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1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

it all comes down to two engagements where the Canadians were in the right place at the right time

That’s not what Furlong said. He said Canada worked hard to build an elite world-beating sniper program:

 

“I’ve been saying this forever,” he tells Maclean’s by telephone. “Canadian snipers are the best in the world. The sniper training program has been around for a long time. It’s the foundation, and it’s been retooled from lessons learned in Afghanistan. We’ve built it to be the best.”

This latest record, Furlong adds, has taken sniping “to a different level.” Canadian snipers are considered some of the best in the world in part because they are not simply taught to hit their targets. Like much of the Canadian military, many are trained with skills above their existing rank, in the sniper’s case as Unit Master Snipers, meaning they have the skills to design and run complex operations if the need ever arises. That in itself may not make them better snipers but the gestalt of sniper-training and command-thinking combined could explain their skill.

https://macleans.ca/news/canada/a-different-level-of-military-sniper/

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8 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s not what Furlong said. He said Canada worked hard to build an elite world-beating sniper program:

 

“I’ve been saying this forever,” he tells Maclean’s by telephone. “Canadian snipers are the best in the world. The sniper training program has been around for a long time. It’s the foundation, and it’s been retooled from lessons learned in Afghanistan. We’ve built it to be the best.”

This latest record, Furlong adds, has taken sniping “to a different level.” Canadian snipers are considered some of the best in the world in part because they are not simply taught to hit their targets. Like much of the Canadian military, many are trained with skills above their existing rank, in the sniper’s case as Unit Master Snipers, meaning they have the skills to design and run complex operations if the need ever arises. That in itself may not make them better snipers but the gestalt of sniper-training and command-thinking combined could explain their skill.

https://macleans.ca/news/canada/a-different-level-of-military-sniper/

 Canada accused him of being a " war criminal "

 

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14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

 Canada accused him of being a " war criminal "

 

Well IIRC it was actually his fellow soldiers who did, claiming he mutilated the corpses of the enemy combatants he killed, cutting off their fingers and taking them as trophies.  CAF rightfully investigated the complaint. Who knows whether it’s true or not but AFAIK ultimately no evidence could be found one way or the other. 

Edited by BeaverFever
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4 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

What combat proven rifle is proven better than the Tac 50?

The Tac -50 might be lucky to get a 3 rd place finish, in large caliber rifles...number one is Barrett M82, rifles in .408 Cheyenne Tactical can out perform the .50 cal any day...the Tac 50 is popular amoung NATO country, but barret m-82 is perhaps the most numnerous and used all across the US forces including their SOF...

In terms of all around performance many of the smaller calibers are the best like .300, 338, 308, with some giving the same or better performance over all, ie Small MOA groupings, the weight, ease of shooting , the size of the silencer ( the M-82 has to be atleast 3 to 4  feet long...) Snipers with numerous kills most likely do it on a smaller caliber... 

barrett-m82-sniper-rifle-wallpaper-12.jpg

th?id=OIP.nDI0hfwRX1_EBRjCtg87OgHaE8&pid=Api&P=0&h=180

th?id=OIP.GoNYr7iWTMFaJ4HJr7oWTgHaE7&pid=Api&P=0&h=180

 

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5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s not what Furlong said. He said Canada worked hard to build an elite world-beating sniper program:

 

“I’ve been saying this forever,” he tells Maclean’s by telephone. “Canadian snipers are the best in the world. The sniper training program has been around for a long time. It’s the foundation, and it’s been retooled from lessons learned in Afghanistan. We’ve built it to be the best.”

This latest record, Furlong adds, has taken sniping “to a different level.” Canadian snipers are considered some of the best in the world in part because they are not simply taught to hit their targets. Like much of the Canadian military, many are trained with skills above their existing rank, in the sniper’s case as Unit Master Snipers, meaning they have the skills to design and run complex operations if the need ever arises. That in itself may not make them better snipers but the gestalt of sniper-training and command-thinking combined could explain their skill.

https://macleans.ca/news/canada/a-different-level-of-military-sniper/

Our sniper program has many different flavors to it, it was originally taken from the US marines course, and modified into what we have today...I just want to say something it is one thing to have the longest shot... it is another to kill more than 50 targets in a career, and although Americans might not have the longest kill their snipers do have some impressive numbers of kills... 

but one Canadian sniper who operated on a god like level, It is one thing to make a shot at todays distances, but to constantly make those shots in combat , is not just tech, but skill and super field craft skills...

Quote

 

Francis Pegahmagabow (9 March 1891-5 August 1952) was the most decorated Canadian First Nation soldier in the First World War. He was awarded the Military Medal (MM) plus two bars for bravery in Belgium and France. Pegahmagabow was one of 39 members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) to receive two bars to the MM.

He was the most effective sniper of World War I on either side. He was an expert marksman and scout, credited with killing 378 Germans and capturing 300 more.

 

378 KILLS: CANADA PRODUCES TOP SNIPER IN WW1 | The Royal Montreal Regiment

List of snipers - Wikipedia

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10 hours ago, Army Guy said:

The Tac -50 might be lucky to get a 3 rd place finish, in large caliber rifles...number one is Barrett M82, rifles in .408 Cheyenne Tactical can out perform the .50 cal any day...the Tac 50 is popular amoung NATO country, but barret m-82 is perhaps the most numnerous and used all across the US forces including their SOF...

I’m surprised that you would say the Barrett as it is older and being semi-auto it is reportedly less accurate than the Tac 50. in fact I believe McMillan developed the Tac 50 specifically to address the Barrett’s shortcomings. That said  I  am sure there are situations where the Barrett’s rate of fire is more important than the Tac’s extreme range accuracy, Navy SEALs use both weapons for example. As for the smaller calibers it makes sense that they would be more accurate at closer ranges but again AFAIK they lack the range of a .50 cal as well as the anti-material capability

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2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I’m surprised that you would say the Barrett as it is older and being semi-auto it is reportedly less accurate than the Tac 50. in fact I believe McMillan developed the Tac 50 specifically to address the Barrett’s shortcomings. That said  I  am sure there are situations where the Barrett’s rate of fire is more important than the Tac’s extreme range accuracy, Navy SEALs use both weapons for example. As for the smaller calibers it makes sense that they would be more accurate at closer ranges but again AFAIK they lack the range of a .50 cal as well as the anti-material capability

Well most of the web sites I've been to say the same thing, in a lot of them the TAC -50 is not even mentioned, but rather filled in with smaller caliber rifles... and while the .50 cal performs great at max ranges it was originally designed as a anti material gun, not a sniper...it is just recently within the last 15 years or so it was developed as a sniper which now includes the 20 mm rifle being used in Ukraine... and the question why would you expose yourself and your position just to shoot a piece of material, unless that is the mission...lets remember the specs of the .50 it is heavy and is very loud, plus large flash even with a silencer...and depending on the target you might be able to accomplish the same thing with an smaller caliber armor piercing round...

Most of a snipers mission set is Recce and observation, were no shots are fired...while a .50 is fun to fire at the range, it does come with some massive disadvantages...weight, size, extremely loud, large flash, Ammo is also heavy and you can carry a limited amount...this of course is on top of all your other gear, they have to carry...ruck sacks are normally in around 60 to 80 lbs for a normal grunt...snipers are well past that...thats a lot of weight, to carry day after day...

Some of the smaller calibers can still reach out and touch someone at past 1700 - 2100 meters... with much better accuracy than the any of the .50 cals... and with new and improved computers, and optics, why would you want to hump around a massive rifle, plus your secondary which was normally a carbine like a C-8 .... that really advertises who you are and what your job is on the battle field...if i was a sniper one of the first targets would be an enemy sniper...

Is the TAC -50 a good rifle , yes it is, but not the best in class, or even best sniper rifle period...most snipers if given the choice are going to grab a smaller caliber if given the chance... 

 

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21 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

What combat proven rifle is proven better than the Tac 50?

I'd say TAC-50 is the gold standard

bolt action, proven precision accurate at over 3500m

the latest Canadian version is C15A2

monolithic integrated receiver with both Picatinny rail & M-Lok attachments on the sides

 articulated folding stock, suppressor

Joint Task Force 2 spares no expense, if there was a better .50 BMG sniper rifle, they'd be using it

carry-a-c15A2.jpg

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5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

 As for the smaller calibers it makes sense that they would be more accurate at closer ranges but again AFAIK they lack the range of a .50 cal as well as the anti-material capability

Canadian doctrine is form Sniper Detachments of four

two Sniper Teams operating together

one Team to do the stalk ans take the shot

the other Team providing security, Det Commander manning the radio, etcetera

so you can deploy both the C15 Tac-50 & the C14 Timberwolf in the Detachment

the Teams can alternate depending on the range to the target

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15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Most of a snipers mission set is Recce and observation, were no shots are fired...

also important to note that Snipers in the Recce Platoon are Recce Patrolman first

they operate as members of the Platoon, carrying out any & all tasks therein

sometimes they deploy as a Sniper Det, sometimes they deploy as a Patrol Det, depending on the situation

JTF2 employs dedicated Sniper Troops, which can even be deployed as a Sniper Squadron

but they are all Special Operations Assaulter qualified before they take the Sniper Course

so JTF2 Snipers are fully capable of closing with the objective to breach if needed

 

Edited by Dougie93
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3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I'd say TAC-50 is the gold standard

bolt action, proven precision accurate at over 3500m

the latest Canadian version is C15A2

monolithic integrated receiver with both Picatinny rail & M-Lok attachments on the sides

 articulated folding stock, suppressor

Joint Task Force 2 spares no expense, if there was a better .50 BMG sniper rifle, they'd be using it

carry-a-c15A2.jpg

The last Sniper Concentration i visited, was in 2018 in Gagetown. Which included teams from across NATO and police tactical units including ones based in Canada and the US, and the only ones using tac-50 were Canada and the some of the British, the British SAS were using a accuracy international AW50F, and US delta was using a Remington the other US teams for the most part were using the Barrett... Those are the big boys, and their budget is more in likely to far exceed JTF, so I'm not sure why JTF has stuck with the Tac- 50 while other SOF units have chosen something else...

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13 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Canadian doctrine is form Sniper Detachments of four

two Sniper Teams operating together

one Team to do the stalk ans take the shot

the other Team providing security, Det Commander manning the radio, etcetera

so you can deploy both the C15 Tac-50 & the C14 Timberwolf in the Detachment

the Teams can alternate depending on the range to the target

Yeah that’s my understanding as well, I also listen to to the Canadian army podcast. 

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16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Well most of the web sites I've been to say the same thing, in a lot of them the TAC -50 is not even mentioned

Ive seen a lot of website proclaiming the Tac .50 to be the best, I guess it comes down to personal preference and which weapon is best suited to your own tactics  

 

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/05/tac-50-this-might-just-be-the-best-sniper-rifle-ever/

 

https://gundigest.com/article/mcmillan-tac-50-a-true-amr-anti-personnel-sniper-rifle/amp

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Federal government looking to cut $1 billion from National Defence budget
 

 

Just weeks ago, government endorsed NATO pledge to hit 2 per cent spending benchmark

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Sep 29, 2023 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 3 hours ago
A row of military members in camoflauge outfits.
The deputy minister of defence said that while the cuts will be designed to have minimal effects, he acknowledged that 'there will be impact.' (Sean Kilpatrick/The Canadian Press)

The Liberal government is looking to cut almost $1 billion from the annual budget of the Department of National Defence (DND) — a demand the country's top military commander says is prompting some "difficult" conversations within the military.

Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Wayne Eyre and Deputy Minister of Defence Bill Matthews testified before the House of Commons defence committee late Thursday, where they acknowledged in more detail the ramifications of the federal government's spending reduction plan.

Earlier this month, Eyre and Matthews released a joint internal statement warning that the department would be expected to contribute to the federal government's overall plan to reduce spending.

Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Wayne Eyre arrives to appear before the House of Commons standing committee on National Defence in Ottawa on Tuesday, Oct. 18, 2022.
Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Wayne Eyre told MPs there's 'no way' to take $1 billion out of the defence budget without 'an impact.' (Sean Kilpatrick/The Canadian Press)

"There's no way that you can take almost a billion dollars out of the defence budget and not have an impact," Eyre told the four-party committee. "This is something that we're wrestling with now."

DND's main estimates for 2023-24 say the department's budget for this year is expected to be $26.5 billion

On Thursday, Eyre described how earlier in the day he'd had a "very difficult session" with the commanders of the various services. He said that meeting was intended "to explain this to our people" at a time when the international situation is becoming increasingly precarious — partly due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Word of the planned cuts, which have not been specified, comes just weeks after the Liberal government agreed with other NATO allies on a pledge to make the alliance's defence spending benchmark of two per cent of gross domestic product an "enduring commitment."

Living up to that pledge would require a substantial increase in the defence appropriation.

Cuts could undermine Canada's NATO commitment

According to NATO's latest annual report, Canada spent an estimated 1.3 per cent of its GDP on the military last year — well below the target. Coming out of the alliance's summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, the Liberal government faced a storm of bad press and increased pressure from allies to step up its financial commitment.

How the planned cuts will affect Canada's commitment to NATO is unclear. Germany also recently walked back its pledge to meet the two per cent target.

Matthews told the defence committee Thursday that the process of identifying proposed cuts is underway and will lead to a spending reduction of "nearly, I think ... $900 million and change, [which will] ramp up over four years."

While he insisted the cuts will be prioritized so that "they have the least amount of impact possible," he acknowledged that "there will be impact."

Matthews said the spending reductions will be aimed at "minimizing impact on military readiness."

Conservative defence critic James Bezan demanded assurances on that point.

"What's going to give here on a billion dollars this year?" he asked. "And how are we going to deal with the threat environment that we're in if we're going to continue to cut rather than invest in our Canadian Armed Forces?"

Minister Emergency Preparedness Bill Blair holds a press conference in Ottawa on Tuesday, July 11, 2023. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Sean Kilpatrick
Defence Minister Bill Blair has suggested the cuts could come out of equipment spending. (Sean Kilpatrick/The Canadian Press)

Defence Minister Bill Blair tacitly acknowledged the cuts during an appearance in front of the same committee, before Eyre and Matthews testified.

"The fiscal environment in Canada right now requires that when we are spending Canadian taxpayers dollars, that we do it carefully and thoughtfully. I've always looked upon the expenditure of tax dollars as an investment in creating public value for Canadians," Blair told MPs.

Treasury Board President Anita Anand, the former defence minister, told other federal cabinet ministers in August they will be required to cut $15.4 billion in government spending and that they had until Oct. 2 to present their ideas.

At the time, Anand said the Liberal government wanted to ensure money was spent wisely while delivering on key government promises such as dental and child care.

Blair suggested to the defence committee that some of the savings could be attained by putting off planned equipment spending.

"We do know that we have to look very carefully at the expenditures," he said.

"It may actually require some of the investments that we know we have to make, [that] we may have to make over a longer period of time in response to the current fiscal situation."

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/department-national-defence-budget-billion-1.6981974

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5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Ive seen a lot of website proclaiming the Tac .50 to be the best, I guess it comes down to personal preference and which weapon is best suited to your own tactics  

 

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/05/tac-50-this-might-just-be-the-best-sniper-rifle-ever/

 

https://gundigest.com/article/mcmillan-tac-50-a-true-amr-anti-personnel-sniper-rifle/amp

there's no comparison in terms of accuracy, Tac-50 is way more accurate

Tac-50 is also much more compact with folding or detachable stock, also four pounds lighter

Tac-50 can also fit a suppressor, which M82 cannot

M82 is not really designed for sniping, it's more of an Anti Material Rifle

if you are conducting the stalking phase prior to engaging, Tac-50 is the only way to go

Edited by Dougie93
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1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

there's no comparison in terms of accuracy, Tac-50 is way more accurate

Tac-50 is also much more compact with folding or detachable stock, also four pounds lighter

Tac-50 can also fit a suppressor, which M82 cannot

M82 is not really designed for sniping, it's more of an Anti Material Rifle

if you are conducting the stalking phase prior to engaging, Tac-50 is the only way to go

If accuracy was the main objective then stick with smaller calibers, like 338 which is still giving you range from 1700 to 2100 meters...and with improved optics/ rounds/ ballistic computers improving regularly those ranges will increase as well...people are regularly hitting paper targets in excess of 4.4 miles. i also get it hitting a human target in combat is a totally different game, but ranges will be increasing in the future... 

New world record for longest ever rifle shot has been recorded (ladbible.com)

and incase your thinking this is just possible with large caliber... see the ranges they are getting out of .338 4000 plus yards...also with a prism type optic

The Longest Competition Rifle Shot Ever | Outdoor Life

As for suppressors does it really matter at extreme ranges, sound is slower than the bullet, and if the bullet is taking 10 seconds to reach target sound is going to be double that... by the time you hear the shot, the man next to you is already dead by 10 seconds.....

 

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6 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Federal government looking to cut $1 billion from National Defence budget
 

 

Just weeks ago, government endorsed NATO pledge to hit 2 per cent spending benchmark

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Sep 29, 2023 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 3 hours ago
A row of military members in camoflauge outfits.

The deputy minister of defence said that while the cuts will be designed to have minimal effects, he acknowledged that 'there will be impact.' (Sean Kilpatrick/The Canadian Press)

The Liberal government is looking to cut almost $1 billion from the annual budget of the Department of National Defence (DND) — a demand the country's top military commander says is prompting some "difficult" conversations within the military.

Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Wayne Eyre and Deputy Minister of Defence Bill Matthews testified before the House of Commons defence committee late Thursday, where they acknowledged in more detail the ramifications of the federal government's spending reduction plan.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/department-national-defence-budget-billion-1.6981974

Well we really were not holding our breaths expecting the liberals to maintain there current commitments...so no real surprise here...I will give the liberals a shout out for the purchases that are on the board right....now we will see if they stay there...

On the conservative front, i am wondering how the military is going to mange once PP is at the helm, and his cuts go into effect will he keep his promise to bring the military to the 2 % GDP promise we made... or will it be the typical we will "once we have balanced the budget" 

I think what is needed is for someone like 60 minutes to do a detailed exposé on the current status of our military....to show Canadians what they are getting for 26 bil a year investment. to shock them into action...

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2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

If accuracy was the main objective then stick with smaller calibers, like 338 which is still giving you range from 1700 to 2100 meters...and with improved optics/ rounds/ ballistic computers improving regularly those ranges will increase as well...people are regularly hitting paper targets in excess of 4.4 miles. i also get it hitting a human target in combat is a totally different game, but ranges will be increasing in the future... 

New world record for longest ever rifle shot has been recorded (ladbible.com)

and incase your thinking this is just possible with large caliber... see the ranges they are getting out of .338 4000 plus yards...also with a prism type optic

The Longest Competition Rifle Shot Ever | Outdoor Life

As for suppressors does it really matter at extreme ranges, sound is slower than the bullet, and if the bullet is taking 10 seconds to reach target sound is going to be double that... by the time you hear the shot, the man next to you is already dead by 10 seconds.....

I was only comparing the .50 BMG

Barrett M82 vs Accuracy International AS50 vs McMillan TAC-50

the tactical scenario being : walk to the objective RV, then conduct a stalk to the firing position

in which case, it's TAC-50 hands down for me, just on portability, to include dragging it on the stalk

the M82 is not just heavier, it's awkward

it's going to be sticking up way above your head on the infil

then it's going to be harder to drag

then when you are getting into position, it's a big pain in the ass to move around with

the folding stock on the TAC-50 alone makes all the difference

plus again, there is no suppressor for the M82, so the first shot gives your position away

fully suppressed TAC-50 ftw, the report is no louder than a .308

IMO, DEVGRU & JTF2 have the right idea

TAC-50 is handier, stealthier & more versatile, while being the most accurate .50 BMG by far

and if you are in a static position, there's no downside, TAC-50 can do anything M82 can do

Edited by Dougie93
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19 hours ago, Army Guy said:

As for suppressors does it really matter at extreme ranges, sound is slower than the bullet, and if the bullet is taking 10 seconds to reach target sound is going to be double that... by the time you hear the shot, the man next to you is already dead by 10 seconds.....

but you can't know who is in your immediate vicinity

it's not all about the point of impact

as the enemy will deploy counter sniper forces against you

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Jesse Kline: Trudeau cuts defence spending to fund socialist pet projects

Having a military capable of defending your borders is not something you want to be caught without when you need it most

Published Oct 02, 2023  •  Last updated 4 hours ago  •  4 minute read
Justin TrudeauPrime Minister Justin Trudeau takes a selfie with a Canadian service member serving in Mali in 2018. Photo by Adrian Wyld/The Canadian Press

When politicians get in a room together, are they overwhelmed by the wafting scent of bulls–t, or do they simply become immune to it after awhile?

Speaking in front of a parliamentary committee on Thursday, Defence Minister Bill Blair said that, “The fiscal environment in Canada right now requires that when we are spending Canadian taxpayers dollars … we do it carefully and thoughtfully.”

And he’s absolutely right. But it seems a little rich from a government that can’t seem to go a week without announcing millions in funding for high-speed internet in some remote part of the country or to virtue-signal for the woke cause du jour, and wastes tens of billions on its fruitless quest to forcibly decarbonize the economy.

Having a military that’s capable of defending your country’s sovereignty may not seem to be “creating public value for Canadians,” as Blair suggested government expenditures should be, and may not be a vote-getter like dental or child care, two areas Treasury Board President Anita Anand insinuated the government needs to find savings in order to fund.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/trudeau-cuts-defence-spending-to-fund-socialist-pet-projects

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Here is the latest article on military spending, done by John Ivison, who I get the impression from his past articles he is not a huge fan of our military...

I think this article misses a lot of facts in the ever ending increases in the ship building program... Yes i would agree that the the military is constantly changing requirements, as we have seen technology is constantly changing and so must your weapons' design..5 Mins after someone invents a new system, someone invents a way to counter it.. Changing a system that is Canadian design is not a faux pas, they are changing it for the state of art US design...nobody makes naval weapons' better than the US..

What is missing is Canada need to restart an already dead industry, Canada's navy ship building abilities.. these same ships are being built with the almost same weapons' systems as we have asked for a lot cheaper, in Australia...we could have used those savings to fund our need for subs, or perhaps Destroyers capable of assisting in our missle defense capabilities.

The whole idea of it needs to be built in Canada to support Canadian workers... is garbage, the military is not a make work project for the politicians, it is in the business of enacting our foreign policy through the use or show of force...and it needs the best equipment on the market to bring home those "Canadians" that decided to serve our nation...

Our own defense contracts in this case Irving are not interested in our men and women, they are concerned with taking their share out of the trough 5.7 bil per ship, is what they are charging today, that is expected only to go way up...until the navy is forced to reduce the amount of ships purchased, . They get more dollars for less work...if we started to give this work off shore maybe prices would come down...

The military get a once in a life time opportunity to buy equipment, so to hedge their bets they try and cram as much capability as they can into each piece...as they next one is 40 or more years away...perhaps if we continued to make good sound buys in a regular time frame our forces would not be in the state they are in now...which is critical...

What i find interesting is everyone seems to an expert when it comes down to our military , it's wants and needs, how it should accomplish them, and that the real experts that have purposed the purchase in the first place know absolutely nothing...Maybe there would not be so many critics if it was their a$$ on the line , it was their lives that would be risked every day...

John Ivison: The uncontrolled military program plundering the public purse, desperate for adult attention (msn.com)

Edited by Army Guy
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