Pearson, 1956, Suez - Canada Should Leave NATO 2023

[August1991]

9 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

there is nothing in the 1949 Washington Treaty mentioning the Soviet Union

the treaty instead invokes a North Atlantic Security Zone

with NATO as the guarantors of collective security therein, against any & all threats

...

Dougie, this is bureaucratic bafflegab.

NATO was designed to restrict the Soviet Union. (Correctly in my opinion.)

[August1991]

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

At some point in time someone is going to call out all the free loaders to which Canada seems to be the leader off...and Kick us out of the alliances we have joined, Lets not forget that all of these alliances have rules and policies very few of them we are following.. In fact we actually taunt them to their faces and say F*uck you we are not playing that game....we don't deserve that protection you say we depend on...

Canadians should be disgusted at how we act on the international front...we would be the first nation to call out  any nation that did the same....everything in this country is broken including the people...we are nothing more than spoiled children, and one day dads going put his foot down...

Disagree.

Our country is not broken. We Canadians get along - we avoid wars. We compromise. We go along to get along.

This is not survival.

We Canadians compromise. We get along. This is the secret to Canada.

[Army Guy]

15 hours ago, August1991 said:

Disagree.

Our country is not broken. We Canadians get along - we avoid wars. We compromise. We go along to get along.

This is not survival.

We Canadians compromise. We get along. This is the secret to Canada.

It's OK it is your right to have another opinion, this country has never been so divided in it's history.

We don't get along, Quebec has a long standing riff with ROC and is not even a have a signature on the constitution.. 

Alberta/ Sask also having major issues with the federal government and has it own separation movement.

Every major federal department is vastly under funded, under manned, and can not perform its function, just look at passport offices, post office, immigration, Military, Veteran affairs, RCMP Coast Guard, CSIS, CRA, the list goes on and on...have you been asleep for the last 8 years

[Army Guy]

18 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

yes, guarding CF-18's which were not under any threat

guarding Iraqi prisoners already captured by the Americans

clearing UXO after the war was over

Canada none the less did not participate in Operation Desert Storm with the allies meaningfully

even the CF-18's did nothing of consequence

since they didn't have any bombs to drop

they flew "sweep & escort" for American B-52's,

pointless when the Iraqi Air Force had already been wiped out

Does not matter if they were engaged like the rest of the coalition, the fact remains they did take part, and played a roll , a small roll, but at the time it was all we could play, Iraqi forces had much better equipment than we did, Canadian ground forces would have been a huge liability considering the equipment we had, outdated Leo I MBT, M113 APC's made in the 50's.

[Army Guy]

17 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I agree totally. Our defence policy is an embarrassment.

Not just our defense policy, our entire foreign policy, everything we do on the inter national front...lets throw in most items we do here at home as well. This entire liberal government over the last 8 years has been a stain on our nation...

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Does not matter if they were engaged like the rest of the coalition, the fact remains they did take part, and played a roll , a small roll, but at the time it was all we could play, Iraqi forces had much better equipment than we did, Canadian ground forces would have been a huge liability considering the equipment we had, outdated Leo I MBT, M113 APC's made in the 50's.

America offered to equip 4 CMBG with M1 Abrams for $1 each, just to try to get Canada to join the fight

but the GoC refused the offer

the Syrians and Egyptians fought alongside the Americans with T-72's

the Marines went to war with M60 and AAV7

the idea that Canada was too poorly equipped to participate is nonsense

[Army Guy]

Sorry Dougie there is a lot of myths about they US offering Canada military equipment, a cite would make me a believer...

Syrians did run T-72's But Egyptians were running M-1A1 at the time along with M-60A3 in their reserve...

M1A1 tank coproduction program in Egypt - Wikipedia

List of equipment of the Egyptian Army - Wikipedia

US marines did initially bring over their M-60A3, but borrowed 60 M-1A1 off the army to operate for the war...

TAB F -- DU Use in the Gulf War (health.mil)

Canada's Leo I was purchased in 1977, in 1993 it was 16 years old and had yet to be upgraded, the fact that in 1993           4 CMBG was closing and being shipped back to Canada, may of been a factor i don't know. That being said the Leo 1C1 was designed to take on T-62/ 64, and although we had limited night vision capabilities we had still not upgraded to better optics until 1995. And yes there where shit tones of M-113 running around, most nations were also running IFV like the bradlys, warriors, that were doing most of the heavy lifting and fighting...but our M-113 were no match for Iraqi BMP's...

Our fighting troops were second to none, one of the great benefactors of being in Germany was the training not only at section level but right up to corp's level...

Lets also remember that not all those nations you mentioned were actually placed in fighting positions, or even near the front lines populated with Iraqi military...countries like Syria, Egypt, and many more,  even the light equipped French were delegated to the flanks... Not to mention how would Canada get it's equipment down there, when everyone was scrambling to get there own shit there...planes and ships were booked up solid...Shit our F-18 were not upgraded to the latest comms so they could not talk to any of the coalition, we did not have any capability to drop anything but dumb bombs...the fact we did not even bring bombs is telling...I will say at the time were probably the best we have been equipped, once 4 Brigade was collapsed most of the good stuff was retired or sold off, or disbanded.... Look at 3 RCR it was regulated to a 10 /90 BN reserve BN most of the Reg force guys were transferred to 1 and 2 RCR...

So i think in my opinion we were not ready or equipped for high intensity warfare, and would of been getting in the way of the war effort...

A farewell to the Leopard 1 main battle tank | Canadian Army Today

[Dougie93]

15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

So i think in my opinion we were not ready or equipped for high intensity warfare, and would of been getting in the way of the war effort...

either way; whether Canada is unable or unwilling to contribute to the efforts

that does not amount Canada having an alternative nor independent foreign policy

it simply amounts to Canada being the notorious free rider within the confines of American foreign policy

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

either way; whether Canada is unable or unwilling to contribute to the efforts

that does not amount Canada having an alternative nor independent foreign policy

it simply amounts to Canada being the notorious free rider within the confines of American foreign policy

It says a lot of who we are as a people, just a bunch of free loaders...anything for a free ride...more concern about the fantasy about 1 million genders than real life concerns....hence why the absolute need for more social programs, the need to be dependent on the government for our survival... Canadians have become soft, lazy, and to demanding.... 

Not all Canadians are like this , would be unfair to those Canadians that actually do care about the nation and our future...but they are not the majority, they are the minority. We have become exactly like a bunch of spoiled rich kids..

 

 

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

It says a lot of who we are as a people, just a bunch of free loaders...anything for a free ride...more concern about the fantasy about 1 million genders than real life concerns....hence why the absolute need for more social programs, the need to be dependent on the government for our survival... Canadians have become soft, lazy, and to demanding.... 

Not all Canadians are like this , would be unfair to those Canadians that actually do care about the nation and our future...but they are not the majority, they are the minority. We have become exactly like a bunch of spoiled rich kids..

to my original point tho

only the Hegmons have foreign policies

foreign policy being a product of empire

namely the British Empire, which invented foreign policy for all intents & purposes

if you don't have an empire and you don't project power, then you don't need a foreign policy

client states such as Canada do not have their own foreign policies

client states like Canada operate within the foreign policy of the Hegemon which defends them

that being American foreign policy in Canada's case

that doesn't mean Canada does absolutely everything America wants Canada to do

but it does mean that Canada never directly opposes American foreign policy

Canada not sending troops would not get Canada punished

Canada defying American foreign policy, which would be siding with America's adversaries

Canada would get punished for that, America wouldn't tolerate open defiance

so in the case of Iraq, Canada did the absolute minimum

but Canada did not actually oppose American intervention, Canada simply opted out

but if Canada asserted an independent foreign policy

that would be inherently adversarial to Washington

and obviously Canada cannot afford to do that

but again, since Canada does not have an empire of its own

there's no need for Canada to do that

particularly when the American Hegemon does not actually impose many demands upon Canada

but if Canada actually tried to be Non Aligned

if Canada were to behave as if it was a Hegemon  onto itself ?

well then Canada would have to get smacked down for that

if you're going to be a Hegemon with its own foreign policy

you're going to need the raw power to back that up against the other Hegemons

Iraq was actually one of those countries

Saddam Hussein asserted Iraq to be the Arabian Hegemon,

in defiance of America, the Soviets & China

and that's why Iraq was crushed in the end

it's called realpolitik

Edited September 12, 2023 by Dougie93

[August1991]

On 9/11/2023 at 1:13 PM, Army Guy said:

It's OK it is your right to have another opinion, this country has never been so divided in it's history.

We don't get along, Quebec has a long standing riff with ROC and is not even a have a signature on the constitution.. 

Alberta/ Sask also having major issues with the federal government and has it own separation movement.

Every major federal department is vastly under funded, under manned, and can not perform its function, just look at passport offices, post office, immigration, Military, Veteran affairs, RCMP Coast Guard, CSIS, CRA, the list goes on and on...have you been asleep for the last 8 years

Disagree. Strongly.

Remember our past: -Catholic/Protestant. English/French The FLQ.

We Canadians have never lived so better together.

====

We have a bilingual federal state that has no official cultural.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

Bump.

IMHO, NATO has become another thug.