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Analysis: Feds hand Irving $463 million more from taxpayers for troubled warship program

Among the requirements for winning the 2011 bid was that the shipyard had the capability to build the vessels and taxpayers wouldn’t need to contribute funding

David Pugliese  •  Ottawa Citizen
Published Aug 15, 2023  •  Last updated 19 hours ago  •  3 minute read
 
A February 2019 photo shows Lockheed Martin Canada's design of new Canadian Surface Combatants to be built at Irving Shipbuilding's Halifax shipyard.

A February 2019 photo shows Lockheed Martin Canada's design of new Canadian Surface Combatants to be built at Irving Shipbuilding's Halifax shipyard. Photo by Darren Calabrese /THE CANADIAN PRESS

Last week taxpayers gave almost half a billion dollars to a shipyard owned by one of Canada’s richest families.

The federal government’s news release on this new funding was barely reported on, having come in the middle of summer, when few are paying attention.

The payment of an extra $463 million to Irving Shipbuilding is to allow the firm to modernize its Halifax-area facilities so the company can build the Canadian Surface Combatants (CSC).

Although the firm will be making a profit on the construction of the new warships, it had requested that the public fund the modernization of its private facilities.

That money, however, marks a significant reversal in the government’s official National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Irving’s shipyard was selected in 2011 as the winner of a multi-billion dollar program to construct the country’s new fleets of warships. Among the requirements for winning the bid was that the yard had the capability to build the vessels and taxpayers wouldn’t need to contribute funding to outfit facilities for the task.

If a yard didn’t have the ability to build the CSC, it wouldn’t get the contract.

Federal politicians, as well as defence analysts and think-tanks that receive funding from military companies and government, all boasted about that stipulation as an example of the cost effectiveness of the strategy.

The Liberals could have used Irving’s lack of capability to build the CSC as a way out of project that has been described by critics as endless money pit with little accountability or oversight.

https://nationalpost.com/news/national/defence-watch/analysis-irving-gets-463-million-more-from-taxpayers-for-troubled-warship-program/wcm/e850128f-37af-47fb-8fef-afd649145826

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8 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Analysis: Feds hand Irving $463 million more from taxpayers for troubled warship program

Among the requirements for winning the 2011 bid was that the shipyard had the capability to build the vessels and taxpayers wouldn’t need to contribute funding

David Pugliese  •  Ottawa Citizen
Published Aug 15, 2023  •  Last updated 19 hours ago  •  3 minute read
 
A February 2019 photo shows Lockheed Martin Canada's design of new Canadian Surface Combatants to be built at Irving Shipbuilding's Halifax shipyard.

A February 2019 photo shows Lockheed Martin Canada's design of new Canadian Surface Combatants to be built at Irving Shipbuilding's Halifax shipyard. Photo by Darren Calabrese /THE CANADIAN PRESS

 

Last week taxpayers gave almost half a billion dollars to a shipyard owned by one of Canada’s richest families.

 

The federal government’s news release on this new funding was barely reported on, having come in the middle of summer, when few are paying attention.

 

The payment of an extra $463 million to Irving Shipbuilding is to allow the firm to modernize its Halifax-area facilities so the company can build the Canadian Surface Combatants (CSC).

 

Although the firm will be making a profit on the construction of the new warships, it had requested that the public fund the modernization of its private facilities.

 

That money, however, marks a significant reversal in the government’s official National Shipbuilding Strategy.

 

Irving’s shipyard was selected in 2011 as the winner of a multi-billion dollar program to construct the country’s new fleets of warships. Among the requirements for winning the bid was that the yard had the capability to build the vessels and taxpayers wouldn’t need to contribute funding to outfit facilities for the task.

 

If a yard didn’t have the ability to build the CSC, it wouldn’t get the contract.

 

Federal politicians, as well as defence analysts and think-tanks that receive funding from military companies and government, all boasted about that stipulation as an example of the cost effectiveness of the strategy.

 

The Liberals could have used Irving’s lack of capability to build the CSC as a way out of project that has been described by critics as endless money pit with little accountability or oversight.

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/national/defence-watch/analysis-irving-gets-463-million-more-from-taxpayers-for-troubled-warship-program/wcm/e850128f-37af-47fb-8fef-afd649145826

 

So at this point what are the options? Cancel the project, eat the sunk costs to date, then start a new $100Bn decades-long Halifax class replacement boondoggle from scratch? I have a feeling that no matter how much of an absolute sh1tshow this project is, we have to stay the course at this point. Unless we can buy decent off the shelf or second hand warships that are fully modern (or can be quickly and easily easily fully modernized) amd are ready to go. 

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7 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

So at this point what are the options? Cancel the project, eat the sunk costs to date, then start a new $100Bn decades-long Halifax class replacement boondoggle from scratch? I have a feeling that no matter how much of an absolute sh1tshow this project is, we have to stay the course at this point. Unless we can buy decent off the shelf or second hand warships that are fully modern (or can be quickly and easily easily fully modernized) amd are ready to go. 

In my experience in the procurement offices, we knew this program would be a $hit show. It was, along with the Coast Guard ships, supposed to bring money to Halifax, Vitcoria and of course, mostly Quebec.

The the Navy began with scope creep. They saw what was available elsewhere and wanted it incorporated into their ships. The problem with that was sometimes (often) the ship had to be re-designed and in many cases, work already done had be undone to make the new requirements fit. 

While that sounds easy, it is a huge effort to make even a small change once design and drawings have been approved. All that leads to delays and extra costs.

They could have gotten used ships and of course, other shipyards would have done this far quicker.

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RCAF aircraft, CAF personnel respond to wildfires in NWT as state of emergency declared

By Dayna Fedy-MacDonald | August 17, 2023

Estimated reading time 6 minutes, 41 seconds. 

53120888526_ce1b85af11_o-1024x683.jpg Canadian Armed Forces soldiers from 2e Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment, arriving in Yellowknife via a CC-150 Polaris aircraft to respond to wildfires in the Northwest Territories on Aug. 14, 2023. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

As wildfires continue to burn out of control in the Northwest Territories (NWT) of Canada, Municipal and Community Affairs Minister Shane Thompson declared a Territorial State of Emergency on Aug. 15 to allow the government “to acquire and deploy the necessary resources” to manage the fires and protect residents.

Some of those resources include Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) aircraft, as well as Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel, who began collaborating with the Government of the Northwest Territories (GNWT) on Aug. 13 to determine how best to assist with response efforts.

53120282452_8651424cd4_o-1024x819.jpg WO Jason Lapierre directs the off-loading of cargo from a CC-130J Hercules aircraft at Yellowknife Airport on Aug. 14, 2023. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

The government requested assistance from the CAF for a period of two weeks, beginning on Aug. 15, which may be extended if necessary. The request was approved by Canada’s new defence minister Bill Blair.

As of the morning of Aug. 17, there were 236 active fires across the NWT, with a total of 268 fires this year. Those wildfires have been responsible for burning 2.1 million hectares year to date.

“We find ourselves in a crisis situation, and our government is using every tool available to assist,” said Thompson in a press release.

53121292465_22ec6bc531_o-1024x731.jpg Capt Liz Campbell of 440 Transport Squadron unloads cargo off a CH-146 Griffon helicopter at Yellowknife Airport. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

In an email to Skies, a Department of National Defence (DND) spokesperson said roughly 120 CAF personnel arrived in Yellowknife from 2nd Canadian Division on the evening of Aug. 14, ready to assist with wildfire management efforts.

About 100 of those members are working under the direction of GNWT Wildfire Management to aid in Type III firefighting roles on the ground, such as fire turnover, mop up, and hotspot dowsing. The remainder “will work either in a planning and coordination function with Territorial officials, or supporting efforts of their personnel,” the DND spokesperson said.

53120282407_9317356d97_o-1024x683.jpg A CH-146 Griffon landing at the Yellowknife Airport on Aug. 14, 2023. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

Additionally, five RCAF aircraft — both fixed- and rotary-wing — are supporting mobility and logistical tasks, as well as emergency evacuations. Four of the aircraft are based in Yellowknife, including a CC-130J Hercules, CC-138 Twin Otter, and two CH-146 Griffon helicopters. An additional Griffon based in Edmonton is on 12 hours’ notice to move.

Two additional CC-130H Hercules aircraft were used to airlift a total of 100 residents from Hay River and Fort Smith, NWT, to Fort McMurray, Alberta, on the morning of Aug. 14. Those regions have been declared “at risk” by the GNWT due to wildfires burning in the South Slave region.

367744641_668899431936788_12149586231565 On Aug. 14, an RCAF CC-130H Hercules aircraft airlifted residents of Fort Smith, NWT, to Fort McMurray, Alberta, while also supporting the evacuation of Hay River, NWT. CAF Photo

“Yellowknife is also at an increased risk due to a wildfire approaching from the west,” the government said.

“Wildfire situations in the South Slave and North Slave regions are rapidly evolving, and the needs on the ground are changing quickly.”

Over the last few days, CAF members have been constructing firebreaks in the Yellowknife and Dettah areas to slow or stop the spread of surrounding wildfires.

53122622011_7e56a3fa1c_o-1024x683.jpg CAF soldiers from 2e Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment, and 5 Combat Engineer Regiment head to the forest behind Parker Recreation Field in Yellowknife to work on a firebreak on Aug. 16, 2023. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

“As the situation develops, we will scale and adjust as necessary to provide the best support to the NWT,” DND said.

View the current wildfire situation across Canada here.

 

https://skiesmag.com/news/rcaf-aircraft-caf-personnel-respond-wildfires-nwt-state-emergency-declared/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-top-story&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=top-story&utm_content=V1
 

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5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

RCAF aircraft, CAF personnel respond to wildfires in NWT as state of emergency declared

By Dayna Fedy-MacDonald | August 17, 2023

Estimated reading time 6 minutes, 41 seconds. 

53120888526_ce1b85af11_o-1024x683.jpg Canadian Armed Forces soldiers from 2e Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment, arriving in Yellowknife via a CC-150 Polaris aircraft to respond to wildfires in the Northwest Territories on Aug. 14, 2023. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

As wildfires continue to burn out of control in the Northwest Territories (NWT) of Canada, Municipal and Community Affairs Minister Shane Thompson declared a Territorial State of Emergency on Aug. 15 to allow the government “to acquire and deploy the necessary resources” to manage the fires and protect residents.

Some of those resources include Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) aircraft, as well as Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel, who began collaborating with the Government of the Northwest Territories (GNWT) on Aug. 13 to determine how best to assist with response efforts.

53120282452_8651424cd4_o-1024x819.jpg WO Jason Lapierre directs the off-loading of cargo from a CC-130J Hercules aircraft at Yellowknife Airport on Aug. 14, 2023. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

The government requested assistance from the CAF for a period of two weeks, beginning on Aug. 15, which may be extended if necessary. The request was approved by Canada’s new defence minister Bill Blair.

As of the morning of Aug. 17, there were 236 active fires across the NWT, with a total of 268 fires this year. Those wildfires have been responsible for burning 2.1 million hectares year to date.

“We find ourselves in a crisis situation, and our government is using every tool available to assist,” said Thompson in a press release.

53121292465_22ec6bc531_o-1024x731.jpg Capt Liz Campbell of 440 Transport Squadron unloads cargo off a CH-146 Griffon helicopter at Yellowknife Airport. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

In an email to Skies, a Department of National Defence (DND) spokesperson said roughly 120 CAF personnel arrived in Yellowknife from 2nd Canadian Division on the evening of Aug. 14, ready to assist with wildfire management efforts.

About 100 of those members are working under the direction of GNWT Wildfire Management to aid in Type III firefighting roles on the ground, such as fire turnover, mop up, and hotspot dowsing. The remainder “will work either in a planning and coordination function with Territorial officials, or supporting efforts of their personnel,” the DND spokesperson said.

53120282407_9317356d97_o-1024x683.jpg A CH-146 Griffon landing at the Yellowknife Airport on Aug. 14, 2023. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

Additionally, five RCAF aircraft — both fixed- and rotary-wing — are supporting mobility and logistical tasks, as well as emergency evacuations. Four of the aircraft are based in Yellowknife, including a CC-130J Hercules, CC-138 Twin Otter, and two CH-146 Griffon helicopters. An additional Griffon based in Edmonton is on 12 hours’ notice to move.

Two additional CC-130H Hercules aircraft were used to airlift a total of 100 residents from Hay River and Fort Smith, NWT, to Fort McMurray, Alberta, on the morning of Aug. 14. Those regions have been declared “at risk” by the GNWT due to wildfires burning in the South Slave region.

367744641_668899431936788_12149586231565 On Aug. 14, an RCAF CC-130H Hercules aircraft airlifted residents of Fort Smith, NWT, to Fort McMurray, Alberta, while also supporting the evacuation of Hay River, NWT. CAF Photo

“Yellowknife is also at an increased risk due to a wildfire approaching from the west,” the government said.

“Wildfire situations in the South Slave and North Slave regions are rapidly evolving, and the needs on the ground are changing quickly.”

Over the last few days, CAF members have been constructing firebreaks in the Yellowknife and Dettah areas to slow or stop the spread of surrounding wildfires.

53122622011_7e56a3fa1c_o-1024x683.jpg CAF soldiers from 2e Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment, and 5 Combat Engineer Regiment head to the forest behind Parker Recreation Field in Yellowknife to work on a firebreak on Aug. 16, 2023. MCpl Alana Morin/CAF Photo

“As the situation develops, we will scale and adjust as necessary to provide the best support to the NWT,” DND said.

View the current wildfire situation across Canada here.

 

https://skiesmag.com/news/rcaf-aircraft-caf-personnel-respond-wildfires-nwt-state-emergency-declared/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-top-story&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=top-story&utm_content=V1
 

As I said in another post. No new equipment because when tasked, in this case Aid to civil Power, it comes out of the budget assigned. So, the Military has to do this and more parts and extra weapons and maintenance suffers.

Don't get me wrong, this is what the Military does for Canadians, all the time, contrary to the belief of some in this thread and rightly so. They work for Canadians all the time.

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17 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

So at this point what are the options? Cancel the project, eat the sunk costs to date, then start a new $100Bn decades-long Halifax class replacement boondoggle from scratch? I have a feeling that no matter how much of an absolute sh1tshow this project is, we have to stay the course at this point. Unless we can buy decent off the shelf or second hand warships that are fully modern (or can be quickly and easily easily fully modernized) amd are ready to go. 

well clearly there aren't a lot of options when the GoC are such obvious cronies of the Irving family

typical Canada, run like a Company Town

but the real question is, can Irving even get the job done ?

Type 26 may simply be beyond their means, resulting in the aforementioned program death spiral

in terms of what are the options then ?

you're probably looking at a downgrade to the OMT Babcock Type 31

and perhaps opening the tender up to include Chantier-Davie, which is the more capable yard

the Danish design is much cheaper and easier to build

with that, and two yards constructing at the same time

you might end up with a one for one replacement of FFH-330 in the 2030's

you could even recover sensors, weapons, IPMS, CMS, from the HCM FELEX program

and transfer them over to the Type 31 to reduce costs

Arrowhead 140 is already in production for the UK, Poland & Indonesia

and three are already operating with the Royal Danish Navy

so there is existing economies of scale, and it's a proven platform already in service

if Canada bought 12, that would be 24 in service, a larger fleet than Type 26

and since Type 31 is 1/5 the cost of Type 26, that fleet is much more likely to grow

does Canada actually need Type 26 with AN/SPY-7 & Mk 41 ?

obviously not, it's just another RCN vanity project, champagne tastes on a beer budget

Type 31 more than meets all of Canada's requirements, at a fraction of the cost

and since Type 31 is so much less complex, Canadian shipyards could actually build them

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Taking back the night for tactical advantage

Aug 15, 2023 | News, Procurement

Taking back the night for tactical advantage

by Ken Pole

 

In its June 2017 defence policy, the federal government used the word “vision” a lot but mostly in a generic contemplative way. However, tucked away on page 36 was a commitment to recapitalizing an outstanding requirement for new “soldier night vision systems.”

It remains a work in progress. The Directorate of Land Requirements (DLR) had identified the need long before the policy paper was released. Now, after years of research and experimentation, a request for proposals could be issued to industry later this year.

“But I temper that by saying that there are a lot of factors involved that are outside of DLR’s influence,” cautioned Captain Marcel Campbell, a member of the Night Vision System Modernization (NVSM) project team, a program that is also addressing Royal Canadian Navy night vision requirements. 

The Army calls the overall effort “a multi-phase hybrid project.” Phase 1 is a hand-held long-range laser range finder. Phase 2 includes the night vision goggles, laser aiming devices and hand-held medium range thermal imagers. Phase 3, involving augmented reality and thermal fusion, is further down the road.

Given the length of the project, is there a risk that technology advances will outpace the written requirements?

“We have established the high-level mandatory requirements based on outperforming an adversary,” Campbell replied, which will in part determine how far out the Army needs to see at night. That in turn will inform the statement of requirements and “give us the flexibility to increase our performance requirements as we approach industry for proposals.”

There’s no gainsaying the importance of night vision technology, which has contributed to various Army operations since the turn of the century, most notably the 2001-2014 mission in Afghanistan.

Since then, in a bid to better understand how the technology has evolved, the Army project team has worked with the infantry battalions of 2 and 5 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Groups in Petawawa and Valcartier, respectively. This “tech watch” included trials of various manufacturers’ products in collaboration with Defence R&D Canada (DRDC). 

The Army’s most common night vision device is the monocular L3 Harris AN-PVS-14, last upgraded 15 years ago. For now, however, the project team isn’t about to scrap what remains an “excellent” product despite its age.

One option is to replace the image intensifier tube, which amplifies low light level images to where they can be seen by the naked eye. This would bring the AN-PVS-14 up to today’s standards in terms of performance.

KCIS2023_970x90.jpg

Campbell confirmed that “we’re also looking into a binocular night vision device.” The binocular helmet-mounted unit offers better depth perception at close range, but “it’s a question of who specifically needs that more expensive binocular solution – it can be twice the price.” 

52652622640_dabfb9216c_o-1024x681.jpg

A soldier with the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, instructs Ukrainian recruits on the operation of the PVS-14 Night Vision Monocular, during Operation Unifier in the United Kingdom in January 2023. Photo: Cpl Eric Greico

 

Field of view is a critical consideration in whatever the Army procures. “The standard is still 40 degrees, but there are some binocular solutions with a slightly wider field,” said Campbell. “However, you’re sacrificing image clarity. By offsetting the two tubes to get that wider field of view, you get a slightly blurrier picture. There are other solutions with four tubes that give you really good peripheral vision, but it’s too costly and not worthwhile for the Army to consider.”

The added weight of four tubes “isn’t worth the added advantage for what we do,” he noted. 

DRDC, which has been deeply involved in the Army’s program, is tapping individual regiments for the advice of experienced personnel on how to proceed, notably about the mono-versus-binocular debate, which Campbell said has been “trialed in relatively realistic scenarios.”

Weight, too, is a concern. Adding more features to a system often means added weight, the last thing soldiers want, even if it’s a minimal increase. “The newer binocular night vision devices do have more weight than the AN-PVS-14, but the added weight is worth the increased capability,” Campbell observed.

He said there are ways to handle increased weight, including counterweights to balance the load. It may seem counterintuitive, but research has suggested that counterweights can reduce torque on a soldier’s neck by reducing the overall burden of the device. 

Another critical component of soldier night vision is the ability to see at long ranges. The Army is looking at two solutions for this requirement. While both systems are built around thermal imagers, they incorporate two different technologies. 

“One is a cooled device for long range. It’s a little bigger, heavier and requires more power,” Campbell explained. The medium-range uncooled device uses a different thermal channel, “so although it’s lighter, it doesn’t reach out as far” and uses different IR wavelengths.

To advance the project to where it is today, Campbell and previous project directors have kept tabs on allies’ night vision options. “We do look at what they have, and we are actually procuring relatively in line with what they’re doing,” he said. “In terms of hand-held thermal imagers, there aren’t too many manufacturers that can produce what we need, and so they sell fairly broadly throughout NATO.”
 

https://canadianarmytoday.com/taking-back-the-night-for-tactical-advantage/

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19 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

So at this point what are the options? Cancel the project, eat the sunk costs to date, then start a new $100Bn decades-long Halifax class replacement boondoggle from scratch? I have a feeling that no matter how much of an absolute sh1tshow this project is, we have to stay the course at this point. Unless we can buy decent off the shelf or second hand warships that are fully modern (or can be quickly and easily easily fully modernized) amd are ready to go. 

Farm it out to the UK. Let BAE build them. They're already building the Type 26 (for $1.2b each not $5b each) so they can just build ours too.

https://www.navalreview.ca/2022/11/uk-orders-second-batch-of-five-type-26-frigates-for-4-2bn/

Edited by I am Groot
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16 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Farm it out to the UK. Let BAE build them. They're already building the Type 26 (for $1.2b each not $5b each) so they can just build ours too.

https://www.navalreview.ca/2022/11/uk-orders-second-batch-of-five-type-26-frigates-for-4-2bn/

obviously not a realistic option for Canadian politicians

all solutions must take into account the Canadian population's demand for porkbarrelling

although the UK probably doesn't have the capacity to build 12 ships for Canada anytime soon

since the UK shipbuilders are simultaneously building both Type 26 & Type 31 frigates for the RN

if you wanted to buy NATO STANAG warships cheap & fast, the place to go is South Korea

the largest and most advanced shipbuilding industry outside of America

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On 8/17/2023 at 8:34 PM, BeaverFever said:

Taking back the night for tactical advantage

 

Night vision has always been a major problem, Not enough of them, what is available was not always in good working order... I remember doing a live night shoot before going over to Afghanistan with only one tube working and the rubber eye pieces where missing off both... we were firing live ammo, it was a good idea to atleast see what we were shooting at... Sgt freaked out when i turned in all my ammo, and was shouting bang bang while moving down the jungle lane, with 8 other guys ....

Spare parts where a problem, the other one is during the day you throw them in your ruck, which is toss every where, and they get broken easily..I remember reading an article that Canada had sent over a huge pile of night vision goggles to Ukraine, the Canadian ex pat who opened up the triwalls said  3/4 of them in very poor shape and 1/2 of them did not work at all...Thats a tell story, becasue units are so short they have to borrow from a multiply of units just to get enough to train on...with shortages of that type what do you think they sent over...this project will take years to see night vision goggles back in soldiers hands... That being said we do have thermal sight units, in few numbers ( less than night vision goggles)big and bulky but they do work very well ...personally every soldier should have a pair including support personal... These projects don't always come up with a solution, and end up being a waste of time and money..much like the tact vest project...which they trailed many different types in combat, the ones the soldiers like or wanted did not make the bid...me like most infantry soldiers purchased a complete tac vest capable of holding up to 12 mags, plus radio, plates, and all the rest of my gear... i spent almost 750.00 US on it...plus extra moly pouches for another 250.00 US...our Canadian supplied tac vest held only 4 mags, and you could not add any pouches ...and was forest cad pat....even the Taliban had better tac vests....

Not sure what tac vests they have now...

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when I joined in the 80's the only NOD was a Vietnam era Starlight Scope

it was the size of a milk jug, and you could barely see anything through it beyond a few dozen meters

it was basically useless, we didn't even bother to carry it, due to the weight

the first time I ever used NVG's was on Recce course, and it was literally amazng

you could look down and see where you were placing your feet

so you could move completely silent even in dense bush,

because stepping on fallen branches is what gives you away in the woods at night

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9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Not sure what tac vests they have now...

the latest vests are from the Rheinmetall Canada Integrated Soldier System Project

Rheinmetall designed the vest to carry their Argus ISS

I don't think Rheinmetall makes the vests, it's probably manufactured by FELLFAB, or maybe Logistik Unicorp

20170724-su14-2017-0846-015.jpg

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19 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Not sure what tac vests they have now...

Sounds like the same one. The most recent article I could find was 3yrs old and said replacement bids were expected soon but since the trail goes cold I expect it never happened.  Now I see that load carriage is planned for 2023-2025

image.jpeg.bc62db5b31f910b2eedcbfc51d91ac72.jpeg

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/dnd-mdn/army/lineofsight/articleimages/2023/02/Soldier_System_Graphic_Black_Background_EN_Feb 2023.pdf

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39 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Sounds like the same one. The most recent article I could find was 3yrs old and said replacement bids were expected soon but since the trail goes cold I expect it never happened.  Now I see that load carriage is planned for 2023-2025

image.jpeg.bc62db5b31f910b2eedcbfc51d91ac72.jpeg

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/dnd-mdn/army/lineofsight/articleimages/2023/02/Soldier_System_Graphic_Black_Background_EN_Feb 2023.pdf

We were still doing trails in 2013, and even then the project was 5 years old...we had told those managing the trails we wanted what the US and UK had, a tac vest with frag vest built into, much easier to put on in a hurry, and take off if you were injured...none of those systems are being looked at today.......Also mentions new small arms, we are sticking with the 5.56...and the US is moving on to the 6.8 cal... 

 

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On 8/19/2023 at 8:46 AM, Dougie93 said:

the latest vests are from the Rheinmetall Canada Integrated Soldier System Project

Rheinmetall designed the vest to carry their Argus ISS

I don't think Rheinmetall makes the vests, it's probably manufactured by FELLFAB, or maybe Logistik Unicorp

20170724-su14-2017-0846-015.jpg

Is that just the tech and devices at this point though?  I don’t see any direct reference to a new vest being chosen, much less delivered 

Edited by BeaverFever
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19 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Is that just the tech and devices at this point though?  I don’t see any direct reference to a new vest being chosen, much less delivered 

the problem is more that there is no one size fits all solution to load carrying for the Infantry

you need a whole range of solutions

sometimes you just need a chest rig

other times you need a chest rig with full belt kit

other times you just need the belt kit

so really it's not about a "replacement vest"

take for example the British Source Virtus system

it's a modular system of systems which can be mixed and matched in a variety of ways

don't think of this as being as simple as a vest

it's called Fighting Order, and that is exponentially more than just a vest

Fighting Order plus body armour is Battle Order

add a Rucksack, that's Marching Order

in the infantry, you are constantly changing the Order to suit the mission

so it all needs to be modular,  flexible, yet integrated

Edited by Dougie93
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6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the problem is more that there is no one size fits all solution to load carrying for the Infantry

you need a whole range of solutions

sometimes you just need a chest rig

other times you need a chest rig with full belt kit

other times you just need the belt kit

so really it's not about a "replacement vest"

take for example the British Source Virtus system

it's a modular system of systems which can be mixed and matched in a variety of ways

don't think of this as being as simple a vest

it's called Fighting Order, and that is exponentially more than just a vest

Fighting Order plus body armour is Battle Order

add a Rucksack, that's Marching Order

I can’t find anything to suggest something like that is in store for Canada unfortunately. There seems to be scant information on the web and much of it isn’t very recent. 

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8 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

I can’t find anything to suggest something like that is in store for Canada unfortunately. There seems to be scant information on the web and much of it isn’t very recent. 

yeah, in the Canadian infantry, you have to go out and buy your own kit

and modify the issued kit where possible

my 82 Pattern Webbing was completely modified, I integrated my own upgrades and extensions

like I had 82 Pattern Mag Pouches made into a chest rig which I could attach or detach from the baseline webbing

I made my own belt kit, sowed my own loops on all the pouches

I sowed Fastex quick release on all the pouches

everything was quick detach, it was basically scalable & modular, as best as homemade can be

then I used a British Berghaus Cyclops internal frame rucksack instead of the useless Canadian 82 pattern ruck

Edited by Dougie93
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44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

 

It will be interesting to see what NATO allies do. If NATO sticks with 5.56 it would be weird if Canada simply copied USA. 

 

only the US Army is adopting 6.8x51mm Sig Sauer ( .270 Fury )

and only the combat arms and special operations forces

most of the US Army will still be issued the M4

so the NATO STANAG calibre is unlikely to change anytime soon

Canadian doctrine is also different from the US Army's latest doctrine

Canadian doctrine is to carry as many rounds as possible, because it is volume of fire which wins the firefight

so Canada is unlikely to switch to 6.8x51mm anytime soon

although CANSOFCOM will probably get some, since they can buy whatever they want

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On 8/20/2023 at 11:02 AM, BeaverFever said:

 

It will be interesting to see what NATO allies do. If NATO sticks with 5.56 it would be weird if Canada simply copied USA. 

 

Not really, when Op Mudusa kicked off and the Battle group had expended all the Canadian ammo in Afghanistan by day 2, and all that could be spared in Canada by day 4, it was the US that stepped up, and covered all of our shortfalls, considering how much the had in stock piles...

What is weird is the US did so without any major discussions with NATO...what is weirder yet is NATO is not talking about the change and following suit...

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8 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

What is weird is the US did so without any major discussions with NATO...what is weirder yet is NATO is not talking about the change and following suit...

it is only the US Army which is proclaiming 6.8x51mm to be the new calibre

and not for general issue, most of the US Army will still be issued the M4 for decades to come

none of the other Armed Services are following suit so far

the Marine Corps for example is committed to the HK416 in 5.56x45mm as their service rifle

it would take many years of the US Army proving the 6.8x51mm NGSW before it is adopted widely

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33 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it is only the US Army which is proclaiming 6.8x51mm to be the new calibre

and not for general issue, most of the US Army will still be issued the M4 for decades to come

none of the other Armed Services are following suit so far

the Marine Corps for example is committed to the HK416 in 5.56x45mm as their service rifle

it would take many years of the US Army proving the 6.8x51mm NGSW before it is adopted widely

The US army is committed to the new weapons, and like any major new equipment role out it will be done in phases much like when we adapted the 5.56... a slow role out with a slow training cycle...eventual the entire army will have this , i can't see how it could not, the logistics would be very difficult.... this program has been on going since the M-16 was rolled out in Vietnam, with the most common issue with 5.56 was penetration and knock down power and range ...

I witnessed this many times in Afghanistan, 5.56 just lacked the knock down power... yes you can carry more rounds but it takes 3 or more to take a bad guy down and keep him down, some times requiring more than two or three double taps unless you hit bone then the exit wound would be cause severe trauma ,or hit a vital organ.   now hit him 7.62...one round was often enough even with a plate you'd need to be super man to get right back up.

This program is going to take years to role out, build up 6.8 stocks, and deplete the massive 5.56...stocks...

Edited by Army Guy
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