Why do Democrats and Republicans both support Ukraine?

[Freddie]

Is it to weaken Russia? I just don't see  the point of dragging this conflict out for however long it takes. Russia isn't going to collapse or fall on their knees for Ukraine. Russia is like one hundred times bigger and has a much bigger population. Putin is just another a*shole dictator and not a serious threat to Americans safety. It's an unwinnable war. Their is no benefit or advantage to supporting Ukraine. It's just another fringe conflict like Vietnam or Korea. I don't believe the US is the global policeman. 

[Canadian_Cavalier]

Because letting Putin take the land of a sovereign nation unchallenged is pure cowardice and sends a message that he can do whatever he wants. The purist isolationist policy of the pre-WWII US was immediately discarded after the bombing of Pearl Harbor because the event thereof instantly rendered it obsolete. Though as Iraq demonstrated, the US should have to have a good warrant to get involved in any conflict, but I believe this is one of them. Independent countries can make their own rules, I'm anything but a globalist, but something must be done about unjust invasions.

No actual soldiers should be sent unless Russia directly attacks a NATO country, of course.

[robosmith]

On 9/15/2023 at 2:04 PM, Freddie said:

Is it to weaken Russia? I just don't see  the point of dragging this conflict out for however long it takes. Russia isn't going to collapse or fall on their knees for Ukraine. Russia is like one hundred times bigger and has a much bigger population. Putin is just another a*shole dictator and not a serious threat to Americans safety. It's an unwinnable war. Their is no benefit or advantage to supporting Ukraine. It's just another fringe conflict like Vietnam or Korea. I don't believe the US is the global policeman. 

The US is NOT FIGHTING in Ukraine. We are coming to the AID of a country which is being BULLIED.

Why do YOU want us to turn our backs on them? You'd just be ENCOURAGING MORE BULLIES.

[Hodad]

On 9/15/2023 at 5:04 PM, Freddie said:

Is it to weaken Russia? I just don't see  the point of dragging this conflict out for however long it takes. Russia isn't going to collapse or fall on their knees for Ukraine. Russia is like one hundred times bigger and has a much bigger population. Putin is just another a*shole dictator and not a serious threat to Americans safety. It's an unwinnable war. Their is no benefit or advantage to supporting Ukraine. It's just another fringe conflict like Vietnam or Korea. I don't believe the US is the global policeman. 

There are plenty of geopolitical reasons to support Ukraine, but the core interest is that it's a free people fighting for survival against an aggressive dictator to remain free people. There aren't many more noble causes.

As Republicans used to believe, freedom isn't free. Self determination is something to be cherished, rather than taken for granted. It must be protected from enemies foreign and domestic (ahem!). And that's a burden that all like-minded people can share 

Every Western democracy in the world exists because another another nation supported their fight to be free. Ukraine deserves the same, not out of cynical self interest, but simply because it's the right thing to do.

 

[sharkman]

The reason both parties generally support the Ukraine war is something called the uni-party.  American politics, like many other nations, do a lot of play acting for the masses.

[Aristides]

What’s going on in Ukraine isn’t play acting.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

What’s going on in Ukraine isn’t play acting.

The claim is: Almost 10,000 civilians killed so far in Ukraine.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/#:~:text=Number of civilian casualties during the war in Ukraine 2022-2023&text=The Office of the United,reported to have been injured.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, sharkman said:

The reason both parties generally support the Ukraine war is something called the uni-party.  American politics, like many other nations, do a lot of play acting for the masses.

Promoting democracy world wide has ALWAYS (before Trump) been a common interest in the US.

Not so much when it involves US kids fighting and dying.

[CdnFox]

Sorry - but these guys are mostly wrong.

The us isn't interested much in 'democracy' in the ukraine. Until very recently it's been a cesspool in that regards.  Which is  why the us did not intervene during the last conflict in 2014.

The reasons that they are getting involved now are a little complex - but it boils down to the ukraine is a huge food resource they'd like to be within the western sphere of influence, ukraine makes a  great buffer to the Nato states AND it makes a great 'listening post' and military post to keep russia bottled up,  and most of all the ukrainians are completely depleating the russian military might and weakening them tremendously, and without the loss of a single US life  THis will radically reduce russia's ability to intervene elsewhere around the world.

Big side benefit that a lot of weapons that havent' been tested much in real combat are getting serous workouts and  they're learning for the next round of improvements and upgrades from real world combat situations. That's very valuable

And till recently it's mostly just been gear that needed to be retired soon anyway.

As far as wars go - this is cheap as hell and the benefits are pretty large.  The russian tank force has been severely depleted, it's "regular" soldiers are pretty much shot up, it's lost several major naval vessels that it simply cannot replace right now, it's ammunition supplies are gone and it's using everything coming off the line, it's losing prestige in other countries that may have been vassal states, and it's economy is taking a beating and it's debt is mounting. And it's still backsliding at the moment.

That's why.

[robosmith]

7 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Sorry - but these guys are mostly wrong.

The us isn't interested much in 'democracy' in the ukraine.

You mean YOU (MAGA CULT) aren't interested in democracy.

Of course like most of the MAGA CULT, you're ONLY interested in your SELFISH INTERESTS.

Which is why YOU DEFEND a guy who tried to destroy democracy in the US.

I'll bet you'd be singing a different tune if Trudeau tried to do what Trump TRIED. ?

[West]

Lots of corruption and they are making money off it most likely

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

You mean YOU (MAGA CULT) aren't interested in democracy.

Nope. I mean politicians on both sides when it comes  to other countries

THe republicans care when it's about the us - the dems wish democracy would go away everywhere. 
 

Quote

 

Of course like most of the MAGA CULT, you're ONLY interested in your SELFISH INTERESTS.

Which is why YOU DEFEND a guy who tried to destroy democracy in the US.

I'll bet you'd be singing a different tune if Trudeau tried to do what Trump TRIED. ? 

 

Oh shit, i've broken his brain again  

Awww little guy? Did you fall asleep and have another nightmare that trump was president again and all your lies had come to nothing?

 There there - remember it'll only be for four years   - then... DeSantis! ROFLMAO!!!!

[NYLefty]

Make Putin bleed by taking on this senseless ego war. Make his people overthrow him. He will never win in Ukraine 

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, robosmith said:

SELFISH INTERESTS

War is about selfish interests.

Nobody fights wars for selfless interests. You're not pouring billions or trillions into anything, unless you are directly affected or stand to directly benefit from it.

If you honestly think the Iraq war is about removing a bad dictator, you literally are why politicians use propaganda to advance on their interests, and calm down the population.

It also doesn't explain why Kim Jong Un remains untouched, despite his threats, let alone his being a bad dictator. There are literally no US interests in North Korea.

Look at history.

The US had promised never to move NATO eastward. 

It obviously has, but admitting Ukraine to it, would be no different when looking at history,  than admitting Taiwan to it.

Its an act of war, and they were warned as such.

Notice how the international community calls Taiwan Taipei, to appease China?

China would be far more aggressive in defending what it perceived its territorial integrity.

Ukraine is no more part of Russia as Taiwan is part of China, but common sense should be at play here.

How would the US feel, with Mexico joining alliances with China or Russia, and thus having either military stationed at its border?

This would be an act of war.

Russia warned of this.

Negotiations should have been very aggressive, vs the tough talk that came from the US, making Ukraine literally believe their backs would be covered.

Sure weapons were sent their way, but the US fear, is blatant in the deliberate delay of sending aircraft to Ukraine.

The type of war they are fighting now, would require air support to avoid it from being a meat grinder, suicidal mission.

The US in its lack of aggression, is looking more to weaken Russia than to help Ukraine from a bully, if you look at actions.

The longer this lasts, the better for the US, and yes--its interests. 

 

 

[Rebound]

On 9/15/2023 at 11:04 PM, Freddie said:

Is it to weaken Russia? I just don't see  the point of dragging this conflict out for however long it takes. Russia isn't going to collapse or fall on their knees for Ukraine. Russia is like one hundred times bigger and has a much bigger population. Putin is just another a*shole dictator and not a serious threat to Americans safety. It's an unwinnable war. Their is no benefit or advantage to supporting Ukraine. It's just another fringe conflict like Vietnam or Korea. I don't believe the US is the global policeman. 

Why do Republicans and Democrats support Czechoslovakia?
 

Is it to weaken Germany? I just don't see  the point of dragging this conflict out for however long it takes. Nazi Germany  isn't going to collapse or fall on their knees for Czechoslovakia. Germany is like one hundred times bigger and has a much bigger population. Hitler is just another a*shole dictator and not a serious threat to Americans safety. It's an unwinnable war. Their is no benefit or advantage to supporting Czechoslovakia. It's just another fringe conflict. I don't believe the US is the global policeman. 
 

Of course, in 1936, the Republicans didn’t support Czechoslovakia, and Hitler invaded, then he invaded Poland, and WW II broke out. Putin will not stop with Ukraine.

 

 

[Rebound]

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

War is about selfish interests.

Nobody fights wars for selfless interests. You're not pouring billions or trillions into anything, unless you are directly affected or stand to directly benefit from it.

If you honestly think the Iraq war is about removing a bad dictator, you literally are why politicians use propaganda to advance on their interests, and calm down the population.

It also doesn't explain why Kim Jong Un remains untouched, despite his threats, let alone his being a bad dictator. There are literally no US interests in North Korea.

Look at history.

The US had promised never to move NATO eastward. 

It obviously has, but admitting Ukraine to it, would be no different when looking at history,  than admitting Taiwan to it.

Its an act of war, and they were warned as such.

Notice how the international community calls Taiwan Taipei, to appease China?

China would be far more aggressive in defending what it perceived its territorial integrity.

Ukraine is no more part of Russia as Taiwan is part of China, but common sense should be at play here.

How would the US feel, with Mexico joining alliances with China or Russia, and thus having either military stationed at its border?

This would be an act of war.

Russia warned of this.

Negotiations should have been very aggressive, vs the tough talk that came from the US, making Ukraine literally believe their backs would be covered.

Sure weapons were sent their way, but the US fear, is blatant in the deliberate delay of sending aircraft to Ukraine.

The type of war they are fighting now, would require air support to avoid it from being a meat grinder, suicidal mission.

The US in its lack of aggression, is looking more to weaken Russia than to help Ukraine from a bully, if you look at actions.

The longer this lasts, the better for the US, and yes--its interests. 

 

 

Taipei is the Capitol city of Taiwan.

[Perspektiv]

34 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Taipei is the Capitol city of Taiwan.

I know this, have traveled the world. Taipei and Tainan are gorgeous cities I recommend you visit, if you haven't already.

Point being made, is that this is how they refer to an otherwise sovereign country. It also doesn't explain the why. 

I was pointing to the double standard of caution used while dealing with China, and level of disrespect and disregard when dealing with Russia.

This was insanely preventable.

[Deluge]

On 9/15/2023 at 3:04 PM, Freddie said:

Is it to weaken Russia? I just don't see  the point of dragging this conflict out for however long it takes. Russia isn't going to collapse or fall on their knees for Ukraine. Russia is like one hundred times bigger and has a much bigger population. Putin is just another a*shole dictator and not a serious threat to Americans safety. It's an unwinnable war. Their is no benefit or advantage to supporting Ukraine. It's just another fringe conflict like Vietnam or Korea. I don't believe the US is the global policeman. 

Agreed. The US has no reason to be there other than to push the democrat narrative which is "wokeness everywhere or we kill you", which is an evil reason and should be purged from our country. 

[Perspektiv]

11 hours ago, NYLefty said:

Make Putin bleed by taking on this senseless ego war.

This war started almost a decade ago, if not beyond. The warnings were there.

Senseless, sure, but to pretend this is out of the blue or people who understand history that this is all about nothing, is laughable.

11 hours ago, NYLefty said:

Make his people overthrow him.

He has an iron grip on power.

He is rational as he is brutal.

Take him out, and you're likely putting someone more like the man who recently tried to take him out, instead. 

Complete loose cannon, unpredictable, etc.

The US didn't learn with Hussein. Take out stability, and there will be infighting for the power vacuum you will create. This makes them more dangerous. Not less.

11 hours ago, NYLefty said:

He will never win in Ukraine 

He already has. 

He ultimately and likely will have a negotiated deal that works in his favor in 2024.

This war only ends in diplomacy. Russia is going nowhere. They have too much to lose, as does Ukraine if refusing to fight back.

You cannot win this war on the ground.

This is a "you blink you lose" game.

Russia has nothing to lose, as they have already lost it all, regarding their global standing.

They have nothing to worry about, regarding Chinese, North Korean and the support of other countries like theirs.

The west will grow tired, seeing growing death tolls and no results. The pressure will mount on Ukraine to do something. To negotiate.

Who gets voted into the white house  will sort of either confirm what am saying, or am totally wrong and people wish to continue to spend billions into this war.

[Hodad]

14 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Agreed. The US has no reason to be there other than to push the democrat narrative which is "wokeness everywhere or we kill you", which is an evil reason and should be purged from our country. 

Oh, then you'll be delighted to learn that we're NOT there.

I remember a time not too long ago when democracy and liberty were Republican values too, not "wokeness." Clearly you've moved beyond such "trivial" values in your quest for authoritarian domination. Pity. 

[Deluge]

8 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Oh, then you'll be delighted to learn that we're NOT there.

I remember a time not too long ago when democracy and liberty were Republican values too, not "wokeness." Clearly you've moved beyond such "trivial" values in your quest for authoritarian domination. Pity. 

Our influence is there, which is the same thing.

We don't need woke puppet masters pulling strings over there. We need to bounce those asses out of our leadership and vote people in who will focus on our own country. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Deluge

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, Deluge said:

Our influence is there, which is the same thing.

We don't need woke puppet masters pulling strings over there. We need to bounce those asses out of our leadership and vote people in who will focus on our own country. 

Our influence is everywhere. That's what it means to be a superpower. 

I have no interest in becoming a hermit nation like NK. 

Far better to take part in positively shaping the community in which one lives than to simply hope things work out in your favor. If we're not positively influencing things, someone else will fill that role, and we might not like what comes of it.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Hodad

[Deluge]

9 minutes ago, Hodad said:

1. Our influence is everywhere. That's what it means to be a superpower. 

2. I have no interest in become a hermit nation like NK. 

3. Far better to take part in positively shaping the community in which one lives than to simply hope things work out in your favor. If we're not positively influencing things, someone else will fill that role, and we might not like what comes of it.

1. We're in Ukraine for the wrong reasons - for the woke reasons - and that has to stop. 

2. I do - especially now. Maybe after we've become healthy and strong again we can go out do some more good. 

3. It's best to take care of ourselves first, THEN we'll be in shape to help others. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Deluge

[NYLefty]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

This war started almost a decade ago, if not beyond. The warnings were there.

Senseless, sure, but to pretend this is out of the blue or people who understand history that this is all about nothing, is laughable.

He has an iron grip on power.

He is rational as he is brutal.

Take him out, and you're likely putting someone more like the man who recently tried to take him out, instead. 

Complete loose cannon, unpredictable, etc.

The US didn't learn with Hussein. Take out stability, and there will be infighting for the power vacuum you will create. This makes them more dangerous. Not less.

He already has. 

He ultimately and likely will have a negotiated deal that works in his favor in 2024.

This war only ends in diplomacy. Russia is going nowhere. They have too much to lose, as does Ukraine if refusing to fight back.

You cannot win this war on the ground.

This is a "you blink you lose" game.

Russia has nothing to lose, as they have already lost it all, regarding their global standing.

They have nothing to worry about, regarding Chinese, North Korean and the support of other countries like theirs.

The west will grow tired, seeing growing death tolls and no results. The pressure will mount on Ukraine to do something. To negotiate.

Who gets voted into the white house  will sort of either confirm what am saying, or am totally wrong and people wish to continue to spend billions into this war.

All three responses "Pure Rubbish". But nice try

[robosmith]

12 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

War is about selfish interests.

Nobody fights wars for selfless interests. You're not pouring billions or trillions into anything, unless you are directly affected or stand to directly benefit from it.

If you honestly think the Iraq war is about removing a bad dictator, you literally are why politicians use propaganda to advance on their interests, and calm down the population.

It also doesn't explain why Kim Jong Un remains untouched, despite his threats, let alone his being a bad dictator. There are literally no US interests in North Korea.

Look at history.

The US had promised never to move NATO eastward. 

It obviously has, but admitting Ukraine to it, would be no different when looking at history,  than admitting Taiwan to it.

Its an act of war, and they were warned as such.

Notice how the international community calls Taiwan Taipei, to appease China?

China would be far more aggressive in defending what it perceived its territorial integrity.

Ukraine is no more part of Russia as Taiwan is part of China, but common sense should be at play here.

How would the US feel, with Mexico joining alliances with China or Russia, and thus having either military stationed at its border?

This would be an act of war.

Russia warned of this.

Negotiations should have been very aggressive, vs the tough talk that came from the US, making Ukraine literally believe their backs would be covered.

Sure weapons were sent their way, but the US fear, is blatant in the deliberate delay of sending aircraft to Ukraine.

The type of war they are fighting now, would require air support to avoid it from being a meat grinder, suicidal mission.

The US in its lack of aggression, is looking more to weaken Russia than to help Ukraine from a bully, if you look at actions.

The longer this lasts, the better for the US, and yes--its interests. 

 

 

Allowing Ukraine to CHOOSE NATO membership is NOT an "act of war" just cause Putin SAYS it is. NATO is DEFENSIVE and has not ATTACKED any nation UNPROVOKED by an attack.

Now MAYBE if the US had installed nuclear missiles in Ukraine, but at THIS POINT, Putin has proven them necessary for defensive purposes.