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2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s because back then CADPAT-AR hadn’t been rolled out yet so elites got special purchase AR camo drom other countries while rank and file just had their TWs. The CAF was slow-walking the AR rollout just like they’re slow-walking MT

 

Multicam looks lighter than MT and doesn’t appear to have a multidirectional pattern, it appears to have a horizontal bias to me    I suppose some day when MT is actually in use we will see some good side by side comparisons  

 

I don't actually think it is a question of slow walking

I would suggest that Canadian industry simply cannot produce the quantities required

because these are custom products only for the CF

there is no impetus for industry to expand its production to supply such a tiny military

so it's very small scale by defence contractor terms

this is another reason why CANSOF uses Multicam equipment

so they can just buy OTS from the US without having to suffer the shortages with the rest of the CF

this is why General Vance wanted to switch the whole CF to Multicam

this is why Denmark has switched its entire military Multicam

the RCMP uses Multicam, they're not going to put up with shortages like the military does

because when you are a tiny military, you cannot generate economies of scale

standardizing with the American market solves the problem of chronic shortages therein

Edited by Dougie93
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1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

See if camo is working, look at camo'd person through squinted eyes.  

You might have all the fancy 'tech' stuff for seeing enemy/game animal, but when you finally spot that group of Bighorn rams across that two mile valley and realize that they are watching you, you'll know what good eyesight is.

when you're talking about the infantry

it really comes down to shades of light and dark

CADPAT-TW is the colour of the trees

but when you are conducting an infiltration or stalk in the infantry, you are not up in the trees

you are crawling on the ground

because military objectives tend to be in open ground

it is a defensive position, or a compound, or a building, or an airfield

it's not deep in the woods, it's out in the fields, so you will have to crawl all the way

and the ground is not dark green like CADPAT-TW

the ground is either light fresh grass, or brown dry grass, or even sandy

and these activities are generally conducted in low light conditions

so what you spot with CADPAT-TW  : is these dark blobs crawling across the lighter ground

the company that made the camo used the trees to design the pattern

because they did not understand that up in the trees are not where the troops actually operate

hence you end up with Relish Cam, it looks like a bottle of relish

which does not actually blend into the terrain where the troops are trying to be stealthy

don't think about spotting things in daylight

think about what it all looks like at night

there's no colours, it's just shades of light & dark

you can't see anything in the woods, it's pitch black, only sound gives you away there

but in order to reach the objective, you're going to have to leave the treeline

into the open ground beyond

Recce owns the night

Edited by Dougie93
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378178654_694173242750399_71303475624109

3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment ; Snipers in CADPAT-MT dress with Ghillie suits

the rifles are Canadian Prairie Gun Works C14 Timberwolf MRSW ( .338 Lapua Magnum )

and American McMillan C-15 Tac-50 LRSW ( .50 Browning )

note the British Lowa Zephyr Close Quarters Combat boots

originally designed for the British 22nd Special Air Service Regiment

( not standard issue, have to be purchased by the troops ; $400 CAD )

generally considered to be best in the world

Victoria Regina Imperatrix

Edited by Dougie93
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13 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

.300 Weatherby vs .338 Lapua . . . . Any of the armed forces taught 'off hand' shooting or instinct shooting?

.300 Weatherby is higher velocity ( 3200 fps ) but lower energy ( 4000 lb - ft )

.338 Lapua is lower velocity ( 2900 fps ) but delivers 20% more energy ( 5000 lb-ft )

military marksmanship instruction is all off hand

but the military employs suppressive fire, shooting to keep the enemy's heads down, which is more instinctive

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On 9/16/2023 at 8:33 AM, Dougie93 said:

378178654_694173242750399_71303475624109

3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment ; Snipers in CADPAT-MT dress with Ghillie suits

the rifles are Canadian Prairie Gun Works C14 Timberwolf MRSW ( .338 Lapua Magnum )

and American McMillan C-15 Tac-50 LRSW ( .50 Browning )

note the British Lowa Zephyr Close Quarters Combat boots

originally designed for the British 22nd Special Air Service Regiment

( not standard issue, have to be purchased by the troops ; $400 CAD )

generally considered to be best in the world

Victoria Regina Imperatrix

Picture didn’t load 

Canadian military sets stage for purchase of drones and Hellfire missiles; program could cost up to $5 billion

“Following contract award by the end of this fiscal year, we expect the first delivery in 2028.”

Published Sep 22, 2023  •  Last updated 1 day ago  •  3 minute read

 

MQ-9 Reaper drone Hellfire missileAn MQ-9 Reaper remotely piloted drone aircraft fires a Hellfire missile during testing on Aug. 30 in the United States. Photo by US Air Force /HANDOUT

The Canadian military has set the stage for its purchase of a fleet of armed drones by requesting the United States provide it with 219 Hellfire missiles as part of an overall program that could be worth up to $5 billion.

Canada, the U.S. government and American drone manufacturer General Atomics are in the final stages of the purchase of a fleet of MQ-9 Reaper drones that will be operated from a command centre in Ottawa. A contract is expected to be in place by next spring, if not earlier, military and defence industry officials say.

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In the meantime, the U.S. government announced Sept. 15 that Canada intended to buy 219 Hellfire missiles and assorted other weapons and equipment for the Reaper drones.

That purchase is worth more than $400 million. The money is expected to come from the budget earmarked for the Canadian military’s drone project. That overall program could cost up to $5 billion, according to National Defence estimates.

The U.S. government in a news release noted that the proposed sale of the Hellfire missiles “will support the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by helping to improve the military capability of Canada, a NATO ally that is an important force for ensuring political stability and economic progress, and a contributor to military, peacekeeping and humanitarian operations around the world.”

The U.S. also pointed out that the missile deal would improve Canada’s ability to meet current and future threats by allowing for drone patrols in its northern arctic region. In addition, it would allow Canada to fulfill its missions with NATO and the North American Aerospace Defence command (NORAD), according to the U.S. government release.

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Canada’s planned competition for a drone fleet hit a snag in May 2022, when one of the two firms capable of providing such equipment decided to drop out of the competition.

That left General Atomics, which submitted its proposal in August 2022, National Defence spokesperson Jessica Lamirande said.

“Should the finalization phase conclude successfully, contract award is expected within this fiscal year,” she said. “Following contract award by the end of this fiscal year, we expect the first delivery in 2028.”

The Liberal government outlined its plan to purchase armed drones in its 2017 defence policy paper. The aircraft will give the military the ability to conduct surveillance and gather intelligence on overseas missions as well as to attack targets with a variety of missiles and bombs. The Canadian Forces also noted the new capability would give it the capability to use the drones for domestic missions, such as monitoring forest fires as well as public demonstrations.

The MQ-9 Reaper, a more powerful and larger version of the General Atomics Predator drone, has been used extensively in the Pentagon’s controversial program of targeted killings of Islamic extremists and other U.S. enemies. Critics point out that more than 2,000 innocent civilians have been killed during those attacks.

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The Canadian drones would be capable of being armed for overseas operations. “At all times, they will be operated by qualified RCAF pilots in conformance with all aeronautical rules and regulations and in compliance with rules of engagement and laws of armed conflict,” Lamirande said.

In 2021, then RCAF commander Lt.-Gen. Al Meinzinger told The Canadian Press news service that there a ground control centre for the drones would be located in Ottawa.

The actual aircraft would be located in detachments in eastern and western Canada, but specific locations have not yet been revealed by the Canadian Forces.

The drone force will need around 300 personnel, including pilots, technicians and maintainers.

The Canadian Forces has tried for years to get its own fleet of drones capable of operating at longer ranges. During the Libyan war in 2011, senior Canadian defence leaders pitched the idea of spending up to $600 million for armed Predators for that conflict.

Documents obtained by this newspaper showed that military leaders saw the Libyan war as a possible way to kick-start their drone program. The war, however, was in its final stages when the proposal was made and the plan didn’t receive approval from the Conservative government.

During the Afghan war, the Canadian government approved the lease of Israeli-built drones. Those unarmed aircraft operated out of the Kandahar airfield.

 

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/canadian-military-sets-stage-for-purchase-of-drones-and-hellfire-missiles-program-could-cost-up-to-5-billionI’

 

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44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

 

Canadian military sets stage for purchase of drones and Hellfire missiles; program could cost up to $5 billion

“Following contract award by the end of this fiscal year, we expect the first delivery in 2028.”

 

another bad buy from DND

MQ-9 is already thirty year old technology, threshold of being obsolete

this is like buying the CF-101 Voodoo, just before the F-15 Eagle set the new standard

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On 9/16/2023 at 8:33 AM, Dougie93 said:

the rifles are Canadian Prairie Gun Works C14 Timberwolf MRSW ( .338 Lapua Magnum )

C14 was replaced last year with the new C21, the Finland-made Sako TRG M10 Sniper Weapon System.  This was surprising to me at the time, given that the C14 was only adopted in 2005 and based on news coverage and PR I thought it was well-regarded. Apparently the Sako is just better amd you can also switch between .338 lapua magnum (8.6mm) and .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO).  Canada donated a sizeable number of sniper rifles to Ukraine last year, some reports specifically mention the PGW Timberwolf and another pledge of sniper rifles was made earlier this year so I suspect that is the fate of the C14 inventory. 
 

https://canadianarmytoday.com/snipers-set-sights-on-new-rifle/

Edited by BeaverFever
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2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

C14 was replaced last year with the new C21, the Finland-made Sako TRG M10 Sniper Weapon System.  This was surprising to me at the time, given that the C14 was only adopted in 2005 and based on news coverage and PR I thought it was a well-regarded. Apparently the Sako is just better amd you can also switch between .338 lapua magnum (8.6mm) and .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO).  Canada donated a sizeable number of sniper rifles to Ukraine last year, some reports specifically mention the PGW Timberwolf and another pledge of sniper rifles was made earlier this year so I suspect that is the fate of the C14 inventory. 
 

https://canadianarmytoday.com/snipers-set-sights-on-new-rifle/

the C-14 was the operational sniper rifle, while the C-3 was used for training both are being replaced with this C-21... i just wonder if they had the foresight to buy both barrels..it sounds like common sense but this is the Canadian military...

I will say this the rifle is just one part of the entire sniper systems, so although they are not mentioned, things like optics, day and night, ballistic computers, wind measuring instruments, range finders, or any of the other gouchy stuff that goes into a sniper system. did they upgrade any of that...

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2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

the C-14 was the operational sniper rifle, while the C-3 was used for training both are being replaced with this C-21... i just wonder if they had the foresight to buy both barrels..it sounds like common sense but this is the Canadian military...

I will say this the rifle is just one part of the entire sniper systems, so although they are not mentioned, things like optics, day and night, ballistic computers, wind measuring instruments, range finders, or any of the other gouchy stuff that goes into a sniper system. did they upgrade any of that...

I didn’t read anything about the ancillary kit but it sounds like have 2 different sized barrels was the main reason for the purchase. 

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On 9/25/2023 at 7:54 PM, BeaverFever said:

C14 was replaced last year with the new C21, the Finland-made Sako TRG M10 Sniper Weapon System.  This was surprising to me at the time, given that the C14 was only adopted in 2005

https://canadianarmytoday.com/snipers-set-sights-on-new-rifle/

 

TRG M10 is operated by thirty countries

the CF is juts trying to keep up with the Jones'

new sniper rifles is something they can buy without attracting too much attention from the anti-military Canadian media

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1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

 

TRG M10 is operated by thirty countries

the CF is juts trying to keep up with the Jones'

new sniper rifles is something they can buy without attracting too much attention from the anti-military Canadian media

When it comes to sniping the Canadian Armed Forces are the Jones’.
 

As I’m sure you know 3 of the top 6 (until recently 3 of the top 5) all-time combat sniping world records were set by Canadian Armed Forces snipers in Afghanistan and Iraq which is pretty amazing when you consider the relatively small size of the Canadian sniper force the relatively short period of time in which the records were set.  Somehow the Canadian army managed to build a world-beating sniper capability that is widely recognized worldwide as currently being the best of the best. 
 

As you suggest that’s probably because it’s a small group and compared to big ticket items vehicles and aircraft, the cost of things like quality sniper rifles and associated gear, not to mention the costs associated with training and and exercises are relatively inexpensive and below the radar of both the public and bureaucrats 

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Our sniper training is a pretty tough course with a high attrition rate. but there are Regular Infantry snipers, who don't have access to all the latest and greatest kit...then there is SOF sniper who operate at a different level because the equipment they are using is the latest state of the art stuff..

.i went to observe an inter national sniper competition held in Gagetown, everyone had their gear laid out for everyone to see, it was sad to see the difference between the other nations or police forces, night and day with the stuff we were using.... and the Infantry snipers were using  bottom tier gear for sure for sure...and our SOF guys had stuff not even on the market yet...That shot in Iraq was made by equipment that was not on the market yet...Shawn Ryan pod cast did an interview with the sniper that made that shot sorry i forgot his name, JTF guy, kicked out for not getting his covid shot.......and he explains some of the gear they used... 

That being said not many Commanders don't know how to use or employ snipers, yes it is a very nice element to have , but for the most part they are not used right...thats probably the most common complaint i heard while in the BN from snipers...so they are basically on their own for most exercises, or used as something they are not made for...like traffic control points or additional recce guys with nice weapons' and better optics..

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3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Wasn’t one of those sniping records set by a PPCLI sniper in the early months of the Afghanistan mission?

Ya, he was supporting American Operations on OP anaconda

Yes, he used a Tac 50...which is still used, but there are much better rifles on the market right now... i think it took him 3 or 4 shots before he actually got a kill, to be honest he took a great deal of skill and patience to make that kill...that and the enemy cooperated as much as anyone could...instead of getting to cover and digging a deep hole, he waited around, thinking there is no way this guy is going to shot me...

Edited by Army Guy
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19 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

When it comes to sniping the Canadian Armed Forces are the Jones’.

As I’m sure you know 3 of the top 6 (until recently 3 of the top 5) all-time combat sniping world records were set by Canadian Armed Forces snipers in Afghanistan and Iraq which is pretty amazing when you consider the relatively small size of the Canadian sniper force the relatively short period of time in which the records were set.  Somehow the Canadian army managed to build a world-beating sniper capability that is widely recognized worldwide as currently being the best of the best.

it has more to do with technology and opportunity

the introduction of the McMillan Tac-50 in the Shah-I-Kot Valley

the PPCLI had the new rifle, and targets at ranges which could not have been engaged before the Tac-50

then in Iraq, JTF-2 was fielding a new type of scope, with a prism attachment

this allowed them to fire semi direct, you're looking at the target, with the rifle pointing up into the sky

shooting is not the hard part of being a sniper

with a couple days of training, you could be hitting at world record distances using a Tac-50 with the prism

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5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Wasn’t one of those sniping records set by a PPCLI sniper in the early months of the Afghanistan mission?

Rob Furlong

who quit the Army in disgust after the chain of command accused him of committing "war crimes"

one of the world record holding JTF2 snipers, Dallas Alexander

was thrown out of the Army for refusing to take the Covid vaccine

925928.jpg

FpLyr3QWABcWif-.jpg

Edited by Dougie93
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34 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

with a couple days of training, you could be hitting at world record distances using a Tac-50 with the prism

Then why aren’t other militaries the ones racking up the world records?  US military is exponentially larger in budget and personnel and the US has basically been in constant armed conflict somewhere in the world since before their country was founded. Yet Canada, with its comparatively limited military size and combat involvement holds half or more of the combat sniper records (depending on who you ask)?   The most current “top 5” sniper record list I’ve seen includes 3 Canadians (2 of whom were PPCLI in Anaconda, Furlong and Perry) , 1 Brit and 1 Ukrainian.  The top American is back at number 7. I thought I had read something fairly recently saying that the Perry, the Canadian at #5 got knocked down to #6 but I can’t find it now. 

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1 minute ago, BeaverFever said:

Then why aren’t other militaries the ones racking up the world records?  US military is exponentially larger in budget and personnel and the US has basically been in constant armed conflict somewhere in the world since before their country was founded. Yet Canada, with its comparatively limited military size and combat involvement holds half or more of the combat sniper records (depending on who you ask)?   The most current “top 5” sniper record list I’ve seen includes 3 Canadians (2 of whom were PPCLI in Anaconda, Furlong and Perry) , 1 Brit and 1 Ukrainian.  The top American is back at number 7. I thought I had read something fairly recently saying that the Perry, the Canadian at #5 got knocked down to #6 but I can’t find it now. 

again, shooting is not the hard part of being a sniper

it all comes down to two engagements where the Canadians were in the right place at the right time

with the right equipment

this is the world record shot right here

it's actually two shots

Dallas Alexander and another JTF2 sniper both shoot at the same time

with the McMillian Tac-50 using the prism attachment on the scope

one shot misses, the other one hits

who killed the target, which of the shots hit and which misses  is not known

team effort, shared responsibility

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