Defying reason

[myata]

As seen is some heading today: no, it's not Trump "defying political gravity". It's angry mob denying reason and basic intelligence. Mass blindness of thought, conscience and reason. A mob, an idol and nothing else matters. As happened countless time in the history. None at all, zero news.

Political system that produces extreme partisanship is at the end of a normal democratic course. Entering the condition and traditions of African and Latin American elections. This election can be deciding the fate of the U.S. democracy, almost three century tradition but the time is never a guarantee. And even if this threat is overcome, the system itself will remain in place, firmly entrenched, and will keep producing same effects, and results. Renewal is needed desperately - but what's the chance of it?

[West]

 

Tell me whos denying reason and basic intelligence

Edited August 25, 2023 by West

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, myata said:

Renewal is needed desperately - but what's the chance of it?

Renewal how though?

Both sides claim rationality, but neither side is primarily guided by reason.

Consumer culture has, to my perspective, undermined the foundations of democracy.  The political sphere is dominated by celebrity, superficial impressions and tribalism.

 

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Renewal how though?

Both sides claim rationality, but neither side is primarily guided by reason.

This is very true. So just how do the custodians of democracy (we the people) renew things? To...make America great again?

Well...to start, we the people need to reaffirm that it is us jointly, who hold true power in a democracy. Not the Pelosis or the McConnells. We also need to dispense with the ultra-partisan attitudes. If the politician of your area is not serving your area, vote that person out. Regardless of party. Yet this poses another problem. What is in the best interests of the people?

Today we have a society that requires a lot of energy to maintain. A lot of energy. Yet, many people believe that it is our energy production that is causing rising global temperatures. Now...if the temperature change is dangerous and its a global issue...then rationally, we should identify those places producing the most dangerous levels of pollution and force them to change. But we don't...do we. So if we can't curtail global CO2, shouldn't we find a reliable and cleaner method of energy production? Windmills and mirrors are not reliable and cannot produce enough energy for our needs. We could work to kill the carbon based industries. But we do that now and look at the results.

I suppose what I'm saying is, we can address problems rationally, or panic. We can research and "go green" without trampling on the economy. We can manage immigration without simply opening borders. We can deal with minority rights without dicks waggling in public or cross dressers promoting their kink to kids. We can do anything we need to as "we". But if "we" must be "us" and "them"...

We get more of the chaos we have now.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Nationalist

[reason10]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Renewal how though?

Both sides claim rationality, but neither side is primarily guided by reason.

Consumer culture has, to my perspective, undermined the foundations of democracy.  The political sphere is dominated by celebrity, superficial impressions and tribalism.

 

Consumer culture has existed as far back as the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. And YOUR mentor was the first individual to market the ANTI consumer culture mentality in 1848.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/

Manifesto of the Communist Party

I know you have never read it. Most of your posts here give proof that reading anything is not high on your list. But go through the planks of the Communist Party and you will see pretty much the entire platform of the American Democrat Party. Pretty much all liberals from other countries follow the same philosophy.

https://www.conservativeusa.net/10planksofcommunism.htm

Karl Marx's "10 Planks" to seize power and destroy freedom:

1. Abolition of Property in Land and Application of all Rents of Land to Public Purpose.

2. A Heavy Progressive or Graduated Income Tax.

3. Abolition of All Rights of Inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the Property of All Emigrants and Rebels.

5. Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State, by Means of a National Bank with State Capital and an Exclusive Monopoly.

6. Centralization of the Means of Communication and Transport in the Hands of the State.

7. Extension of Factories and Instruments of Production Owned by the State, the Bringing Into Cultivation of Waste Lands, and the Improvement of the Soil Generally in Accordance with a Common Plan.

8. Equal Liability of All to Labor. Establishment of Industrial Armies, Especially for Agriculture.

9. Combination of Agriculture with Manufacturing Industries; Gradual Abolition of the Distinction Between Town and Country by a More Equable Distribution of the Population over the Country.

10. Free Education for All Children in Public Schools. Abolition of Children's Factory Labor in it's Present Form. Combination of Education with Industrial Production.

I know you never heard of this. And it's pretty much the manifesto of YOUR side of the aisle.

 

---

 

[Deluge]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Renewal how though?

Both sides claim rationality, but neither side is primarily guided by reason.

Consumer culture has, to my perspective, undermined the foundations of democracy.  The political sphere is dominated by celebrity, superficial impressions and tribalism.

 

No, it's just the Left. They're completely unhinged. 

[Nationalist]

22 minutes ago, reason10 said:

Consumer culture has existed as far back as the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. And YOUR mentor was the first individual to market the ANTI consumer culture mentality in 1848.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/

Manifesto of the Communist Party

I know you have never read it. Most of your posts here give proof that reading anything is not high on your list. But go through the planks of the Communist Party and you will see pretty much the entire platform of the American Democrat Party. Pretty much all liberals from other countries follow the same philosophy.

https://www.conservativeusa.net/10planksofcommunism.htm

Karl Marx's "10 Planks" to seize power and destroy freedom:

1. Abolition of Property in Land and Application of all Rents of Land to Public Purpose.

2. A Heavy Progressive or Graduated Income Tax.

3. Abolition of All Rights of Inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the Property of All Emigrants and Rebels.

5. Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State, by Means of a National Bank with State Capital and an Exclusive Monopoly.

6. Centralization of the Means of Communication and Transport in the Hands of the State.

7. Extension of Factories and Instruments of Production Owned by the State, the Bringing Into Cultivation of Waste Lands, and the Improvement of the Soil Generally in Accordance with a Common Plan.

8. Equal Liability of All to Labor. Establishment of Industrial Armies, Especially for Agriculture.

9. Combination of Agriculture with Manufacturing Industries; Gradual Abolition of the Distinction Between Town and Country by a More Equable Distribution of the Population over the Country.

10. Free Education for All Children in Public Schools. Abolition of Children's Factory Labor in it's Present Form. Combination of Education with Industrial Production.

I know you never heard of this. And it's pretty much the manifesto of YOUR side of the aisle.

 

---

 

It is pretty darn close...isn't it @Michael Hardner?

[myata]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Both sides claim rationality

At this stage, when all and any answer can only be pained in one color or the other I'm afraid it's too late for any meaningful chance of a renewal. Like it has to be supported by at least one side and that means automatically that the other one will have to oppose it, just because its different. There may not be a smooth path to renewal from this point on. It's never a guarantee, remember?

42 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Well...to start, we the people need to reaffirm that it is us jointly, who hold true power in a democracy. Not the Pelosis or the McConnells. We also need to dispense with the ultra-partisan attitudes. If the politician of your area is not serving your area, vote that person out. Regardless of party. Yet this poses another problem. What is in the best interests of the people?

Today we have a society that requires a lot of energy to maintain. A lot of energy. Yet, many people believe that it is our energy production that is causing rising global temperatures. Now...if the temperature change is dangerous and its a global issue...then rationally, we should identify those places producing the most dangerous levels of pollution and force them to change. But we don't...do we. So if we can't curtail global CO2, shouldn't we find a reliable and cleaner method of energy production? Windmills and mirrors are not reliable and cannot produce enough energy for our needs. We could work to kill the carbon based industries. But we do that now and look at the results.

I kind of agree with most of it. Wow.

[Michael Hardner]

41 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

This is very true. So just how do the custodians of democracy (we the people) renew things? To...make America great again?

Well...to start, we the people need to reaffirm that it is us jointly, who hold true power in a democracy. Not the Pelosis or the McConnells. We also need to dispense with the ultra-partisan attitudes. If the politician of your area is not serving your area, vote that person out. Regardless of party. Yet this poses another problem. What is in the best interests of the people?

Today we have a society that requires a lot of energy to maintain. A lot of energy. Yet, many people believe that it is our energy production that is causing rising global temperatures. Now...if the temperature change is dangerous and its a global issue...then rationally, we should identify those places producing the most dangerous levels of pollution and force them to change. But we don't...do we. So if we can't curtail global CO2, shouldn't we find a reliable and cleaner method of energy production? Windmills and mirrors are not reliable and cannot produce enough energy for our needs. We could work to kill the carbon based industries. But we do that now and look at the results.

I suppose what I'm saying is, we can address problems rationally, or panic. We can research and "go green" without trampling on the economy. We can manage immigration without simply opening borders. We can deal with minority rights without dicks waggling in public or cross dressers promoting their kink to kids. We can do anything we need to as "we". But if "we" must be "us" and "them"...

We get more of the chaos we have now.

The CO2 example is a huge and complicated one.  

I think maybe what we need to do is make the playing field simpler, and focus on things people understand.  For more complicated issues, create a new discussion space that is smaller and more facts-focused than our day to day politics.  Everyone can participate in all discussions in a democracy but a space that is less emotional and more fact based would help for things with complicated facts.

 

[Michael Hardner]

34 minutes ago, Deluge said:

No, it's just the Left. They're completely unhinged. 

So the answer is to abolish it then.

---
I'll be giving short answers to excessively simple points, and longer answers to people who have put some thought into the problem.  If you're posting nonsense I'll continue to ignore.

14 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

It is pretty darn close...isn't it @Michael Hardner?

I don't know what this is but it's not a good breakdown.  Consumer Culture as we know it speaks to 20th century rise of mass media and advertising... not buying an apple out of a barrel from the general store.

[myata]

Just had to emphasize, angry mobs defying reason and behaving on the intelligence level of well, angry thoughtless mob is no surprise at all, it's their very nature. They always did that and never in history, anything different. None of this is any surprise. Only another period of uncertainty,

that gave rise to an angry mob,

that found itself an idol, and subverted a major party because its more aggressive and louder,

then FPTP through extreme partisanship pulled it right at the top of the political "thought",

and hinged the future of democracy on the result of one election.

Easy. Nothing is impossible for us. Your proud humanity.

Edited August 25, 2023 by myata

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, myata said:

 There may not be a smooth path to renewal from this point on. It's never a guarantee, remember?

Yes.  If we can't agree on what the problem is across political lines then it will continue to drift until it breaks, or the demographics and economics change.

My fear is that, given the polling from young folks, we will just have an economy run by a multinational-neoliberal consortium with CERB for 50% of the population...

[Deluge]

19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So the answer is to abolish it then.

Without even a discussion.

Leftism is about destruction, and ONLY destruction - it needs to go away. 

 

[myata]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes.  If we can't agree on what the problem is across political lines then it will continue to drift until it breaks, or the demographics and economics change.

It takes only one election for an authoritarian to come to power. And then, the only exit could be through some serious mess. That scenario played out so many times in history.

[Hodad]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Renewal how though?

Both sides claim rationality, but neither side is primarily guided by reason.

 

 

I would disagree here. A sizeable constituency on one side, likely through a combination of natural drift and manipulation, have reached the point where they utterly reject even the notion of objective reality.

All the traditional components of reality have been undermined, disparaged and dismissed.No data can sway them because no data can be trusted. No news can be trusted. No institutions can be trusted. No schools can be trusted. And on and on. Indeed, anything or anyone that fails the momentary purity test of subservience to a charismatic leader is tossed by the wayside--even those once considered pillars of the movement. Everything contrary is another conspiracy in the victimhood narrative. It's religion, not reason.

Many things in politics are a "both sides" issue, but this isn't one of them. 

As for a way back from the brink, I think a Republicans are going to have to cut off the gangrenous bits and rebuild by appealing to moderates and independents. They're going to have to be willing to lose some elections to save the republic. They can't just keep courting and catering to the crazies to stay competitive numerically. It's not a winning strategy and only doom lies down that road. Frankly, a rebuild wouldn't take all that long. They just need to find the backbone to make the hard choice.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Hodad

[Nationalist]

56 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The CO2 example is a huge and complicated one.  

I think maybe what we need to do is make the playing field simpler, and focus on things people understand.  For more complicated issues, create a new discussion space that is smaller and more facts-focused than our day to day politics.  Everyone can participate in all discussions in a democracy but a space that is less emotional and more fact based would help for things with complicated facts.

 

No it is not "complicated" at all. You choose to complicate it.

Problem: CO2 emissions have been found to create a greenhouse effect on the planet and is believed to be introducing a danger of extinction. Our current dependence on energy requires a steady burning of carbon based resources to provide a stable supply of said energy. How can we maintain our current needs while planning for the future?

Solution: Current carbon burning technology has become much cleaner, with respect to pollutants, with the advent of scrubbing systems and the natural gas power generation systems. Nuclear power has become much safer and can now be deployed in small plants which are cheaper than previous plants. Home power generation in the form of solar panels can be used to supplement and reduce primary power grid usage. continued research will produce more effective and reliable sources of energy and enhanced methods for energy production. Thus the reasonable solution would be:

1. Outfit all existing carbon burning generation plants with the existing cleaner tech.

2. Implement nuclear plants as much as possible.

3. Implement solar panels on new housing.

4. Invest heavily into research for more appealing/safer means of generating power and implement discoveries ASAP.

5. Watch CO2 levels come under control

Now...all this assumes rational thought. We must accept that no matter what we do to maintain our need for energy, we will produce some negative consequences. Disposal of spent Uranium rods for instance. But these steps can be taken, would produce favourable results and have the added benefit of not causing a mad panic among the population and not cause an inflationary dump on the public.

Problem solved...and without the need to punish the general public.

Next...if you wish...we can tackle the ranching and farming problems?

Edited August 25, 2023 by Nationalist

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

No it is not "complicated" at all. You choose to complicate it.

Problem: CO2 emissions have been found to create a greenhouse effect on the planet and is believed to be introducing a danger of extinction. Our current dependence on energy requires a steady burning of carbon based resources to provide a stable supply of said energy. How can we maintain our current needs while planning for the future?

Solution: Current carbon burning technology has become much cleaner, with respect to pollutants, with the advent of scrubbing systems and the natural gas power generation systems. Nuclear power has become much safer and can now be deployed in small plants which are cheaper that previous plants. Home power generation in the form of solar panels can be used to supplement and reduce primary power grid usage. continued research will produce more effective and reliable sources of energy and enhanced methods for energy production. Thus the reasonable solution would be:

1. Outfit all existing carbon burning generation plants with the existing cleaner tech.

2. Implement nuclear plants as much as possible.

3. Invest heavily into research for more appealing/safer means of generating power and implement discoveries ASAP.

4. Watch CO2 levels come under control

Now...all this assumes rational thought. We must accept that no matter what we do to maintain our need for energy, we will produce some negative consequences. Disposal of spent Uranium rods for instance. But these steps can be taken, would produce favourable results and have the added benefit of not causing a mad panic among the population and no cause an inflationary dump on the public.

Problem solved...and without the need to punish the general public.

Next...if you wish...we can tackle the ranching and farming problems?

All good ideas, but in order to have your plans make a difference they would have to be implemented worldwide.

I think that would prove to be somewhat complicated.

[West]

The issue is a breakdown in community and loss of self reliance. Back in the day you used to have baseball games with your neighbors, BBQs etc. 

Now everything needs a permit. 

Look at the wildfires.. you can't stay to defend your homes that's up to the government to decide which to save

So in a way I agree with Mike but the government has driven the wedge and put up unnecessary barriers 

Edited August 25, 2023 by West

[Nationalist]

23 minutes ago, Hodad said:

I would disagree here. A sizeable constituency on one side, likely through a combination of natural drift and manipulation, have reached the point where they utterly reject even the notion of objective reality.

All the traditional components of reality have been undermined, disparaged and dismissed.No data can sway them because no data can be trusted. No news can be trusted. No institutions can be trusted. No schools can be trusted. And on and on. Indeed, anything or anyone that fails the momentary purity test of subservience to a charismatic leader is tossed by the wayside--even those once considered pillars of the movement. Everything contrary is another conspiracy in the victimhood narrative. It's religion, but reason.

Many things in politics are a "both sides" issue, but this isn't one of them. 

As for a way back from the brink, I think a Republicans are going to have to cut off the gangrenous bits and rebuild by appealing to moderates and independents. They're going to have to be willing to lose some elections to save the republic. They can't just keep courting and catering to the crazies to stay competitive numerically. It's not a winning strategy and only doom lies down that road. Frankly, a rebuild wouldn't take all that long. They just need to find the backbone to make the hard choice.

And THIS... @Michael Hardner...is WHY we fail so miserably.

There is no "we" for folks like this. And admittedly, this mentality is now prominent on both sides of the fence. War of the cultures. War of social hatred. War of the incredibly small minded. And this includes all of us. Our fine poster Hodad...me...and even you Mike.

Which brings us all to the crux of the problem "we the people" have. We the people...refuse to work together and the very ideas of cooperation and compromise...have become abhorrent to most.

War NEVER produces favourable results. But we the people are at war...with ourselves.

Gee...does that sound rational to anybody?

12 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

All good ideas, but in order to have your plans make a difference they would have to be implemented worldwide.

I think that would prove to be somewhat complicated.

Not really. Those nations who refuse to implement...get isolated and starve till they decide to cooperate.

There's an old saying..."Simple is best". And it generally is.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Nationalist

[Nationalist]

12 minutes ago, West said:

The issue is a breakdown in community and loss of self reliance. Back in the day you used to have baseball games with your neighbors, BBQs etc. 

Now everything needs a permit. 

Look at the wildfires.. you can't stay to defend your homes that's up to the government to decide which to save

So in a way I agree with Mike but the government has driven the wedge and put up unnecessary barriers 

This is also true. We have WAY over regulated ourselves.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

So the answer is to abolish it then.

---
I'll be giving short answers to excessively simple points, and longer answers to people who have put some thought into the problem.  If you're posting nonsense I'll continue to ignore.

I don't know what this is but it's not a good breakdown.  Consumer Culture as we know it speaks to 20th century rise of mass media and advertising... not buying an apple out of a barrel from the general store.

You don't know the Communist Manifesto and the parallels to current Liberal positions?

Sure ya do...

[Deluge]

57 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

All good ideas, but in order to have your plans make a difference they would have to be implemented worldwide.

I think that would prove to be somewhat complicated.

That's why it's best to stick with what works, and fossil fuels works. 

[myata]

41 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Which brings us all to the crux of the problem "we the people" have. We the people...refuse to work together and the very ideas of cooperation and compromise...have become abhorrent to most.

There are many facets of this problem, but all seem to be somehow related to binary mentality. You either have to love the thing, absolutely adore it and unconditionally or hate it. Mass marketing maybe, culture and media all bought into and propagating this unnatural super- and over emotionality. Job and money above all, the second aspect; nothing else seems to be more important; even if its for the love and family, still has to be job job job and stuff stuff stuff, somehow. And the politics of course. Binary politics don't help the problem one single bit. It just makes no sense in the modern world. Problems are complex, multifaceted and with many causes and just to approach understanding them one would need input from many sides. Somehow we cannot seem to get it.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Deluge said:

Without even a discussion.

Leftism is about destruction, and ONLY destruction - it needs to go away. 

 

Ironically, it is YOU who is calling for destruction ^HERE.

And a completely unrealistic "solution." LMAO

[robosmith]

14 hours ago, West said:

The issue is a breakdown in community and loss of self reliance. Back in the day you used to have baseball games with your neighbors, BBQs etc. 

Now everything needs a permit. 

Look at the wildfires.. you can't stay to defend your homes that's up to the government to decide which to save

So in a way I agree with Mike but the government has driven the wedge and put up unnecessary barriers 

IF ^this is accurate (and not delusional), things are VERY different in Canada than here.

We have baseball fields everywhere that can be used any time they are empty (which is a lot) and people have NO PERMITS to BBQ (I do that any time).

IF people are stupid, they can risk their lives to fight their house fire with their garden hose, and no one will drag them out.

Edited August 26, 2023 by robosmith