Canadian Defence News

[Legato]

12 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

And yet other countries currently manage mixed fighter fleets even with F35s and Canada has always had mixed fighter fleets historically prior to the cf-18 era. 
 

Gripen would not “severely complicate” anything  4th generation aircraft including Gripens are abundant in NATO and the US military and will still be for a while. 
 

Already being worked on

 

“Frequently” is an exaggeration as the Global has good endurance. It can also use shorter runways than e7 so can operate from more northern airfields closer to the arctic 

Another exaggeration Globaleye can communicate and datalink with any aircraft in real time including F35. . Link 16 is the NATO standard. Granted it’s not as optimized as the new native datalink that f35 has and presumably US E7 will have but it’s not a showstopper if US refuses to allow Canadian Globaleyes to have the same link.  USA still uses 4th generation fighters and F16s in NORAD FFS

 

The military isn’t responsible for political sovereignty and keeping Canada from becoming a puppet state so naturally it’s not a concern for them. It is however the responsibility of the elected government, who also ultimately decides what costs are worthwhile or not. 

Despite an original plan to acquire 88 F-35s and putting down payments on an initial batch, political friction and trade tensions forced Ottawa to review this strategy. The government has considered capping the F-35 order and purchasing Saab Gripen fighters instead. The RCAF is strongly opposed to this, for several reasons: 

Training & Personnel: A divided training regime for pilots and ground crews would further strain a Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) already navigating a severe personnel shortage. 

Supply Chains: The F-35 and the Gripen share very few interchangeable parts. This means maintaining two distinct supply lines for spare parts, mechanical equipment, and maintenance software. 

Interoperability: The F-35 is heavily optimized to share data seamlessly with American and NORAD fifth- and sixth-generation systems. Integrating a European-designed 4.5-generation fighter like the Gripen would severely complicate tactical communications and interoperability with allies. 

 

The GlobalEye vs. Boeing E-7

In a pivot away from total U.S. reliance, Canada chose to enter negotiations to procure the Saab GlobalEye (built using Bombardier Global 6500 jets) for airborne surveillance rather than the American Boeing E-7 Wedgetail. While the GlobalEye offers excellent technology, it presents unique logistical bottlenecks for the Canadian Armed Forces: [1, 2, 3, 4]

• No Air-to-Air Refueling: The current configuration of the GlobalEye cannot be refueled in mid-air, significantly limiting its time on station. During long missions in the Arctic, the aircraft would have to return to base frequently, leaving Canadian airspace temporarily without airborne warning and control coverage. 
• System Disconnects: Experts point out that the GlobalEye is not fully optimized to communicate and coordinate in real time with the U.S. and Canadian future F-35 interceptors, which are essential for northern NORAD operations
• The push to buy these two different types of aircraft boils down to a classic tug-of-war between military effectiveness and domestic industrial strategy. While a mixed-fleet and buying Swedish platforms creates thousands of jobs in Canada and diversifies away from Washington's orbit, top Canadian military officials have repeatedly warned that splitting up fleets heavily degrades operational efficiency and increases costs in the long run. 

The Carney debacles continue without a minutes let up.

 

•  

[BeaverFever]

6 minutes ago, Legato said:

Despite an original plan to acquire 88 F-35s and putting down payments on an initial batch, political friction and trade tensions forced Ottawa to review this strategy. The government has considered capping the F-35 order and purchasing Saab Gripen fighters instead. The RCAF is strongly opposed to this, for several reasons: 

Training & Personnel: A divided training regime for pilots and ground crews would further strain a Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) already navigating a severe personnel shortage. 

Supply Chains: The F-35 and the Gripen share very few interchangeable parts. This means maintaining two distinct supply lines for spare parts, mechanical equipment, and maintenance software. 

Interoperability: The F-35 is heavily optimized to share data seamlessly with American and NORAD fifth- and sixth-generation systems. Integrating a European-designed 4.5-generation fighter like the Gripen would severely complicate tactical communications and interoperability with allies. 

 

The GlobalEye vs. Boeing E-7

In a pivot away from total U.S. reliance, Canada chose to enter negotiations to procure the Saab GlobalEye (built using Bombardier Global 6500 jets) for airborne surveillance rather than the American Boeing E-7 Wedgetail. While the GlobalEye offers excellent technology, it presents unique logistical bottlenecks for the Canadian Armed Forces: [1, 2, 3, 4]

• No Air-to-Air Refueling: The current configuration of the GlobalEye cannot be refueled in mid-air, significantly limiting its time on station. During long missions in the Arctic, the aircraft would have to return to base frequently, leaving Canadian airspace temporarily without airborne warning and control coverage. 
• System Disconnects: Experts point out that the GlobalEye is not fully optimized to communicate and coordinate in real time with the U.S. and Canadian future F-35 interceptors, which are essential for northern NORAD operations
• The push to buy these two different types of aircraft boils down to a classic tug-of-war between military effectiveness and domestic industrial strategy. While a mixed-fleet and buying Swedish platforms creates thousands of jobs in Canada and diversifies away from Washington's orbit, top Canadian military officials have repeatedly warned that splitting up fleets heavily degrades operational efficiency and increases costs in the long run. 

The Carney debacles continue without a minutes let up.

 

•  

Simply repeating yourself doesn’t nullify the rebuttal you have already received on these arguments. 

[Legato]

9 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Simply repeating yourself doesn’t nullify the rebuttal you have already received on these arguments. 

Rebuttal? Let me know when you have one, not some furiously spinning nonsense.

BTW the US does not have any Gripens. We are working on it. Lol.

[BeaverFever]

46 minutes ago, Legato said:

Rebuttal? Let me know when you have one, not some furiously spinning nonsense.

BTW the US does not have any Gripens. We are working on it. Lol.

None of what I said was “furiously spinning nonsense”   Just because the FACTS I presented don’t support the narrative you are pushing doesn’t mean you can pretend it’s “nonsense”. That’s the problem with debating you internet kooks you can’t debate honestly.   
 

NATO has Gripens. I never said US does. US has hundreds of 4th gen fighters 

[Legato]

42 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

None of what I said was “furiously spinning nonsense”   Just because the FACTS I presented don’t support the narrative you are pushing doesn’t mean you can pretend it’s “nonsense”. That’s the problem with debating you internet kooks you can’t debate honestly.   
 

NATO has Gripens. I never said US does. US has hundreds of 4th gen fighters 

Quote

4th generation aircraft including Gripens are abundant in NATO and the US military and will still be for a while. 

The rest as I said, pure spin and nonsense. Just a deliberate whitewash of the Carney's bumbling inadequacy.

Honest debate?? Lol

He's a bankerbrat and that's alright

He spins all day and he spins all night.

 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Students are not counted in the labour force though, that’s what matters.

They are. 

Students are only counted in the Canadian labour force if they are currently employed or actively seeking paid work. If a student is solely focused on their studies and not looking for a job, they are classified by Statistics Canada as "not in the labour force". [1, 2, 3]

A more detailed breakdown of how students fit into the labour market includes:

1. Employed Students

Students who work part-time or full-time (e.g., during summer breaks) are counted as part of the employed labour force. [1, 2]

2. Unemployed Students (Looking for Work)

If a student does not have a job but is actively searching for one and available to work, they are counted as unemployed. Together with the employed, these individuals make up the total labour force. [1, 2]

3. Not in the Labour Force

Full-time students who are not working and not looking for a job are excluded from the labour force entirely. For example, a full-time university student taking classes and not actively seeking employment is not counted when calculating Canada's official labour force

 

So the vast vast majority of foreign students work. At least part time. 

 

"Yes, a significant majority of foreign students work during their studies. Across major study destinations like Canada, a majority of international students take on part-time jobs to offset high tuition fees and cover living costs. [1, 2, 3]"

 

So you're wrong again. 

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Growing the economy by the growing the population is of course the whole point of immigration it is not an evil plot to hide anything.

As we have seen by the fact that I needed to correct you on virtually every element including your last state ment, you are not aware or knowledgeable about what immigration is all about 

Immigration has several purposes. Historically it is absolutely not been an economy Builder, if anything it held the economy back a fair bit.

That changed largely in 2006 when Canada moved to a much more filtered points-based system. But even so generally speaking it takes at least a generation after immigration before the economy notices a benefit from integration that is substantial and real

However, and be used to mask or create the illusion of a good economy when in reality the economy is poor. Which is absolutely what trust and Trudeau was doing and it is now being acknowledged by experts everywhere. It was noted at the time by many but the liberals are now using that fact as an excuse as to why it looks like they're doing worse than Justin did. 

Your premise is entirely wrong. The excessive immigration we saw under the Trudeau liberals was absolutely an effort to artificially conceal the weaknesses and failures of the Canadian economy during his time. And that is one of the reasons that the economy is appearing to completely crash under Carney

It's not the carney completely crashed the economy, it's that it was horrible all along and now we can finally see it for what it is. Carney's problem is he hasn't improved it despite promising the fastest growth in the G7

Highly targeted immigration can benefit the economy even in the short term if it's done right, but we have fairly limited amounts of that. Most of our immigration does not benefit our economy at all for at least one generation, and it sucks up tax dollars at an alarming rate by reducing GDP for capita

 

[Army Guy]

21 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

And yet other countries currently manage mixed fighter fleets even with F35s and Canada has always had mixed fighter fleets historically prior to the cf-18 era. 
 

Gripen would not “severely complicate” anything  4th generation aircraft including Gripens are abundant in NATO and the US military and will still be for a while. 
 

Already being worked on

 

“Frequently” is an exaggeration as the Global has good endurance. It can also use shorter runways than e7 so can operate from more northern airfields closer to the arctic 

Another exaggeration Globaleye can communicate and datalink with any aircraft in real time including F35. . Link 16 is the NATO standard. Granted it’s not as optimized as the new native datalink that f35 has and presumably US E7 will have but it’s not a showstopper if US refuses to allow Canadian Globaleyes to have the same link.  USA still uses 4th generation fighters and F16s in NORAD FFS

 

The military isn’t responsible for political sovereignty and keeping Canada from becoming a puppet state so naturally it’s not a concern for them. It is however the responsibility of the elected government, who also ultimately decides what costs are worthwhile or not. 

You mean other countries that have allotted serious defense budgets to operate and upgrade them...Canada has never really took defense serious for decades...in fact i remembered the liberals voters crying that 19 bil on 88 F-35 was crazy talk...That past liberal government actually campaigned on canceling the whole project...and now today there is talk of bring in 2 different sets of combat aircraft...perhaps someone can explain the liberal logic in all of this...The next question of all the modern aircraft out there why the gripen ...i could list a 1/2 dozen better suited gen 4.5 aircraft that could out perform the gripen on a bad day...

Gripen E/F are not abundant in NATO, in fact Sweden has ordered 60 with possibly another 10... all the other Gripen operators have  c/d models which are gen 4 at best....and even then there is not an abundant of them....once again it raise the question of why the gripen E/F ..and why not a much better aircraft that is "ABUNDANT" like the Euro fighter.... 

But it does not have air to air refueling....nor is its radar 360 degrees coverage, but rather only 300 degrees....while the E-7 has air to air refueling , much larger radar with longer range, and it covers 306 degree even while turning.....it sounds like a political buy...not one designed for the military...and to get all this in a global eye, it will be back to the drawing board, as this stuff just can't be slapped on and expected to work.....much like the other paper global 6500 aircraft that was purposed for the P-8 competition. Either way our government decision are all over the map....

 

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

remembered the liberals voters crying that 19 bil on 88 F-35 was crazy talk...That past liberal government actually campaigned on canceling the whole project...and now today there is talk of bring in 2 different sets of combat aircraft...perhaps someone can explain the liberal logic in all of this..

Because a lot changes in 10 years. Bombing Germany in 1930was crazy talk. In 1940 it was a must-do. In 1950 it was crazy talk again. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

You mean other countries that have allotted serious defense budgets to operate and upgrade them...Canada has never really took defense serious for decades..

Well that’s changed now. 
 

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

The next question of all the modern aircraft out there why the gripen ...i could list a 1/2 dozen better suited gen 4.5 aircraft that could out perform the gripen on a bad day...

There aren’t half a dozen alternatives realistically there was rafale and typhoon, both very expensive and likely limited economic benefits compared to gripen. IIRC they were disqualified or withdrew because they couldn’t meet NORAD integration requirements and typhoon didn’t like the industrial offsets requirement  There was also the super-hornet was deemed leas advanced than gripen. 
 

 

[Army Guy]

So what has changed in the last 10 years, that would force our nation to start taking our defense and defense commitments seriously...

 

For now, Canada has a long history of being a defense lagard, and some how Carney comes along and poof spending on defense is now cool, cutting other social programs cool, you know what they say, if it is to good to be true it isn't...

actually there is 18 globally, 8 of them are from western nations....all would give gripen a run for price, and performance...

Funny you mention price, if that was truly a concern why even buy a second fighter....why just purchase more F-35's save on logistics tail, price, and compatibility with most of NATO...both European jets are more plentiful than gripen meaning more spares, and more R&D funding, more compatibility...meeting NORAD integration, is a BS answer, any aircraft could easily meet those standards...the real reason was Canada was looking for to much in offsets at the time....we got to greedy...the point was to buy a fighter not enrich liberal voters...

Super hornet was the liberals pick until the mix up with Boeing and Canada's crown prince of planes....what has changed with the hornets...nothing which aircraft is better...is a matter of opinion....both are 4.5 gen with the F-18 coming out ahead in more categories than the gripen, the f-18 has a better price point , Canadian air men already familiar with type, the list goes on and on....the Gripen is a political buy, and no one knows why,  our Air force has already spoken on the topic....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:4.5-generation_jet_fighters