Pearson, 1956, Suez - Canada Should Leave NATO 2023

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It increasingly feels like Canadians are on the losing end of a mad social engineering experiment.

I thought you were moving to Florida and leaving this wasteland behind.

[Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I thought you were moving to Florida and leaving this wasteland behind.

I can’t though. My family and job are here.  You miss the whole point of why I say such things.  I love Canada.  You couldn’t make more beautiful scenery than Muskoka at sunset or Lake Louise in fall.  I wouldn’t bother saying anything if it wasn’t to put a fire under people and remind them what we could be and what we have been, which is truly great.  Canada can be as good as it gets, so we shouldn’t destroy ourselves to try to make some foreign interests or radical special interests happy.  We need to restore what we had at this point, because what we are getting right now isn’t as good.  If we carry on down the current trajectory, we could lose much more.  

Edited September 3, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Moonbox]

Lake Huron sunset beats Muskoka any day of the year. 
 

Can’t water ski on Lake Huron though… 

?

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 I love Canada.  

the Canada you are invoking is the one founded by the French on 22 June 1603

the Canada we live in now is only the Confederation

it is not an idyllic wilderness, it is a political construct

a massive bloated overbearing bureaucracy ceaselessly trying to run everything centrally from Ottawa

which is the source of all dysfunction

[Queenmandy85]

Back to the topic of NATO, we would be ill-advised to leave NATO before the spring of 2029. By then, Presidents Putin, Trump and Xi will be out of office. Since nobody in Canada is willing to pay for our own defence, let alone participate, we depend on article V for our defence. 

[Dougie93]

19 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Back to the topic of NATO, we would be ill-advised to leave NATO before the spring of 2029. By then, Presidents Putin, Trump and Xi will be out of office. Since nobody in Canada is willing to pay for our own defence, let alone participate, we depend on article V for our defence. 

again, Canada has no alternate military strategy

is the Canadian population willing to give up their social safety net in order to be a heavily armed neutral ?

obviously not

barely anyone in Canada is willing to serve in the military

yet being a neutral would require universal conscription

are Canadians willing to submit to that ?

obviously not

being defended by the Global Hegemon is the greatest deal Canada is ever going to get

wishing the Americans away as the Global Hegemon is a nightmare scenario for Canada

Canada is not just a founding member of NATO

Canada conspired with the British to make it happen

Britain & Canada dragged the Americans into NATO

not because it was in America's interests, because it was in Britain & Canada's interests 

Winston Churchill went to Missouri and invoked the Iron Curtain to scare the Americans into it

Edited September 3, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

41 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 Since nobody in Canada is willing to pay for our own defence, let alone participate, we depend on article V for our defence. 

on the other hand, being a neutral would be a boon for HM Canadian Army

can you imagine ?

every Militia infantry regiment in the Order of Battle would have to be brought up to full battalion strength

ah, that would be glorious

Cuidich 'n Righ

[August1991]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:56 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Canada made some bold moves and sacrifices.  It has so much potential, but it no longer feels like our governments are serving Canadians, especially the federal government. We’ve woken up to overcrowded cities with rising violence and governments pushing ideology that most sensible people would never want for their families or communities.

....

It increasingly feels like Canadians are on the losing end of a mad social engineering experiment.

Nothing of the sort.

====

Pearson and Trudeau, we Canadians were once part of a way to get along. We found ways to avoid war and destruction.

[suds]

I sort of like 'speak softly and carry a big stick'.  If I were a belligerent I wouldn't want to mess around with NATO or any Nato member. Getting out of NATO is insanity.

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, suds said:

I sort of like 'speak softly and carry a big stick'.  If I were a belligerent I wouldn't want to mess around with NATO or any Nato member. Getting out of NATO is insanity.

the general public is generally misinformed as to the exact terms of the NATO treaty

formally ; the 1949 Washington Treaty

as what the treaty actually says, is that each member can decide for itself

what it "deems necessary" to contribute, as in place forces under command of NATO SHAPE in Brussels

contrary to popular sentiment, the treaty does not bind members to go to war

rather it only binds them to "render aid"

so it's not really a question of how big & powerful NATO is on paper

because it really comes down to the fine print if/when NATO Article V is invoked

to wit, which NATO members would actually fight, and which would stay on the sidelines ?

[Zeitgeist]

12 hours ago, August1991 said:

Nothing of the sort.

====

Pearson and Trudeau, we Canadians were once part of a way to get along. We found ways to avoid war and destruction.

It changed with the government’s Covid response for me, in the final year of the pandemic.  The cancel culture that has entered pretty much every organization, with Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion contestable narratives and the genocide narrative for residential schools, or the disturbing policies of gender affirmation and ideology all speak to an overbearing government of radicals ramming their damaging perspectives down everyone’s throats.

 I’m hoping that an effective opposition can overcome this cultural revolutionary mess, but I’m not sure it can be displaced in Canada.  The jury is out.

[Queenmandy85]

49 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the 1949 Washington Treaty

as what the treaty actually says, is that each member can decide for itself

what it "deems necessary" to contribute, as in place forces under command of NATO SHAPE in Brussels

contrary to popular sentiment, the treaty does not bind members to go to war

rather it only binds them to "render aid"

Thank you, Doug. Good points.

[suds]

51 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

to wit, which NATO members would actually fight, and which would stay on the sidelines ?

I would like to think each member would contribute accordingly to get the job done. Otherwise, what's the point? I can't think of one member who would sit on the sidelines. The people wouldn't allow it.

[Dougie93]

16 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Thank you, Doug. Good points.

I would suggest that the glaring weak links in NATO are France, Germany, Italy & Turkey

and after America & Britain, those are NATOs four most powerful countries and military's

[Dougie93]

15 minutes ago, suds said:

I would like to think each member would contribute accordingly to get the job done. Otherwise, what's the point? I can't think of one member who would sit on the sidelines. The people wouldn't allow it.

but if the major NATO powers chose not to go to all out war

but rather held back in a supporting role

that makes NATO far less intimidating on the battlefield

particularly when the Russians are employing nuclear blackmail

[August1991]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:21 AM, Dougie93 said:

the general public is generally misinformed as to the exact terms of the NATO treaty

formally ; the 1949 Washington Treaty

====

Like SEATO, NATO was designed to restrict the Soviet Union. 

IMHO, the Vietnam War was, like Dunkerque,  a successful battle in a larger war.

You Americans won. The Berlin Wall is no more.  

====

Since 1991, the world needs a new way of organising itself.

NATO, nowadays, is just a Washington DC bureaucrat bully. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by August1991

[Moonlight Graham]

On 9/2/2023 at 3:34 AM, Dougie93 said:

Canada is never going to leave NATO

because Canada has no foreign policy of its own

Canada is still just a colony

once a colony of the British Empire

handed over to the Americans in 1916 when the British Empire broke itself at the Somme

thus Canadian Confederation is not even capable of making decisions at the level of geopolitics

Like how Canada joined the US to invade Iraq in 2003?   LOL gtfo with your lies and anti- Canadian propoganda.

[Dougie93]

35 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Like how Canada joined the US to invade Iraq in 2003?   LOL gtfo with your lies and anti- Canadian propoganda.

you are the one who posted a thread entirely for you to disavow Canada

you posted a tirade against Canadian society itself

then declared that you were "done with" Canada

I simply state the obvious

which is that only the Hegemons have foreign policies

client states like Canada do not assert independence from the foreign policy of the American Hegemon

which is not an indictment of Canada per se, since no American client state defies American foreign policy

furthermore, American foreign policy is entirely to Canada's advantage

Canada being a protected & propped up client therein

in terms of Canada failing to support its chief ally and benefactor in Iraq

just another case of Canada being a notorious free rider

Canada also declined to send troops to the Persian Gulf War in 1990

even tho that operation met Canada's supposed demand for an UNSC Resolution Chapter 7

Edited September 10, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

On 9/8/2023 at 11:45 PM, August1991 said:

Like SEATO, NATO was designed to restrict the Soviet Union. 

IMHO, the Vietnam War was, like Dunkerque,  a successful battle in a larger war.

You Americans won. The Berlin Wall is no more.  

====

Since 1991, the world needs a new way of organising itself.

NATO, nowadays, is just a Washington DC bureaucrat bully. 

there is nothing in the 1949 Washington Treaty mentioning the Soviet Union

the treaty instead invokes a North Atlantic Security Zone

with NATO as the guarantors of collective security therein, against any & all threats

the assertion that Canada should make itself into some sort of Hermit Kingdom

cutting itself off from the Western Collective Security Alliance, is sheer lunacy

again, that is the America Firster position, which entirely against Canada's interests

since the America Firsters would freeze Canada out first & foremost

the America Firsters are most hostile to Canada & Mexico

the Europeans are way further down on the America Firster list of adversaries

I know America Firsters well

most of my Republican friends are America Firsters

and while they certainly sympathize with the Truckers of the Freedom Convoy

they generally despise Canada, considering it to be a Communist country ; Cuba North

if they had their druthers, Canada would be punished by enforced isolation from America

Canada was already kicked out of the British Empire

if Canada gets kicked out of the American empire, where is Canada going to go ?

the only alternative is to follow the Chinese Communists into the abyss of Stalinist tyranny

which seems to be Canada's ludicrous plan in the end ; what a basket case

Edited September 10, 2023 by Dougie93

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

i simply state the obvious

which is that only the Hegemons have foreign policies

client states like Canada do not assert independence from the foreign policy of the American Hegemon

which is not an indictment of Canada per se, since no American client state defies American foreign policy

furthermore, American foreign policy is entirely to Canada's advantage

Canada being a protected & propped up client therein

in terms of Canada failing to support its chief ally and benefactor in Iraq

just another case of Canada being a notorious free rider

Canada also declined to send troops to the Persian Gulf War in 1990

even tho that operation met Canada's supposed demand for an UNSC Resolution Chapter 7

The US doesn't determine Canadian foreign policy.  Canada has gone against US foreign policy many times.  You're full of sh!t.  You lie constantly.

[Canadian_Cavalier]

Canada will not leave NATO and it should not, either. A defensive alliance that protects us from China and Russia is good and I don't see why some "conservatives" (looking at you, PPC) think otherwise.

[Army Guy]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:16 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

Back to the topic of NATO, we would be ill-advised to leave NATO before the spring of 2029. By then, Presidents Putin, Trump and Xi will be out of office. Since nobody in Canada is willing to pay for our own defence, let alone participate, we depend on article V for our defence. 

At some point in time someone is going to call out all the free loaders to which Canada seems to be the leader off...and Kick us out of the alliances we have joined, Lets not forget that all of these alliances have rules and policies very few of them we are following.. In fact we actually taunt them to their faces and say F*uck you we are not playing that game....we don't deserve that protection you say we depend on...

Canadians should be disgusted at how we act on the international front...we would be the first nation to call out  any nation that did the same....everything in this country is broken including the people...we are nothing more than spoiled children, and one day dads going put his foot down...

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

you are the one who posted a thread entirely for you to disavow Canada

you posted a tirade against Canadian society itself

then declared that you were "done with" Canada

I simply state the obvious

which is that only the Hegemons have foreign policies

client states like Canada do not assert independence from the foreign policy of the American Hegemon

which is not an indictment of Canada per se, since no American client state defies American foreign policy

furthermore, American foreign policy is entirely to Canada's advantage

Canada being a protected & propped up client therein

in terms of Canada failing to support its chief ally and benefactor in Iraq

just another case of Canada being a notorious free rider

Canada also declined to send troops to the Persian Gulf War in 1990

even tho that operation met Canada's supposed demand for an UNSC Resolution Chapter 7

Perhaps your mistaken Canada did send troops during the first Gulf war, 3 RCR Germany sent a complete rifle company to Qatar, to provide security for the airfield...Plus a field hospital with infantry support, plus others over 4000 to 5400 soldiers served in Iraq.

 

Persian Gulf War, 1990-91 | The Canadian Encyclopedia

 

During the Second gulf war,2003  there was over 100 Canadian soldiers imbedded in US units that went to war, plus approx 40 to 50 other directly in supporting roles...

Military participation[edit]

Though no declaration of war was issued, the Governor General-in-Council did order the mobilization of a number of Canadian Forces personnel to serve actively in Iraq.^[2] On 31 March 2003, it was reported in Maclean's that in the previous month Canadian officers, aboard three frigates and a destroyer, had been placed in command of the multinational naval group Task Force 151, which patrolled the Persian Gulf region. A further 30 Canadians worked at the US Central Command in Qatar, and 150 troops were on exchange with US and British forces in proximity to combat.^[6] North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) stationed Canadian Air Force pilots also flew combat missions with the US Air Force E-3 Sentry, and exchange officers fought with US units. Canadian pilots also flew Boeing C-17s into Iraq to "season" the flight crews.^[34] In all, 40 to 50 Canadian military members

Canada and the Iraq War - Wikipedia

[Dougie93]

31 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Perhaps your mistaken Canada did send troops during the first Gulf war, 3 RCR Germany sent a complete rifle company to Qatar, to provide security for the airfield..

yes, guarding CF-18's which were not under any threat

guarding Iraqi prisoners already captured by the Americans

clearing UXO after the war was over

Canada none the less did not participate in Operation Desert Storm with the allies meaningfully

even the CF-18's did nothing of consequence

since they didn't have any bombs to drop

they flew "sweep & escort" for American B-52's,

pointless when the Iraqi Air Force had already been wiped out

Edited September 10, 2023 by Dougie93

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

At some point in time someone is going to call out all the free loaders to which Canada seems to be the leader off...and Kick us out of the alliances we have joined, Lets not forget that all of these alliances have rules and policies very few of them we are following.. In fact we actually taunt them to their faces and say F*uck you we are not playing that game....we don't deserve that protection you say we depend on...

Canadians should be disgusted at how we act on the international front...we would be the first nation to call out  any nation that did the same....everything in this country is broken including the people...we are nothing more than spoiled children, and one day dads going put his foot down...

I agree totally. Our defence policy is an embarrassment.