestine, but adds her perspective about where the middle east is today, it is a good watch...

 

[Army Guy]

On 11/7/2023 at 4:02 AM, marcus said:

Haven't been here in a while.

My heart goes out to the 1600 Israeli civilians and the over 10,000 Palestinian civilians, many of them children who have been killed in the latest attacks.

For the first time, I am seeing a little more balance in perspectives when it comes to media. This is mostly because the mainstream media no longer has monopoly over which perspective gets out.

As much as the mainstream media and the western governments are trying to push that this started on October 7th, people now have access to more information through youtube, twitter, and at universities.

This started more than a century ago when Europeans countries wanted to remove Jews out of their countries and Zionism was born. The first waves of Jewish refugees were turned away from the UK, the US and most central European countries. After considering different locations around the world, including Argentina, Uganda, Morocco and a few other locations, it was decided that they'd create a homeland in Palestine. 

The problem with that decision was that the indigenous population didn't really have a say in this decision. Of course, colonialism was the norm back then and local populations in Asia and Africa were never consulted.

The population of Palestine in early 1900's was around 90% Palestinian Muslim, 8% Palestinian Christians and 2% Palestinian Jews, according to British census. Then the European Jews started arriving. Many European Jews didn't really want to go that land at first, but when United States past a law against allowing any more Jews to migrate to the U.S. in the 1920s, and eventually, when the holocaust happened, things changed rapidly. That's when the local Arab population started to become uncomfortable with the big wave of Jews coming into their land. 

The clashes started when the Israeli militias (terrorist groups as the British called them) in the 1940s, started attacking Palestinian Arabs and some British soldiers. The Irgun, one of these militia groups was led by Begin, who later became the first Israeli prime minister. 

 

 

Keep your condolences they mean nothing to the Israelis people...and where are you getting these numbers 10,000 killed most of them children, they come from the Palestinian authority.... you make it sound like the city is filled with nothing but children....nest time you see a video come out of what it like to live in Gaza start to notice how clean they look, how well dressed they are...i spent many days in a war zone and i can tell you you don't stay clean for very long...they are suppose to be starving , with out food or water....but propaganda can accomplish many things...like brainwashing westerners..

It was not just Europe and the Americas, that were kicking our Jews, based on religion, Canada sent back a ship full of Jews back to Nazi Germany to be slaughter in death camps,  but most Muslim countries were following suit as well, killing or deporting Jews by the thousands. Do I condone terrorist actives no i do not....but I hate when the world sits in their chairs and allows a group of people to be exterminated without standing up for all human rights...including Israelis...

Local Palestinian and Arab population were so uncomfortable they started to kill jews... something you seem to forgotten. British were targeted as well by refusing any jews into the area....Like were were they suppose to go now when the jews started to stand up for themselves they are labeled terrorist...funney the local Palestinian or Arabs some how became the victims here...when their hands were also covered in blood...

the question you forgot was where were they suppose to go.. a good number were deported several times before arriving in Israel Another problem with your statements is Israelis Jews were indigenous to the area, you said so yourself. The area was chosen becasue it was a vast open area with few little population less than 250,000 spread across Israel and what is called Palestine now. With thousands of jews already living is what was Palestine, the question became why not move there....

Palestinians and Arabs did not want Jews on any of their lands, but they sure were grateful when they got their share, huge cut outs of land...and still they did not want any Jews for neighbors so they agree to attack and kill them one day after they declare Israel a state...and have been defending that state ever day since...and somehow you have taken up a cause supporting terrorist....you didn't cheer for the Nazis to did you...whether your a racist or not is beside the point , but standing up for known terrorist group is the lowest point your can go down the evolutionary scale...

below is a list of countries that expelled Jews just becasue You can add US and Canada UK, with placing severe limitations on Jewish immigrant numbers...

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia

Edited December 12, 2023 by Army Guy

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Keep your condolences they mean nothing to the Israelis people...and where are you getting these numbers 10,000 killed most of them children, they come from the Palestinian authority.... you make it sound like the city is filled with nothing but children....nest time you see a video come out of what it like to live in Gaza start to notice how clean they look, how well dressed they are...i spent many days in a war zone and i can tell you you don't stay clean for very long...they are suppose to be starving , with out food or water....but propaganda can accomplish many things...like brainwashing westerners..

It was not just Europe and the Americas, that were kicking our Jews, based on religion, Canada sent back a ship full of Jews back to Nazi Germany to be slaughter in death camps,  but most Muslim countries were following suit as well, killing or deporting Jews by the thousands. Do I condone terrorist actives no i do not....but I hate when the world sits in their chairs and allows a group of people to be exterminated without standing up for all human rights...including Israelis...

Local Palestinian and Arab population were so uncomfortable they started to kill jews... something you seem to forgotten. British were targeted as well by refusing any jews into the area....Like were were they suppose to go now when the jews started to stand up for themselves they are labeled terrorist...funney the local Palestinian or Arabs some how became the victims here...when their hands were also covered in blood...

the question you forgot was where were they suppose to go.. a good number were deported several times before arriving in Israel Another problem with your statements is Israelis Jews were indigenous to the area, you said so yourself. The area was chosen becasue it was a vast open area with few little population less than 250,000 spread across Israel and what is called Palestine now. With thousands of jews already living is what was Palestine, the question became why not move there....

Palestinians and Arabs did not want Jews on any of their lands, but they sure were grateful when they got their share, huge cut outs of land...and still they did not want any Jews for neighbors so they agree to attack and kill them one day after they declare Israel a state...and have been defending that state ever day since...and somehow you have taken up a cause supporting terrorist....you didn't cheer for the Nazis to did you...whether your a racist or not is beside the point , but standing up for known terrorist group is the lowest point your can go down the evolutionary scale...

below is a list of countries that expelled Jews just becasue You can add US and Canada UK, with placing severe limitations on Jewish immigrant numbers...

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia

This happens to be true.

[BeaverFever]

Ok I’ve been relatively silent on this topic because it’s pretty much pointless to discuss its one of those highly polarized emotionally charged topics where people hold extreme positions, never modify their views, and therefore facts don’t matter. 

That said Here are some facts:

Oct 7 was a horrendous large scale terrorist attack but that’s not genocide. At the time people pointed out that proportionate to Israel’s population the death was the equivalent of 15 9/11 attacks. Well the Gaza death tolll which is now more than 20.000 is the proportional equivalent of 1,000 9/11 attacks. Fully 1% of Gaza’s population has been killed, many of them children, and 100% of the 2.3 million inhabitants have been displaced. To say that Hamas’s attack was genocide but that Israel’s response is entirely appropriate is a joke.  A key concept of the rules of warnis proportionality amd by amy measure nobody can argue that the civilian death toll in n Gaza has become proportional 
 

Furthermore half the ordinance Israel has dropped in Gaza has been unguided and some of the places they have attacked have been places that they said would be safe fo civilians such as locations in the south and the routes to get there. Recently Israel was forced to admit that their soldiers shot dead 3 Israeli hostages who had managed to escape their Hamas captors and who were only partially clothed and waving a white flag at Israeli troops. Not killed in crossfire, or any other such thing but rather misidentified as Palestinians and killed deliberately despite being unarmed and surrendering, evidence that Israeli soldiers are shooting unarmed civilians indiscriminately. Israel’s claim that they take the utmost care to safeguard Palestinian civilian lives is dubious at best. 
 

Lastly some of Israel’s goals and “legitimate military targets” are questionable. Remember under the Geneva Conventions civilian casualties must be proportionate and incidental to attacking legitimate targets. In other words you can not deliberately target civilians you can only be excused for deliberately killing civilians if you have a valid military target and even then you will judged according to proportionality. Intentionally killing a thousand civilians just to kill one enemy foot soldier would not be proportionate for example. October 7 doesn’t give Israel a blank cheque to indiscriminately kill as many civilians as they please without good reason. It’s one thing to bomb finite material such as rockets or mortar emplacements but any bombing of terrorists simply out of revenge for Oct 7 is less clear. Furthermore unlike rockets or mortars which are finite and can be destroyed, terrorism is an ideology that cannot be bombed out of existence. In fact civilian casualties only encourage terrorism.  So any Israeli claim that this death toll is justified because it will end terrorism is a joke.  The attack on Gaza is probably the most effective terrorist recruiting tool anyone could think of. 
 

Im not saying that none of Israel’s response is justified limited targeting airstrikes and special forces even some ground force invasion would be justified in eliminating Hamas but they’ve gone way too far and are victimizing the civilian population at large while Israeli officials make public statements like “It’s time to be cruel” that make clear their true intent. Fighting a legitimate war is not cruel. Nobody has ever described D-Day or Battle of Britain as “cruel”. We all know what politicians REALLY mean when they make statements like that. Collective punishment of the civilian population is a war crime, period.  

[BeaverFever]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:23 PM, sharkman said:

Well, things are a little less cut and dried than you think…

https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2023/12/02/idf-finds-dozens-of-rockets-in-gaza-home-under-united-nations-boxes/

“Troops of the 7007th Reserve Battalion were searching a home in a neighborhood when they found a room full of boxes bearing the logo of the UN agency that supports Palestinian refugees.

Underneath the boxes, dozens of rockets, mortars and other explosives were found, the IDF says.

Separately, troops of the 414th combat intelligence collection unit operating in a home in northern Gaza found grenades, weapon parts and other military equipment inside a child’s bedroom, the IDF says.“

Hopefully you also know about the extensive tunnel system with command centres directly underneath Gaza hospitals?  With Hamas military FORCING people to stay in said hospitals to act as human shields?

Hey, Israel is certainly not perfect, but they weren’t the aggressor here.  And the people that hide under hospitals and hide military equipment in children’s bedroom are despicable.  If you can’t see that then your judgement is off.

 

As a Putin supporter, can you explain why Putin become close with Hamas and openly allies itself with Iran, the state sponsor of Hamas?

[CdnFox]

19 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Ok I’ve been relatively silent on this topic because it’s pretty much pointless to discuss its one of those highly polarized emotionally charged topics where people hold extreme positions, never modify their views, and therefore facts don’t matter. 

That said Here are some facts:

Oct 7 was a horrendous large scale terrorist attack but that’s not genocide. At the time people pointed out that proportionate to Israel’s population the death was the equivalent of 15 9/11 attacks. Well the Gaza death tolll which is now more than 20.000 is the proportional equivalent of 1,000 9/11 attacks. Fully 1% of Gaza’s population has been killed, many of them children, and 100% of the 2.3 million inhabitants have been displaced. To say that Hamas’s attack was genocide but that Israel’s response is entirely appropriate is a joke.  A key concept of the rules of warnis proportionality amd by amy measure nobody can argue that the civilian death toll in n Gaza has become proportional 
 

Furthermore half the ordinance Israel has dropped in Gaza has been unguided and some of the places they have attacked have been places that they said would be safe fo civilians such as locations in the south and the routes to get there. Recently Israel was forced to admit that their soldiers shot dead 3 Israeli hostages who had managed to escape their Hamas captors and who were only partially clothed and waving a white flag at Israeli troops. Not killed in crossfire, or any other such thing but rather misidentified as Palestinians and killed deliberately despite being unarmed and surrendering, evidence that Israeli soldiers are shooting unarmed civilians indiscriminately. Israel’s claim that they take the utmost care to safeguard Palestinian civilian lives is dubious at best. 
 

Lastly some of Israel’s goals and “legitimate military targets” are questionable. Remember under the Geneva Conventions civilian casualties must be proportionate and incidental to attacking legitimate targets. In other words you can not deliberately target civilians you can only be excused for deliberately killing civilians if you have a valid military target and even then you will judged according to proportionality. Intentionally killing a thousand civilians just to kill one enemy foot soldier would not be proportionate for example. October 7 doesn’t give Israel a blank cheque to indiscriminately kill as many civilians as they please without good reason. It’s one thing to bomb finite material such as rockets or mortar emplacements but any bombing of terrorists simply out of revenge for Oct 7 is less clear. Furthermore unlike rockets or mortars which are finite and can be destroyed, terrorism is an ideology that cannot be bombed out of existence. In fact civilian casualties only encourage terrorism.  So any Israeli claim that this death toll is justified because it will end terrorism is a joke.  The attack on Gaza is probably the most effective terrorist recruiting tool anyone could think of. 
 

Im not saying that none of Israel’s response is justified limited targeting airstrikes and special forces even some ground force invasion would be justified in eliminating Hamas but they’ve gone way too far and are victimizing the civilian population at large while Israeli officials make public statements like “It’s time to be cruel” that make clear their true intent. Fighting a legitimate war is not cruel. Nobody has ever described D-Day or Battle of Britain as “cruel”. We all know what politicians REALLY mean when they make statements like that. Collective punishment of the civilian population is a war crime, period.  

The thing those on the left don't get is that there  is no 'proportional' response that makes sense.

What you propose is that because only 1500 isrealis were killed (or captured and presumed to likely be killed), then  that puts some sort of limit on how many palestinians the israelis should be allowed to kill in response.

It doesn't. The limit is ALL of them that are necessary to end that threat from happening again.  And thats not 'genocide' - that's just what's necessary to stop it happening again.  If that's 10 civillians fine. If that's 10,000 oh well.  If it's every single one of them and there's just no other way - well say something nice at the funeral.

Don't like it? Don't attack other countries like that.

There is no such thing as "SOME" of the response is justified.  They are justfied until the threat against their nation is ended, and traditionally in war that's when the other side surrenders.

This isn't tit for tat.  You don't get to say "ok so you killed 15 of our guys so that means you get to kill.... let me work it out... 34.2 of ours.  I guess we'll just cut one of their hands off".

Hamas can end all of this tomorrow by surrendering. Never forget - it started with them, they can finish it right now. This is their choice.

[Perspektiv]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:49 PM, BeaverFever said:

Fighting a legitimate war is not cruel.

Seriously?

War is by nature, cruel. Brutal, bloody and far to often, incredibly costly in both human lives and financially. Then there are the reverberations for generations.

You could follow all the laws, its irrelevant. Collateral damage can only be minimized. 

Agent Orange was considered legal to use, by the US.

By your standards, this being legitimate, remove the cruelty from its use in war.

Ignores the generations of children born with deformities and mental ailments due to its chemical composition.

War has always been horrific and cruel.

A lawful war just means more means will be undertaken to avoid innocent casualties, but does nothing to completely remove the risk as this is impossible.

That much more difficult in densely populated areas in Gaza.

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Seriously?

War is by nature, cruel. Brutal, bloody and far to often, incredibly costly in both human lives and financially. Then there are the reverberations for generations.

You could follow all the laws, its irrelevant. Collateral damage can only be minimized. 

Agent Orange was considered legal to use, by the US.

By your standards, this being legitimate, remove the cruelty from its use in war.

Ignores the generations of children born with deformities and mental ailments due to its chemical composition.

War has always been horrific and cruel.

A lawful war just means more means will be undertaken to avoid innocent casualties, but does nothing to completely remove the risk as this is impossible.

That much more difficult in densely populated areas in Gaza.

Wars are evil, nasty bloody things where civillians die by the bucketload, and while our modern attitudes try to minimze it nothing has really changed there.

I think video games have led people to think war means you push a few buttons, a few bad guys die, and it's all over.  They are horrible and tragic even when both sides play by the rules - and the gazan combatants are definitely not playing by the rules here.  It's going to be a bloodbath and there's no stopping that unless hamas surrenders.

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Seriously?

War is by nature, cruel. Brutal, bloody and far to often, incredibly costly in both human lives and financially. Then there are the reverberations for generations.

You could follow all the laws, its irrelevant. Collateral damage can only be minimized. 

Agent Orange was considered legal to use, by the US.

By your standards, this being legitimate, remove the cruelty from its use in war.

Ignores the generations of children born with deformities and mental ailments due to its chemical composition.

War has always been horrific and cruel.

A lawful war just means more means will be undertaken to avoid innocent casualties, but does nothing to completely remove the risk as this is impossible.

That much more difficult in densely populated areas in Gaza.

Nobody has ever described a just war as cruel. You’ve never heard Churchill or FDR or any other modern leader call for cruelty except may Bush-Cheney republicans after 9-11. War is callous but callousness is not cruelty as callousness is simply disregarding others’ feelings in favour of other considerations. Brutality is not even cruelty as brutality can be fully justified such as self-defence..  Cruelty is deliberately inflicting pain and suffering for the sole purpose of deriving pleasure and satisfaction from the other person’s suffering, it is sadism  

The Americans who used agent orange in Vietnam didn’t do it to be cruel. No US President said “let’s spray those people with AO because it’s time to be cruel!”  

 Even though individual soldiers w local officers conduct cruelty such as the My Lai massacre in Vietnam or the Haditha massacre in Iraq, those actions were denounced by political leaders as counter to their objectives. No president ever called for a campaign of cruelty or a mass child of civilians.  It was the opposite they claimed to be following the rules, to NOT being cruel and that acts of cruelty were the isolated exceptions that are against their values. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by BeaverFever

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Nobody has ever described a just war as cruel.

You have gone absolutely insane. 

Which war are you thinking of where people say it wasn't a cruel war.  You've lost your mind.

[Perspektiv]

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The Americans who used agent orange in Vietnam didn’t do it to be cruel.

Hell is paved with good intentions.

The fall out from this decision, has affected generations of people, children and families. 

This in itself, is the cruel side of war wielding itself. 

Okay, so the sitting president didn't order cruelty and didn't say mean things, so the long term consequences can be brushed aside?

 

 

[Nationalist]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:52 PM, CdnFox said:

You have gone absolutely insane. 

Which war are you thinking of where people say it wasn't a cruel war.  You've lost your mind.

Meh... @BeaverFever lives in an alternate reality. Too many afternoons watching The View.

Israel has opened the door to all sorts of nonsense. They may well wind up on the losing end of this. They had their chance and now they're just another cause for nerds to whine about.

'It so cruel!'

Israel may well now have the 2-state solution choked down their throats.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nationalist

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Meh... @BeaverFever lives in an alternate reality. Too many afternoons watching The View.

Israel has opened the door to all sorts of nonsense. They may well wind up on the losing end of this. They had their chance and now they're just another cause for nerds to whine about.

'It so cruel!'

Israel may well now have the 2-state solution choked down their throats.

I don't think they particularly hate the 2 state solution.  They were involved with negotiations to that effect for some time, and it was hamas's presence and their refusal to accept any solution that had israel still in existence that really ended that.

I think the bigger question will be security. I think israel is done with letting gaza be left alone to build missiles and such. I think they're going to demand to have a 'garrison' of some sort unless the UN can provide some force that will guarantee that they won't be tearing up drainage pipe to make missiles the moment their backs are turned.

[Nationalist]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I don't think they particularly hate the 2 state solution.  They were involved with negotiations to that effect for some time, and it was hamas's presence and their refusal to accept any solution that had israel still in existence that really ended that.

I think the bigger question will be security. I think israel is done with letting gaza be left alone to build missiles and such. I think they're going to demand to have a 'garrison' of some sort unless the UN can provide some force that will guarantee that they won't be tearing up drainage pipe to make missiles the moment their backs are turned.

IMO, no matter what Israel does now, it won't lead to lasting peace. 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

IMO, no matter what Israel does now, it won't lead to lasting peace. 

They could take off and nuke 'em from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure

Movie quotes aside, honestly it's hard to disagree. I suppose it's possible that the gazans have finally had it so bad that after this they will do anything to avoid another war and will start seriously pursuing a peaceful resolution. But that does seem unlikely.   I think in the long run peace comes when the Palestinians are gone, but hopefully that's not the case.

[Nationalist]

23 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

They could take off and nuke 'em from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure

Movie quotes aside, honestly it's hard to disagree. I suppose it's possible that the gazans have finally had it so bad that after this they will do anything to avoid another war and will start seriously pursuing a peaceful resolution. But that does seem unlikely.   I think in the long run peace comes when the Palestinians are gone, but hopefully that's not the case.

Yet...none of the Arab nations want them. Where would they go?

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Yet...none of the Arab nations want them. Where would they go?

Probably scattered about the globe.  And amusingly isreal might take some - lets not forget that they have muslims and Palestinian residents right now and even in their gov't.  But i think they'll hope the 'usual suspects' such as france and canada and germany etc will take a whollop of them.

[BeaverFever]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:52 PM, CdnFox said:

You have gone absolutely insane. 

Which war are you thinking of where people say it wasn't a cruel war.  You've lost your mind.

Nice try. Which war are you thinking of where a political leader called for cruelty or described their aide as being deliberately cruel or said cruelty was a good thing?  

NOBODY who supports a war describes it as cruel or unavoidable civilian casualties as cruel. 

[BeaverFever]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:02 PM, Perspektiv said:

Hell is paved with good intentions.

The fall out from this decision, has affected generations of people, children and families. 

This in itself, is the cruel side of war wielding itself. 

Okay, so the sitting president didn't order cruelty and didn't say mean things, so the long term consequences can be brushed aside?

 

 

As already said nobody who supports a just war describes themselves as being cruel. Nobody thinks someone defending themselves from an attacker is cruel. Nobody thinks D-Day was cruel except maybe anti-war activists. 
 

The word cruel has a meaning and it doesn’t means strong or brave or fierce or. And it sure as hell taking every precaution to  minimize unavoidable civilian casualties, in fact it means the opposite of that b.