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11 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Actually, that was a very incisive point. If you interpret the slowdown in China as a failure of the economic system, how else would you characterize something as extreme as the great depression?

Neatly done. Boxed in like that, your options are to concede the point, find a meaningful flaw in the comparison, or toss out a childish insult and tuck tail.

For what it's worth, only the first two are dignified.

 

 

Hogwash.

The great depression wasn't a failure in an economic system. It was mostly caused by a perfect storm of vunerabiliites in the global economy from ww1 - protectionsm -fed policies and issues around the gold standard at the time which caused interest rates to shoot up.

All of that seriously crippled the market.  The market wasn't to blame.

Further - capitalism also solved the problem.

Capitalism IS prone to ups and downs which was one of keynes complaints - but for every down there's an up.

Communism tends to fail on its own. And when it goes down it stays down. Venezuela isn't coming back anytime soon. The soviet union was always poor.  Cuba always had a low standard of living.

So if anything you've disproven yourself - capitaism has recoveries.  The others don't tend to :)

Oh - and china is more of a strict market socialist country rather than traditional communist.

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14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Hogwash.

The great depression wasn't a failure in an economic system. It was mostly caused by a perfect storm of vunerabiliites in the global economy from ww1 - protectionsm -fed policies and issues around the gold standard at the time which caused interest rates to shoot up.

All of that seriously crippled the market.  The market wasn't to blame.

Further - capitalism also solved the problem.

Capitalism IS prone to ups and downs which was one of keynes complaints - but for every down there's an up.

Communism tends to fail on its own. And when it goes down it stays down. Venezuela isn't coming back anytime soon. The soviet union was always poor.  Cuba always had a low standard of living.

So if anything you've disproven yourself - capitaism has recoveries.  The others don't tend to :)

Oh - and china is more of a strict market socialist country rather than traditional communist.

Now I understand: Under capitalism, any time something good happens, it’s because of capitalism. Any time something bad happens, it’s not because of capitalism. 
 

Except, that’s ridiculous. 

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On 8/25/2023 at 4:56 AM, myata said:

As seen is some heading today: no, it's not Trump "defying political gravity". It's angry mob denying reason and basic intelligence. Mass blindness of thought, conscience and reason. A mob, an idol and nothing else matters. As happened countless time in the history. None at all, zero news.

Political system that produces extreme partisanship is at the end of a normal democratic course. Entering the condition and traditions of African and Latin American elections. This election can be deciding the fate of the U.S. democracy, almost three century tradition but the time is never a guarantee. And even if this threat is overcome, the system itself will remain in place, firmly entrenched, and will keep producing same effects, and results. Renewal is needed desperately - but what's the chance of it?

 

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25 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Now I understand: Under capitalism, any time something good happens, it’s because of capitalism. Any time something bad happens, it’s not because of capitalism. 
 

Except, that’s ridiculous. 

I doubt you understand how to tie your shoes  if that's what you got from that :)

Here - i'll explain it again slowly so that even YOU can understand it.  (sorry i don't have time to have dr seuss put it your usual educational format).

Capitalism has ups and downs. That's one of it's disadvantages.  Booms and busts for various reasons. There are ways  to level out the booms and busts, and we use those methods to make them far less sever  And sometimes factors OTHER than the market, such as wars, can interrupt or affect the natural cycle.

But - although it always goes down, it always goes back up.  

With communism and many forms of socialism, it goes down...  and stays down. The system doesn't allow for it to 'bounce back'.  Once the economy tanks it stays tanked. It may flop around a little but there will be no real recovery.

Venezuela will never bounce back. Cuba never bounced back under castro.  The soviet union never bounced back and crashed and burned.

After the great depression Canada bounced back.  The US bounced back. Europe would bounce back even after ww2. 

So - here it is in terms you'll understand

Capital markets are hard to beat

the Cappies do better, they're really neat

With commie models its more of the norm

to fall on their face and underperform

Commies are putty, they only go splat

Cappies are rubber - they always bounce back.

Don't be a commie - now that you know.

Capitalism IS the best way to go. :)

 

Hope that helps.  Ya idjit.

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16 hours ago, Hodad said:

Actually, that was a very incisive point. If you interpret the slowdown in China as a failure of the economic system, how else would you characterize something as extreme as the great depression?

Neatly done. Boxed in like that, your options are to concede the point, find a meaningful flaw in the comparison, or toss out a childish insult and tuck tail.

For what it's worth, only the first two are dignified.

 

 

Ah...I'm back.

The depression was a global issue. China's issues are self inflicted and not global.

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3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Ah...I'm back.

The depression was a global issue. China's issues are self inflicted and not global.

It was global... eventually. The collapse of the US stock market triggered it and we were the hardest hit.

There has always been sort of a no-true-Scotsman argument by Chicago economists. They say that the Fed miscalculated and that led to the GD. The Fed isn't pure capitalism, so capitalism isn't to blame. But, of course, the Fed exists in its current state specifically to moderate the wild swings of capitalism and provide stability. DId it fail to prevent that crash? yep. But that's kind of like blaming the guardrails for not stopping 100% of cars from careening off a cliff. Well, yeah, it's a bummer that every now and then one breaks through, but we'd have a lot more people off the cliff without guardrails. -- and they've gotten considerably better over the decades. The fact that the Great Recession was only a recession is remarkable. 

Anywho, it was a very fair point. China is currently facing an economic setback. Other economic models have experienced worse. There are a LOT of arguments for why China's model isn't great (philosophical, practical, economic and humanitarian), but I don't think it's fair to call it a failure based on the current situation without applying the same standard for other models. 

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3 hours ago, Hodad said:

It was global... eventually. The collapse of the US stock market triggered it and we were the hardest hit.

There has always been sort of a no-true-Scotsman argument by Chicago economists. They say that the Fed miscalculated and that led to the GD. The Fed isn't pure capitalism, so capitalism isn't to blame. But, of course, the Fed exists in its current state specifically to moderate the wild swings of capitalism and provide stability. DId it fail to prevent that crash? yep. But that's kind of like blaming the guardrails for not stopping 100% of cars from careening off a cliff. Well, yeah, it's a bummer that every now and then one breaks through, but we'd have a lot more people off the cliff without guardrails. -- and they've gotten considerably better over the decades. The fact that the Great Recession was only a recession is remarkable. 

Anywho, it was a very fair point. China is currently facing an economic setback. Other economic models have experienced worse. There are a LOT of arguments for why China's model isn't great (philosophical, practical, economic and humanitarian), but I don't think it's fair to call it a failure based on the current situation without applying the same standard for other models. 

Yes, we can have a very productive discussion about all of China’s positives and negatives, and I think we’d all agree that the negatives outweigh the positives.  But the argument, “They’re communist, therefore they have failed and therefore they will never recover” is silly.  
 

With all their negatives, I’ll say this: The American ex-pats I know in China LOVE it.  They live like kings. And Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Jaguar et al sell more of their luxury cars in China than in any other nation.

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4 hours ago, Hodad said:

It was global... eventually. The collapse of the US stock market triggered it and we were the hardest hit.

There has always been sort of a no-true-Scotsman argument by Chicago economists. They say that the Fed miscalculated and that led to the GD. The Fed isn't pure capitalism, so capitalism isn't to blame. But, of course, the Fed exists in its current state specifically to moderate the wild swings of capitalism and provide stability. DId it fail to prevent that crash? yep. But that's kind of like blaming the guardrails for not stopping 100% of cars from careening off a cliff. Well, yeah, it's a bummer that every now and then one breaks through, but we'd have a lot more people off the cliff without guardrails. -- and they've gotten considerably better over the decades. The fact that the Great Recession was only a recession is remarkable. 

Anywho, it was a very fair point. China is currently facing an economic setback. Other economic models have experienced worse. There are a LOT of arguments for why China's model isn't great (philosophical, practical, economic and humanitarian), but I don't think it's fair to call it a failure based on the current situation without applying the same standard for other models. 

What a lot of typing for nothing...

Edited by Nationalist
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1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

What a lot of typing for nothing...

You are really the worst at this.

Your excuse for US capitalism "failing" in the Great Depression was that it was global. We started it though. We were the point of failure that caused a global depression.

Do you not see how that renders your argument obviously incorrect?  Like super obviously?

Yet you won't or can't ingest that basic information and evolve your opinion. Why is that?

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55 minutes ago, Hodad said:

You are really the worst at this.

Your excuse for US capitalism "failing" in the Great Depression was that it was global. We started it though. We were the point of failure that caused a global depression.

Do you not see how that renders your argument obviously incorrect?  Like super obviously?

Yet you won't or can't ingest that basic information and evolve your opinion. Why is that?

Won't. 

When you lie...endlessly...don't expect anyone to believe you.

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Sorry but America is on a one-way trip. The Republicans to come will make Trump look like a harmless clown at a children’s birthday party in comparison   It cannot be solved because government in the USA is diffused between so many different groups and levels that are designed to oppose each other.  And even of they could, they wouldn’t:  in the USA,  political fundraising is basically a system of legalized bribery and extortion that would never be allowed in most other developed countries.  This means US politicians are mostly interested in appeasing their paymasters, not the US people. 

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On 8/28/2023 at 5:04 AM, Nationalist said:

Capitalism does not fail those with the respect it takes to want to work. Our society's problem is...too many spoiled brats who don't want to work. They expect society to provide for them.

And so do you. 

You don't have any idea what I "expect." 

Lots of people want to work and can't get a job because people like you want it that way. Duh.

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6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

What a lot of typing for nothing...

^There you go again proving your intellectual bankruptcy. LMAO

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Won't. 

When you lie...endlessly...don't expect anyone to believe you.

No one believes your ^intellectually bankrupt posts when you cannot even justify them with an actual argument.

Just empty claims. ?

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4 hours ago, robosmith said:

You don't have any idea what I "expect." 

Lots of people want to work and can't get a job because people like you want it that way. Duh.

Blah blah...woof woof.

Sweetie...I think I know exactly what you "expect". And honorable folks all over North America...are going to shut you down.!

4 hours ago, robosmith said:

LOL you always have some stupid posts like ^this when you suffer intellectual bankruptcy and cannot produce a coherent rebuttal. 

How many times do I have to remind you?

Ya gits wut ya pays fer. 

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4 hours ago, robosmith said:

^There you go again proving your intellectual bankruptcy. LMAO

No one believes your ^intellectually bankrupt posts when you cannot even justify them with an actual argument.

Just empty claims. ?

Are you puking on the site again?

You should see a doctor about your digestive problems.

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19 hours ago, Hodad said:

It was global... eventually. The collapse of the US stock market triggered it and we were the hardest hit.

There has always been sort of a no-true-Scotsman argument by Chicago economists. They say that the Fed miscalculated and that led to the GD. The Fed isn't pure capitalism, so capitalism isn't to blame. But, of course, the Fed exists in its current state specifically to moderate the wild swings of capitalism and provide stability. DId it fail to prevent that crash? yep. But that's kind of like blaming the guardrails for not stopping 100% of cars from careening off a cliff. Well, yeah, it's a bummer that every now and then one breaks through, but we'd have a lot more people off the cliff without guardrails. -- and they've gotten considerably better over the decades. The fact that the Great Recession was only a recession is remarkable. 

Anywho, it was a very fair point. China is currently facing an economic setback. Other economic models have experienced worse. There are a LOT of arguments for why China's model isn't great (philosophical, practical, economic and humanitarian), but I don't think it's fair to call it a failure based on the current situation without applying the same standard for other models. 

This has kind of already been explained. 

First off Capitalism is not a political model the way socialism and communism and similar models are.  So it is easily influenced by outside forces. It has nothing in the world to do with "true" capitalism or the like, there isnt' any such thing and no economist thinks there is.

you have laissez-faire capitalism (probably what you mean by 'true' or whatever) and then you have various free market models, but things like war are always going to interfere.

And the 'stock market crash is not what caused the great depression, that was just a result of it.  The problems stemming from the great war and a bunch of other factors created a pile of tinder and a match got lit.

China's problems tend to be more systemic.  Much like our problems here at home are more systemic - we're sinking and we're not bouncing back. And that's not a failure of the economic model - that's a failure of the political model. But in china the two are the same thing, the economic and political model is completely intertwined and has to be.  So the failure of one is the failure of the other.

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Lies, damn lies and social media — there’s a reason this country is so deeply polarized

Quote

Many unsettling statistics jumped out at me as I watched “Trustworthy: All Voices Heard,” a new documentary about how mistrust in media, exacerbated by rampant misinformation and disinformation on social media, can corrode our faith in democracy:

More than two-thirds of all Americans perceive a serious threat to our democracy.

Half of all Americans believe there will be civil war in the United States in the next few years.

And — no surprise here — two-thirds of Americans feel worn out by the news they are getting today.

“We are 100% the Divided States of America,” says Kevin Geffers Sr., a Texas painter interviewed by Stephany Zamora, a first-time filmmaker who was so unsettled by the events of Jan. 6 that she loaded up a bus with her crew and traveled more than 5,000 miles across the country interviewing journalists, media experts and civilians. Was it possible, she asked, for people on opposite sides of the political spectrum to find common ground when we can’t even agree on what is true?

“The American people are confused and frustrated,” former Fox News anchor Laurie Dhue tells the filmmaker.

“Not knowing what the truth is is terribly hard for our democracy, it scares me a lot,” says Columbia University journalism professor and historian Andie Tucher.
 
We also encounter MIT management professor Sinan Aral, who wrote “The Hype Machine,” a 2020 book about the “perils and promise” of social media. Aral, who has studied social networks for 20 years, made three predictions in the book: that fake news would catalyze political violence, that anti-vaxx misinformation could disrupt the rollout of vaccines and that social media had the power to sway equity markets. All of three came true, and it didn’t take long.

The Jan. 6 insurrection was the direct result of the execrable lie that Democrats had stolen the 2020 election from former President Trump.

In January 2021, a major vaccination effort at Dodger Stadium was interrupted when anti-vaxx protesters shut it down for nearly an hour.

Also in January 2021, a Reddit-driven effort to revive the stock price of the struggling video game retailer GameStop resulted in the stock rising 1,000% in two weeks.

“Social media is rewriting the central nervous system of humanity by algorithmically connecting, informing, nudging, persuading, mobilizing, and yes, entertaining us,” writes Aral in a new preface to “The Hype Machine.” “It’s been doing so for years, with clear, measurable and profound implications for our democracies, our economies and our public health. And it’s time we woke up to these realities.”

Where, oh, where is Walter Cronkite when you need him?

I kid.


 

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1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Typical leftie bullshit -  "America is divided because of dishonesty in information from the media and IT"S ALL TRUMPS FAULT AND THE REPUBLICANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

which is buillshit to the extreme.  The dems are even worse at dishonesty, misinformation and rhetoric.  Comments like when asked about violence in protests "protests are supposed to make you feel uncomfortable"  and pelosi's  "I don't know why there aren't uprisings all over the country and maybe there will be when people realize this is policy.... "

But of course it's very very typical of the left.  They identify the problem as being excessive rhetoric and heated language and misinformation but they absolutely refuse to acknowledge that they have any role to play in the sightest.

And thus the problem continues.

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Typical leftie bullshit - 

Do 50+ cases of blatant lies laughed out of courts matter? C'mon you can answer such a simple question, why being so shy here all of a sudden? To uninitiated this is a famous champion of the justice system only something suddenly happened with the eyesight and hearing too (memory included). Any doctors around, by the way? Possibly a case of acute mob-induced brain disorder.

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