Medical assistance in dying is no solution

[blackbird]

This article raises some good points that Canadians need to consider.

"Many Canadians living on the margins of society do not have access to the services they need like palliative care, mental health services, and support for people with disabilities. Their needs can be as basic as lack of housing, food, companionship and financial support. Without access to quality care and resources that would meet their basic needs, their options become limited, and without options, there are no choices.  

At the same time, access to MAiD has been expanded in Canada since its introduction in 2016. In March 2021, the federal government passed revised legislation that changed the eligibility criteria and procedural safeguards for MAiD. The new law grants Canadians with chronic illness or disability, who are not terminally ill, the right to seek MAiD.  

When they are at their most vulnerable, people may choose MAiD if they don't have suitable options. 

We have a social responsibility to help people live their lives on their own terms. When Canadians are at their most vulnerable, they should be provided with meaningful options to live before they are provided with options to die.  

What can we do?

Everyone has a role to play. Provincial governments need to enhance their current financial and program commitments to ensure all Canadians can live with dignity. We can all reach out to people we know in our area to provide a helping hand. Churches, NGOs and community groups can equip and coordinate these efforts. We need to restore our Canadian reputation for compassion."

No Options, No Choice (nooptionsnochoice.com)

MAID is a very tragic law that the government brought in.  It is a kind of genocide of tens of thousands of people per year in Canada.  It should be scrapped.  It is no solution to anything.

[Canadian_Cavalier]

It's a tragedy to the point that "seek Canadian Healthcare" has become a minced oath for "k1ll yours3lf".

Canada has been embarrassing itself on the world stage, a lot.

[Guest]

I completely agree that neither of you should be forced to avail yourselves of MAID if you don't want to.  The very idea!

If somebody does want to avail themselves of MAID though, the idea that either of you should have a say in the matter is as reprehensible as the idea you should be forced to use it yourselves.

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I completely agree that neither of you should be forced to avail yourselves of MAID if you don't want to.  The very idea!

If somebody does want to avail themselves of MAID though, the idea that either of you should have a say in the matter is as reprehensible as the idea you should be forced to use it yourselves.

so how do you circle that square?  How do you prevent people from being pressured into maid by others as we saw with the vets, or by denial of services ,  and yet stay out of people's decision making process?  kinda feels like you can't eat your cake and have it

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

so how do you circle that square?  How do you prevent people from being pressured into maid by others as we saw with the vets, or by denial of services ,  and yet stay out of people's decision making process?  kinda feels like you can't eat your cake and have it

Pressured?  Nobody should be pressured into anything.  I'm talking about choice.  People should be made aware of their options, but nobody should be pressured into making a choice they would not make otherwise. 

If you want to raise taxes for the improvement of government services I'm completely on board with that.

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by bcsapper
Stupid merging of answers...

[suds]

7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Pressured?  Nobody should be pressured into anything.  I'm talking about choice.  People should be made aware of their options, but nobody should be pressured into making a choice they would not make otherwise. 

If you want to raise taxes for the improvement of government services I'm completely on board with that.

 

 

 

Absolutely. I'm personally glad that choice is available whenever the time comes.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, suds said:

Absolutely. I'm personally glad that choice is available whenever the time comes.

Exactly.  The idea that somebody, you or I or anyone else, should be forced to suffer needlessly because our choice would offend someone else's sensibilities (or even more ghastly, offend their religious beliefs) is odious.

[suds]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Exactly.  The idea that somebody, you or I or anyone else, should be forced to suffer needlessly because our choice would offend someone else's sensibilities (or even more ghastly, offend their religious beliefs) is odious.

Yep.

[CdnFox]

45 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Pressured?  Nobody should be pressured into anything.  I'm talking about choice.  People should be made aware of their options, but nobody should be pressured into making a choice they would not make otherwise.

 

But they are.  So - again, how do you address that without external oversight.

It's nice to SAY 'people should have choice' but how do you deal with the reality here?

[Zeitgeist]

Canada is quickly turning into a sick and evil country.  Our universal healthcare system has become a cut rate death factory mandated by the government and courts against the constitutionally protected right to freedom of religion and conscience.  The Hippocratic Oath is abandoned in Canada.  The world is noting the twisted morality of Canada’s policies on a range of issues from gender ideology to hard drug use to zero limitations on abortion to active euthanasia.  The government enables and the Catholic Church is collapsing in silence.  Trudeau’s Canada is nihilistic and lost.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-canadian-culture-of-death-brooks-no-dissent/amp/

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But they are.  So - again, how do you address that without external oversight.

It's nice to SAY 'people should have choice' but how do you deal with the reality here?

I don't understand your point.  We are both agreed that people should not be pressured into MAID.  

I'm of the opinion that the choice should be freely available.  Are you agreed that it should be if pressure was not an issue?

What's your view of my view that perhaps we should be spending more money on government services?  Perhaps the external oversight you speak of?

[CdnFox]

Just now, bcsapper said:

I don't understand your point. 

You don't? really?

Quote

We are both agreed that people should not be pressured into MAID.

Sure - but they are. 

Quote

I'm of the opinion that the choice should be freely available.  Are you agreed that it should be if pressure was not an issue?

I believe it should be a choice but that's Not relevant - it IS an issue.  So we have to deal with that.

I'm asking how YOU would deal with it and you're dodging the question and pretending you don't understand it, which we both know isn't true.  Whats the problem here?  Why are you being weird about answering a pretty simple question?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

You don't? really?

Right.  You seem to think I should change a deeply held opinion because you've heard some people are being pressured into MAID.  That seems very strange to me.  I wouldn't deny women the right an abortion if I heard some women were being pressured to have one. 

 

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Sure - but they are. 

Okay.  What should be done about that without denying MAID to those who want it?

 

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I believe it should be a choice but that's Not relevant - it IS an issue.  So we have to deal with that.

I'm asking how YOU would deal with it and you're dodging the question and pretending you don't understand it, which we both know isn't true.  Whats the problem here?  Why are you being weird about answering a pretty simple question?

I'm not dodging the question.  It's not an issue to me.  I have no idea of the solution, beyond the oversight you suggested in your previous post, which I am all in favour of.  It does not affect my view. 

You, on the other hand, are dodging the question of whether or not people should have the right to MAID by using the pressure issue to avoid it.

If some way was found to stop people being pressured, would you support it?

Do you have any evidence of how prevalent such pressure being applied is, by the way?  I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen, but I would be curious to see how much it does happen, and what the authorities response was.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is quickly turning into a sick and evil country.  Our universal healthcare system has become a cut rate death factory mandated by the government and courts against the constitutionally protected right to freedom of religion and conscience.  The Hippocratic Oath is abandoned in Canada.  The world is noting the twisted morality of Canada’s policies on a range of issues from gender ideology to hard drug use to zero limitations on abortion to active euthanasia.  The government enables and the Catholic Church is collapsing in silence.  Trudeau’s Canada is nihilistic and lost.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-canadian-culture-of-death-brooks-no-dissent/amp/

I suggest you don't avail yourself of MAID yourself, and keep your views to yourself when anyone else wants to.

Win-Win.

Catholic Church?  Give me a break!

[Zeitgeist]

29 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I suggest you don't avail yourself of MAID yourself, and keep your views to yourself when anyone else wants to.

Win-Win.

Catholic Church?  Give me a break!

You’re foolish.  MAID is fast going the way of Nazi level euthanazing of the mentally “unfit”, elderly whose care is turned over to powers of attorney or who are giving into family pressure, and other evils.  You’re getting old I imagine and should care, but you’re foolish.

The article I cited explicitly states that governments and courts are forcing the hands of doctors and institutions to violate their consciences.  Canada does this kind of thing and the Americans and Brits don’t, not to the same degree.   Why?   Because our government is no longer ethics based.  It’s expedient financially to kill people rather than treat them.  

Edited September 30, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re foolish.  MAID is fast going the way of Nazi level euthanazing of the mentally “unfit”, elderly whose care is turned over to powers of attorney or who are giving into family pressure, and other evils.  You’re getting old I imagine and should care, but you’re foolish.

The article I cited explicitly states that governments and courts are forcing the hands of doctors and institutions to violate their consciences.  Canada does this kind of thing and the Americans and Brits don’t, not to the same degree.   Why?   Because our government is no longer ethics based.  It’s expedient financially to kill people rather than treat them.  

Rubbish.   You want people to suffer unnecessarily so you can feel good about yourself.

I'll ask you the same question I asked CdnFox.  If there was no issue with people being pressured, would you be fully on board with offering people the choice?

Edited September 30, 2023 by bcsapper

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

I suggest you don't avail yourself of MAID yourself, and keep your views to yourself when anyone else wants to.

You sound like you don't want to hear anything from anyone that might be trying to save you from yourself.  Sounds a bit like someone who is getting ready to jump off a bridge and tells any would-be rescuer to go away and get lost.  Unfortunately our own thinking can be our downfall. 

If the law says you can do yourself in with help from a doctor, there is not much anyone can do about it if you are determined.  One problem with this is you are not doing this entirely yourself.  You are using a doctor to commit this offensive act.  He becomes an accessory to the fact much like the Nazis that kept the gas chambers running.  Not a big difference.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You sound like you don't want to hear anything from anyone that might be trying to save you from yourself.  Sounds a bit like someone who is getting ready to jump off a bridge and tells any would-be rescuer to go away and get lost.  Unfortunately our own thinking can be our downfall. 

If the law says you can do yourself in with help from a doctor, there is not much anyone can do about it if you are determined.  One problem with this is you are not doing this entirely yourself.  You are using a doctor to commit this offensive act.  He becomes an accessory to the fact much like the Nazis that kept the gas chambers running.  Not a big difference.

Ah yes, Nazis.

Ridiculous view.

Edited September 30, 2023 by bcsapper
Uncomfortable with an unprovoked insult.

[herbie]

What exactly is the "Problem" that it's not a solution too?

[blackbird]

14 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Ah yes, Nazis.

Actually, having a parliamentary committee sit down and calmly decree how people are going to receive assisted suicide and under what loose conditions, is not that far removed from Nazi mentality, which had no respect for the sanctity of human life, particularly the Jews. 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by blackbird

[Guest]

Just now, blackbird said:

Actually, having a parliamentary committee sit down and calmly decree how people are going to receive assisted suicide and under what lose conditions, is not that far removed from Nazi mentality, which had no respect for the sanctity of human life, particularly the Jews. 

 

Absolute bollocks.  You're talking out of your arse.

 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Right.  You seem to think I should change a deeply held opinion because you've heard some people are being pressured into MAID. 

No,  i seem to think you really do understand the question i'm asking which you pretended not to for some reason.  And the question is legitimate and doesn't require you to change any beliefs in the slightest

Quote

That seems very strange to me.  I wouldn't deny women the right an abortion if I heard some women were being pressured to have one. 

Did someone say we should deny anybody anything?  We DID pass laws about pressuring people into abortions and a lot of people got in trouble for doing that.

Quote

I'm not dodging the question. 

You are entirely dodging the question. And i have no idea why or why you'd falsely claim that somehow the question demands you change your views. It doesn't. It's a simple question - we agree people should have the right - others are using that to pressure people to kill themselves which is bad - how do we deal with that.

And you've spent three posts completely avoiding it.

Sorry - every now and then i forget you're a leftie who thinks that obfuscation is a legit debate tactic rather than an intelligent person who actually has the conviction of their beliefs and the ability to address issues around it.

your dishonest answers only serve to highlight why we should probably put serious limits on those rights.

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

No,  i seem to think you really do understand the question i'm asking which you pretended not to for some reason.  And the question is legitimate and doesn't require you to change any beliefs in the slightest

Did someone say we should deny anybody anything?  We DID pass laws about pressuring people into abortions and a lot of people got in trouble for doing that.

You are entirely dodging the question. And i have no idea why or why you'd falsely claim that somehow the question demands you change your views. It doesn't. It's a simple question - we agree people should have the right - others are using that to pressure people to kill themselves which is bad - how do we deal with that.

And you've spent three posts completely avoiding it.

Sorry - every now and then i forget you're a leftie who thinks that obfuscation is a legit debate tactic rather than an intelligent person who actually has the conviction of their beliefs and the ability to address issues around it.

your dishonest answers only serve to highlight why we should probably put serious limits on those rights.

 

That's okay, every now and then I forget you're a chud.

I answered you here:

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

It's not an issue to me.  I have no idea of the solution, beyond the oversight you suggested in your previous post, which I am all in favour of.  It does not affect my view. 

If you don't like that, tough.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

That's okay, every now and then I forget you're a chud.

Awww muffin - got called out for your bullshit so all you've got left is name calling.  What a pathetic loser. It's low-iq liberals like you that give us nazi's in the house of commons.

Quote

I answered you here:

Four posts later.  After you spent all that effort avoiding the question and whining that even asking a simple and reasonable question like that was "FORCING YOU TO GIVE UP A SACRED BELIEF THAT YOU"VE HELD DEAR ALL YOUR LIFE!!!! Snif! (dramatic pose).

And it's not even an answer.  It's an excuse as to why you don't want to answer followed by my answer.

Sigh.   I don't know why i give you losers the benefit of the doubt and pretend you have a brain or an honest bone in your body.

If people want to know why we need limits on maid, why we need laws to protect transgender kids form teachers, and why social experiments like 'safe supply' fail so badly, a 2 minute conversation with your kind answers the question nicely.  Maybe you should ask yourself why you were so frightened that you couldn't address a simple question like that

[Nexii]

Most Canadians were for MAID in its first iteration. Which was for people who were actually dying of horrible diseases. If you've had a family member die to dementia/Alzheimers it really changes your perspective.

It's gone off the rails though unfortunately. Mental illness should not be a qualifier given the horrible ethical history of psychology. Being gay was once considered a mental illness. Being trans still is (kind of).