Medical assistance in dying is no solution

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Awww muffin - got called out for your bullshit so all you've got left is name calling.  What a pathetic loser. It's low-iq liberals like you that give us nazi's in the house of commons.

? God you're predictable.  As for the Nazi comment, see my last answer to Blackbird.

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Four posts later.  After you spent all that effort avoiding the question and whining that even asking a simple and reasonable question like that was "FORCING YOU TO GIVE UP A SACRED BELIEF THAT YOU"VE HELD DEAR ALL YOUR LIFE!!!! Snif! (dramatic pose).

And it's not even an answer.  It's an excuse as to why you don't want to answer followed by my answer.

Sigh.   I don't know why i give you losers the benefit of the doubt and pretend you have a brain or an honest bone in your body.

If people want to know why we need limits on maid, why we need laws to protect transgender kids form teachers, and why social experiments like 'safe supply' fail so badly, a 2 minute conversation with your kind answers the question nicely.  Maybe you should ask yourself why you were so frightened that you couldn't address a simple question like that

Okay, I'm going give you the benefit of the doubt here.  It sounds like you think I didn't answer your question, here:

 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

so how do you circle that square?  How do you prevent people from being pressured into maid by others as we saw with the vets, or by denial of services ,  and yet stay out of people's decision making process?  kinda feels like you can't eat your cake and have it

 

If you can tell me how agreeing with you that there should be some kind of oversight to try and ensure it doesn't happen, and beyond that I don't care, isn't answering your question I'll take another stab at it.

Perhaps then you can answer mine, about whether or not you be on board with full MAID rights for everyone if that oversight was in place.

Do try and post without the foam this time.

[Aristides]

Interesting how all these free dums people are so hot to control other peoples choices.

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Rubbish.   You want people to suffer unnecessarily so you can feel good about yourself.

I'll ask you the same question I asked CdnFox.  If there was no issue with people being pressured, would you be fully on board with offering people the choice?

No.  It’s murder.  If you want to do yourself in, that’s your funeral.  

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No.  It’s murder.  If you want to do yourself in, that’s your funeral.  

Well, I disagree, of course, but at least you're honest.  I find your willingness to let other people suffer to suit your own sensibilities to be completely abhorrent.

[Zeitgeist]

29 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, I disagree, of course, but at least you're honest.  I find your willingness to let other people suffer to suit your own sensibilities to be completely abhorrent.

No.  If you want to kill yourself, that’s on you.  Don’t make others co-conspirators in your murder, which is what suicide is.  Yes, I understand that suicide may be seem preferable to living for some, but like the trans issue, once it becomes totally no preblemo, it’s a quick leap to pressuring people to commit suicide “”humanely”.  It becomes a viable alternative to treatment and real healthcare.  It’s already happening. I don’t judge anyone who commits suicide, but involving the state and other people is not really suicide.  I don’t want to be complicit or pay for it.  You do you.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Aristides]

The mother of a good friend of my daughters was horribly injured when her vehicle was hit by a semi on the Coquihalla connector. She barely survived and was so badly injured she was never able to leave the hospital and in constant pain. Eventually she applied for MAID and it was granted. You would have left her suffering and pumped full of opioids to kill the pain for the rest of what life she had left. 

And yet you think yourself ethical and compassionate and helping her is murder..

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No.  If you want to kill yourself, that’s on you.  Don’t make others co-conspirators in your murder, which is what suicide is.  Yes, I understand that suicide may be seem preferable to living for some, but like the trans issue, once it becomes totally no preblemo, it’s a quick leap to pressuring people to commit suicide “”humanely”.  It becomes a viable alternative to treatment and real healthcare.  It’s already happening. I don’t judge anyone who commits suicide, but involving the state and other people is not really suicide.  I don’t want to be complicit or pay for it.  You do you.

Ah, suicide is murder.  Do I detect a God bothering angle?

You don't have to be complicit, but I want you to pay for it.  I don't get to decide what my taxes re used for so neither should you.

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, blackbird said:

 What can we do?

....We need to restore our Canadian reputation for compassion."

Did you see that post the other day where it was pointed out how and when $47 (US) trillion worth of productivity gains were sucked up into the ether by the wealthiest 1% of society the last 50 years or so?

It happened when the 1% said screw compassion and paying a fair wage for an honest days work, compassion wasn't getting them anywhere as fast as they apparently needed.

Maybe they could see this capitalizing, financializing over-exploited world coming to an end more clearly from their vantage point and figured they better fatten up for the lean times ahead.

The poor souls are probably terrified.

Anyway, it occurred to me that $47 trillion probably would have translated into a lot more compassion left to share these last 50 years or so.

I was never raised to believe money could buy me happiness just that it would make life easier to bear.

[blackbird]

18 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Did you see that post the other day where it was pointed out how and when $47 (US) trillion worth of productivity gains were sucked up into the ether by the wealthiest 1% of society the last 50 years or so?

It happened when the 1% said screw compassion and paying a fair wage for an honest days work, compassion wasn't getting them anywhere as fast as they apparently needed.

Maybe they could see this capitalizing, financializing over-exploited world coming to an end more clearly from their vantage point and figured they better fatten up for the lean times ahead.

The poor souls are probably terrified.

Anyway, it occurred to me that $47 trillion probably would have translated into a lot more compassion left to share these last 50 years or so.

I was never raised to believe money could buy me happiness just that it would make life easier to bear.

That 47 trillion is probably all invested in various corporations that create millions of jobs.  So your view is flawed.  If you took all that money away, you would be shutting down all corporations and nobody would have a job.  What good would that do?  You would have millions of people starving with nothing.  Capitalism is private enterprise where people with lots of money invest it which in turn creates millions of jobs for everyone.  A state controlled system of Communism where nobody has much wealth would mean no private corporations and the poverty would be spread around equally to everyone.  The USSR tried that and that's what happened.  Only the privileged Communist leaders had special privileges and some prosperity.  Everyone else was in the poorhouse.  Your simplistic view of the world is completely flawed.

Edited October 1, 2023 by blackbird

[Aristides]

We do not have to consider what the Bible has to say, we have freedom of religion and freedom of choice.

I find it interesting that it is so many of the anti vax, my body my choice crowd  trying to control the choices of others. As long as it is someone else who is suffering. Right?

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Ah, suicide is murder.  Do I detect a God bothering angle?

It's not a choice when people are ignorant and feel pressured into choosing MAID for any of various reasons.

You need to consider what the Bible has to say.  God owns your bodies whether you believe it or not.  Only God has the right to decide when human life ends.  You should respect that and quit trying to play God.

There are lots of reasons why you should believe the Bible.

"The internal evidence of Scripture’s veracity provides many compelling arguments for why one should believe the Bible. First, the unique message of the Bible sets it apart from other religious texts. The Bible, for instance, teaches that mankind is inherently sinful and deserving of eternal death. If man were responsible for the content of the Bible, the view of humanity would not be so dark—we tend to make ourselves look good. The Bible also teaches that humans can do nothing of themselves to remedy their natural state. This, too, goes against human pride."

Why should I believe the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Edited October 1, 2023 by blackbird

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

We do not have to consider what the Bible has to say, we have freedom of religion and freedom of choice.

I find it interesting that it is so many of the anti vax, my body my choice crowd  trying to control the choices of others. As long as it is someone else who is suffering. Right?

There are many people who are pro vax, such as myself, who believe freedom of choice does not include taking a human life or one's own life as in MAID.  Historically our laws are based on Judeo-Christian society and thinking.  That's why we have laws against killing and stealing, etc.  Why does Canada have to down the Nazi road of euthanasia?  Probably because it saves a lot of money that government would have to otherwise spend on caring for people.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

The mother of a good friend of my daughters was horribly injured when her vehicle was hit by a semi on the Coquihalla connector. She barely survived and was so badly injured she was never able to leave the hospital and in constant pain. Eventually she applied for MAID and it was granted. You would have left her suffering and pumped full of opioids to kill the pain for the rest of what life she had left. 

And yet you think yourself ethical and compassionate and helping her is murder..

Sometimes, people in serious medical condition, when there is no hope of recovery, have their extraordinary support systems removed which ends their life.  This is not considered as murder.  The medical profession does this all the time.  That is totally different than injecting something into a person to kill them.  That is murder.  Man should not be actively killing people.

Edited October 1, 2023 by blackbird

[Aristides]

14 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There are many people who are pro vax, such as myself, who believe freedom of choice does not include taking a human life or one's own life as in MAID.  Historically our laws are based on Judeo-Christian society and thinking.  That's why we have laws against killing and stealing, etc.  Why does Canada have to down the Nazi road of euthanasia?  Probably because it saves a lot of money that government would have to otherwise spend on caring for people.

You make your choices and leave other's choices to them. Their choice doesn't affect you or anyone else.

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Sometimes, people in serious medical condition, when there is no hope of recovery, have their extraordinary support systems removed which ends their life.  This is not considered as murder.  The medical profession does this all the time.  That is totally different than injecting something into a person to kill them.  That is murder.  Man should not be actively killing people.

As long as it is someone else who is suffering, it is your job to make sure it continues.

 

Aren't you the guy who wants to bring capital punishment back? Hypocrite.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Aristides

[BeaverFever]

Many feel it’s the best solution for them and that’s all that matters. Yes there are moral/ethical dilemmas associated with allowing people this option but there are equally valid and concerning dilemmas associated with NOT allowing this option and forcing people to suffer unimaginably against their will. 

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You make your choices and leave other's choices to them. Their choice doesn't affect you or anyone else

There is no such thing as absolute freedom to do whatever you want.  You do not have freedom to kill someone you don't like.  Neither should the state be playing God and killing people.

4 minutes ago, Aristides said:

As long as it is someone else who is suffering, it is your job to make sure it continues.

Now you are lying.  I never said that.  I said the medical profession removes extraordinary life supports from people in certain circumstances if the situation warrants it.

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Many feel it’s the best solution for them and that’s all that matters. Yes there are moral/ethical dilemmas associated with allowing people this option but there are equally valid and concerning dilemmas associated with NOT allowing this option and forcing people to suffer unimaginably against their will. 

You assume everyone who applies for MAID will suffer unimaginably, which is just an assumption and is not factual.  The medical profession has many medications they can give people and not everyone applying for MAID is suffering.  So it is a kind of myth and disinformation.  There are all kinds of reasons why people apply for MAID.

[Zeitgeist]

Bottom line is it cheapens life and desensitizes us to the value, many would say sacredness, of life.  

Edited October 1, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Aristides]

22 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There is no such thing as absolute freedom to do whatever you want.  You do not have freedom to kill someone you don't like.  Neither should the state be playing God and killing people.

 

MAID is not killing someone you don't like.

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Now you are lying.  I never said that.  I said the medical profession removes extraordinary life supports from people in certain circumstances if the situation warrants it.

 

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They are putting their lives on the line in a difficult job and we need to do everything possible to protect them.  Capital punishment for killing them might go a good way to helping them.  Obviously the existing lenient system is not working.  

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I simply believe it should be a part of a just criminal justice system.  It's as simple as that.  

 

You aren't anti killing people, you just want to decide who should be killed.

14 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Bottom line is it cheapens life and desensitizes us to the value, many would say sacredness, of life.  

Yes, as long as it is someone else who is suffering you can continue to preach.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Aristides

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Nexii said:

Most Canadians were for MAID in its first iteration. Which was for people who were actually dying of horrible diseases. If you've had a family member die to dementia/Alzheimers it really changes your perspective.

It's gone off the rails though unfortunately. Mental illness should not be a qualifier given the horrible ethical history of psychology. Being gay was once considered a mental illness. Being trans still is (kind of).

Allowing mental illness to make someone eligible for MAID pushes in a pretty misunderstood and poorly thought out direction I think.

Can the conundrum of a person unable to make their own choice due to the loss of mental faculties do so in a living will written and notarized well beforehand when they're in a sound frame of mind?

Edited October 1, 2023 by eyeball

[Aristides]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Allowing mental illness to make someone eligible for MAID pushes in a pretty misunderstood and poorly thought out direction I think.

Can the conundrum of a person unable to make their own choice due to the loss of mental faculties do so in a living will written and notarized well beforehand when they're in a sound frame of mind?

I'm not comfortable with this part either but I don't really know enough about mental illness to have an informed opinion.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Aristides

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Aren't you the guy who wants to bring capital punishment back? Hypocrite.

So you can't see the difference between euthanasia and capital punishment for the murder of a police officer?  That is sad.

Euthanasia or MAID is killing someone who has committed no crime and capital punishment for killing a police officer is justice.  You should understand the difference.

[Aristides]

21 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So you can't see the difference between euthanasia and capital punishment for the murder of a police officer?  That is sad.

Euthanasia or MAID is killing someone who has committed no crime and capital punishment for killing a police officer is justice.  You should understand the difference.

MAID is allowing someone to die with dignity on their own terms.  NOT YOURS.

My son is a 20 year police officer. I have plenty of issues with our bail, parole and sentencing system but I am still anti capital punishment because I think it is barbaric.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Aristides

[Guest]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

You need to consider what the Bible has to say. 

No, I really don't.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

There is no such thing as absolute freedom to do whatever you want.  You do not have freedom to kill someone you don't like.  Neither should the state be playing God and killing people.

What about the state playing "God" and curing someone?