Guest Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, blackbird said: There is no proof that these people are "destined for a painful and prolonged death". Just look at BC Sapper on here. He argues and demands he has the right, but there is no evidence he is destined for a painful and prolonged death. The health care system has many drugs to eliminate the pain of people. There is not proof that the ten thousand people a year to received MAID were destined for a painful and prolonged death. In the absence of proof that must be dismissed as false. So if there was proof they were "destined for a painful and prolonged death", you would be okay with it? That's something, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 minute ago, bcsapper said: So if there was proof they were "destined for a painful and prolonged death", you would be okay with it? That's something, I guess. NO I would not be okay with it. I was just pointing out the falsehood of the claim that is used to support MAID. As I said we have powerful drugs to eliminate pain. The pain claim is just another tool the so-called die with dignity groups use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, blackbird said: NO I would not be okay with it. I was just pointing out the falsehood of the claim that is used to support MAID. As I said we have powerful drugs to eliminate pain. The pain claim is just another tool the so-called die with dignity groups use. You say god decides. Did god also decide that people have to be kept alive doped out of their minds? Edited October 2, 2023 by Aristides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, blackbird said: There is no proof that these people are "destined for a painful and prolonged death". Just look at BC Sapper on here. He argues and demands he has the right, but there is no evidence he is destined for a painful and prolonged death. So you're denying death by diseases like ALS or Cancer are objectively unpleasant? Quote The health care system has many drugs to eliminate the pain of people. Speaks to my point about simply being sedated for the rest of your short life. The same drugs that are highly illegal for recreation are perfectly fine for keeping someone alive longer than, perhaps, they should be. It's weird how people of faith believe that people should live as long as possible even to subject people to medical intervention and drugs when there could be a much better existence beyond death. Quote There is not proof that the ten thousand people a year who received MAID were destined for a painful and prolonged death. In the absence of proof that must be dismissed as false. People were living out their lives normally when MAID was started. So present your own evidence that scores of people were pressured to end their lives early. Quote The only reason it was brought in was because of people like BC Sapper who demand to have "right to choose" MAID even though there is no proof of any painful prolonged suffering. It was brought in because of pressures from groups and individuals who demanded the so-called right to "die with dignity" which is a false propaganda claim. These are powerful liberal political groups that manipulated government. That's a worthwhile debate. And I mentioned it in an earlier post. People who aren't terminally ill probably shouldn't look to the government to help them off themselves. But that doesn't mean MAID isn't useful to someone who is terminally ill an incapable of ending their own lives. Edited October 2, 2023 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, Aristides said: You say god decides. Did god also decide that people have to be kept alive doped out of their minds? quote Some people question whether or not it is appropriate for a Christian to take pain medication, since it may affect perception, alter awareness, influence consciousness, or cause physical addiction. We must remember that the Bible does not expressly forbid medicine. Medications are not inherently evil. In fact, the Bible speaks of Timothy’s need to “use a little wine” for his illness (1 Timothy 5:23). And Luke was a doctor (Colossians 4:14). So there is nothing wrong with the use of medicine; it is the abuse that is wrong and what the Bible would condemn. There is a world of difference between someone who, through overindulgence or misapplication, abuses prescription medication and someone who has a serious illness and takes the medication a doctor prescribes for the relief of symptoms. In the first case, there is an idolatrous greed or lust for a physical substance that results in his breaking the law and potentially causing harm to himself and others; in the second, the person is making use of advances in science and, under a doctor’s direction, lawfully alleviates unpleasant symptoms through the appropriate use of medication. unquote Is it wrong to take pain medication? | GotQuestions.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 13 minutes ago, Boges said: So you're denying death by diseases like ALS or Cancer are objectively unpleasant? No I am not denying that. I just believe there are pain relief medications and most importantly, I believe man does not have the right to end someone's life under the heading of mercy killing. Only God can end life. To actively end human life for mercy reasons is contrary to God's law against killing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 minute ago, blackbird said: No I am not denying that. I just believe there are pain relief medications and most importantly, I believe man does not have the right to end someone's life under the heading of mercy killing. Only God can end life. To actively end human life for mercy reasons is contrary to God's law against killing. Then God would be a sadist. For example, would it be a mortal sin to shot yourself in the head rather than burn alive. Were the people whom jump from the Twin Towers on 911 committing a mortal singe because God has decided they must either be burned alive or crushed under the weight of a building. Regardless the idea of a mercy killing being a "sin" should not play a factory in the legality of MAID. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 16 minutes ago, Boges said: It's weird how people of faith believe that people should live as long as possible even to subject people to medical intervention and drugs when there could be a much better existence beyond death. No, I don't believe in subjecting people to medical intervention or drugs to simply keep them alive if their situation is such that it is not warranted. Doctors regularly remove extraordinary life supports when the situation is such that it is doing more harm than good. This is not the same as actively ending someone's life by giving medicines to kill the person. We need to understand the difference. 2 minutes ago, Boges said: Regardless the idea of a mercy killing being a "sin" should not play a factory in the legality of MAID. I have already explained why MAID is wrong. It is actively killing a person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 12 minutes ago, blackbird said: quote Some people question whether or not it is appropriate for a Christian to take pain medication, since it may affect perception, alter awareness, influence consciousness, or cause physical addiction. We must remember that the Bible does not expressly forbid medicine. Medications are not inherently evil. In fact, the Bible speaks of Timothy’s need to “use a little wine” for his illness (1 Timothy 5:23). And Luke was a doctor (Colossians 4:14). So there is nothing wrong with the use of medicine; it is the abuse that is wrong and what the Bible would condemn. There is a world of difference between someone who, through overindulgence or misapplication, abuses prescription medication and someone who has a serious illness and takes the medication a doctor prescribes for the relief of symptoms. In the first case, there is an idolatrous greed or lust for a physical substance that results in his breaking the law and potentially causing harm to himself and others; in the second, the person is making use of advances in science and, under a doctor’s direction, lawfully alleviates unpleasant symptoms through the appropriate use of medication. unquote Is it wrong to take pain medication? | GotQuestions.org Your god is your problem, not anyone else's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Aristides said: Your god is your problem, not anyone else's. You are the one who asked if drugs can be used to keep people doped up and I simply answered your question. So all you've got is another comment about God being my problem. Edited October 2, 2023 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Aristides said: Your god is your problem, not anyone else's. So you asked a question and I answered but you still don't accept the answer. Nothing anyone says means a thing to you. You are not here to discuss anything. Edited October 2, 2023 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 If you wish a slow and painful death, you are free to choose that. So long as no one else is choosing it for you, there is no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 34 minutes ago, blackbird said: You are the one who asked if drugs can be used to keep people doped up and I simply answered your question. So all you've got is another comment about God being my problem. Your god has no business being someone else's problem unless it is their choice. 49 minutes ago, blackbird said: No I am not denying that. I just believe there are pain relief medications and most importantly, I believe man does not have the right to end someone's life under the heading of mercy killing. Only God can end life. To actively end human life for mercy reasons is contrary to God's law against killing. So why are you in favour of capital punishment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 hour ago, blackbird said: NO I would not be okay with it. I was just pointing out the falsehood of the claim that is used to support MAID. As I said we have powerful drugs to eliminate pain. The pain claim is just another tool the so-called die with dignity groups use. Thats the point, your opinion does not matter when it comes to someone's life, your suggesting that living in a drug induced state is living life but it is not, i don't think this is what god had in mind... It is up to that person to do what he or she wants with their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, Army Guy said: i don't think this is what god had in mind... salvation is not by acts, but by faith alone For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God ; Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. ~ Epheisans 2 8-9 KJV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: Thats the point, your opinion does not matter when it comes to someone's life, your suggesting that living in a drug induced state is living life but it is not, i don't think this is what god had in mind... It is up to that person to do what he or she wants with their life. I disagree. God has created us and we belong to him. Taking one's own life is contrary to what God intends for us. I am not saying suffering is a desirable thing, but sometimes we have suffering in this life because it is an imperfect world we live in. Sometimes people do suffer when they approach the end. I don't deny that. We need to make them as comfortable as possible to the end. We can be a good witness for God by following his commands which includes respecting the sanctity of life and just living our life until he takes us. By taking MAID we are not respecting God or his commandments which include "thou shalt not kill". It demeans the sanctity of life. Man has no business killing someone supposedly for mercy. If pain killers help one, there is nothing wrong with that. But suicide or MAID is not the answer. Edited October 2, 2023 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Aristides said: Your god has no business being someone else's problem unless it is their choice. So why are you in favour of capital punishment? God is the God of everyone. We are all part of the country and government that made the MAID law. Therefore we all have a voice on the subject and a responsibility to speak out against evil. MAID is the essence of evil. I have already explained capital punishment on the thread under that subject. It is a matter of justice, which you don't seem to understand at all. Why is it ok to kill 100,000 unborn babies a year by abortion, kill people who have committed no crime by lethal injection, but wrong to use capital punishment for murderers of police officers who risk their lives to protect you? Edited October 2, 2023 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, blackbird said: I have already explained that on the thread under that subject. It is a matter of justice, which you don't seem to understand at all. Why is it ok to kill 100,000 unborn babies a year by abortion, kill people who have committed no crime by lethal injection, but wrong to use capital punishment for murderers of police officers who risk their lives to protect you? Ooh, ooh, don't tell me! I know this one... Is it because the first two are a choice and the third isn't? Do I win a prize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, blackbird said: God is the God of everyone. We are all part of the country and government that made the MAID law. Therefore we all have a voice on the subject and a responsibility to speak out against evil. MAID is the essence of evil. I have already explained capital punishment on the thread under that subject. It is a matter of justice, which you don't seem to understand at all. Why is it ok to kill 100,000 unborn babies a year by abortion, kill people who have committed no crime by lethal injection, but wrong to use capital punishment for murderers of police officers who risk their lives to protect you? Only in your head and you do not get to rule other peoples lives according to what you think your god intended. We do not live in a theocracy, Christian or otherwise. If you like them so much, move to Iran. Yes you did explain capital punishment. Blackbird's god says killing is wrong until blackbird justifies it on his own terms. People are choosing to die on their own terms. If that offends you, that's your problem, not theirs. Edited October 2, 2023 by Aristides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Boges said: So you're denying death by diseases like ALS or Cancer are objectively unpleasant? Speaks to my point about simply being sedated for the rest of your short life. The same drugs that are highly illegal for recreation are perfectly fine for keeping someone alive longer than, perhaps, they should be. It's weird how people of faith believe that people should live as long as possible even to subject people to medical intervention and drugs when there could be a much better existence beyond death. So present your own evidence that scores of people were pressured to end their lives early. That's a worthwhile debate. And I mentioned it in an earlier post. People who aren't terminally ill probably shouldn't look to the government to help them off themselves. But that doesn't mean MAID isn't useful to someone who is terminally ill an incapable of ending their own lives. You don’t know the theology on euthanasia. The Church doesn’t support active euthanasia, killing somebody. It accepts passive euthanasia, letting someone die naturally without life support where this is the wish of the dying. Edited October 2, 2023 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: You don’t know the theology on euthanasia. The Church doesn’t support active euthanasia, killing somebody. It accepts passive euthanasia, letting someone die naturally without life support where this is the wish of the dying. Does the Church support saving the life of someone who wishes it, using life support, even if it's obvious God wants them dead? What kind of bizarro church is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Does the Church support saving the life of someone who wishes it, using life support, even if it's obvious God wants them dead? Hospitals use life support equipment to save people who are not brain dead. Nobody opposes that. If a person is brain dead, doctors may decide to remove the life support equipment. Not sure what you mean by "God wants them dead". Can you explain? I would not assume God wants anyone dead. Edited October 3, 2023 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, blackbird said: Hospitals use life support equipment to save people who are not brain dead. Nobody opposes that. If a person is brain dead, doctors may decide to remove the life support equipment. Not sure what you mean by "God wants them dead". Rubbish, doctors and hospitals save lives all the time. Playing God! If someone gets run over by a bus, or loses an important bit in a sawmill accident, it's obvious some God or other has it in for them, right? (Relax, I'm not saying it's your God, necessarily) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Rubbish, doctors and hospitals save lives all the time. Playing God! If someone gets run over by a bus, or loses an important bit in a sawmill accident, it's obvious some God or other has it in for them, right? (Relax, I'm not saying it's your God, necessarily) Where did I say or suggest doctors and hospital do not save lives all the time? Of course they do. I simply said sometimes, if a patient is brain dead and there is no hope for recovery, hospitals decide, in consultation with close relatives, to disconnect life support systems because there is nothing else they can do for the patient. I don't believe God has it in for someone who is seriously injured in an accident. Edited October 3, 2023 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 4 minutes ago, blackbird said: I don't believe God has it in for someone who is seriously injured in an accident. Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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