Riley Gaines Assaulted by Trans Activists at San Francisco State University

[Nationalist]

18 minutes ago, Aristides said:

'The definition of gender is clear. Language always changes.

Yes. Male and Female. Clear as a bell.

[Aristides]

31 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Yes. Male and Female. Clear as a bell.

That's sex, not gender.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

That's sex, not gender.

It's both. Sorry man. This is a mile too far for me.

[West]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

What do you think about people who are born with indeterminate gender? Sometimes the genitals don’t develop properly and the doctor cannot tell whether the infant is male or female. Tell us what that person is.  

What do you think about space aliens driving Cadillacs?

[Aristides]

4 hours ago, Rebound said:

Do you have gender with your wife or sex?

I believe it is called intercourse. Gay people have it as well.

[Rebound]

11 hours ago, West said:

What do you think about space aliens driving Cadillacs?

Seriously, there are people born with partially formed, ambiguous genitals and the doctors can’t figure out whether the baby is male or female. It really happens. “Occasionally, a chromosomal abnormality may make determination of genetic sex complex.”

Mayo Clinic:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ambiguous-genitalia/symptoms-causes/syc-20369273

Edited April 11, 2023 by Rebound

[reason10]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:31 AM, Perspektiv said:

The crazy part, is that they are protesting her stating how uncomfortable she was having a woman with a penis undressing in the same locker room as her.

That he was an afterthought with men in swimming, and a record shatterer in less of two years of transition. 

Like, she is seen as the unreasonable one in this situation. 

Anyone saying that cancel culture doesn't exist, should look at the lengths activists have gone through to snuff out her voice.

If she has a penis, she is a HE.

[reason10]

14 hours ago, Aristides said:

That's sex, not gender.

They are the same. You're either male or female, and a doctor makes that determination at birth.

Anyone who thinks he is a she or she is a he is sick.

[West]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

Seriously, there are people born with partially formed, ambiguous genitals and the doctors can’t figure out whether the baby is male or female. It really happens. “Occasionally, a chromosomal abnormality may make determination of genetic sex complex.”

Mayo Clinic:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ambiguous-genitalia/symptoms-causes/syc-20369273

There are people born with no arms either. What point are you trying to make? It's not as clear as you think

[Hodad]

13 hours ago, Nationalist said:

It's both. Sorry man. This is a mile too far for me.

Gender has been understood as a social construct rather than a biological observation since before you were born. Think about cultures with gendered language, in which words are assigned a gender (masculine, feminine or neuter) based on how those words relate to social expectations. As societies drift and shift so do the words and the ways they are employed.

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Gender has been understood as a social construct rather than a biological observation since before you were born. Think about cultures with gendered language, in which words are assigned a gender (masculine, feminine or neuter) based on how those words relate to social expectations. As societies drift and shift so do the words and the ways they are employed.

Yes, gendered words are an old artifact of (I'm guessing) European languages.   Aaaand... yes words change in our culture and others.

But although "man" and "woman" are becoming a social construct now, it's indeed a new a strange thing to a great number of people that such things now have fluid meaning.  So one has to have some patience around adoption of this new way.  To me, this means tolerance of people who post questions, uncertainty, and even some forms of ignorance and even - to a point - resistance to the idea.  There are limits, of course.  Participating in the public sphere demands a certain level of respect, decorum and listening.  Those are the price of admission.  Listen to what the antis have to say.  They are still part of "the" public.

That said, the writing is on the wall for this.  So-called progress only goes one way in our culture.  Inasmuch as this change helps a minor segment of society, by percentage, there is a great weight pushing it.  If you really want to rally against this change, you are probably not great at picking your battles.

If, on the other hand, the adoption of this new moral attribute, ie. tolerance of trans identities, is a symptom to you of a greater problem then I recommend that you elucidate that problem in isolation, ie. spell out what is bothering you about this trend, at the core.  What is it specifically ?  Identity culture trumping all discussion ?  The way that certain issues are discussed in the public sphere ?  My point is you can probably get some intellectual support for your position if you take that angle.

 

 

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Hodad said:

Gender has been understood as a social construct rather than a biological observation since before you were born. Think about cultures with gendered language, in which words are assigned a gender (masculine, feminine or neuter) based on how those words relate to social expectations. As societies drift and shift so do the words and the ways they are employed.

 

 

French and Spanish immediately jump to mind.

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes, gendered words are an old artifact of (I'm guessing) European languages.   Aaaand... yes words change in our culture and others.

But although "man" and "woman" are becoming a social construct now, it's indeed a new a strange thing to a great number of people that such things now have fluid meaning.  So one has to have some patience around adoption of this new way.  To me, this means tolerance of people who post questions, uncertainty, and even some forms of ignorance and even - to a point - resistance to the idea.  There are limits, of course.  Participating in the public sphere demands a certain level of respect, decorum and listening.  Those are the price of admission.  Listen to what the antis have to say.  They are still part of "the" public.

That said, the writing is on the wall for this.  So-called progress only goes one way in our culture.  Inasmuch as this change helps a minor segment of society, by percentage, there is a great weight pushing it.  If you really want to rally against this change, you are probably not great at picking your battles.

If, on the other hand, the adoption of this new moral attribute, ie. tolerance of trans identities, is a symptom to you of a greater problem then I recommend that you elucidate that problem in isolation, ie. spell out what is bothering you about this trend, at the core.  What is it specifically ?  Identity culture trumping all discussion ?  The way that certain issues are discussed in the public sphere ?  My point is you can probably get some intellectual support for your position if you take that angle.

 

 

Thanks for the very thoughtful post. To be clear, I definitely did not intend for my short post to tackle the larger conversation about trans rights, etc., but rather to simply challenge the specific thought that gender has the same meaning as sex and has been immutable and binary up until this point of radical departure.

Gender and biological sex have a long history of being distinct from one another within human conception and communication. Yes, there was a period of time when those words were largely interchangeable in the English speaking world, but that's a pretty narrow aperture. We didn't have a need to distinguish the social from the biological so we were casually lazy. But the need for precision is growing and the words are drifting apart again. The whole thing is a little like watching an astronomical transit. 

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, reason10 said:

If she has a penis, she is a HE.

I feel people are free to identify as they please. I would respectfully call her a woman.

But yeah, hitting a biological woman because you feel you're a woman, is wrong. It also shows why so many women are petrified of coming forward with complaints. These people will devour their own. 

[Michael Hardner]

Calling women 'he' is well within anyone's rights.   So is calling people 'fat', using the n-word, and flipping the bird at anyone.

Enjoy your freedom everyone.

[West]

2 hours ago, Hodad said:

Gender has been understood as a social construct rather than a biological observation since before you were born. Think about cultures with gendered language, in which words are assigned a gender (masculine, feminine or neuter) based on how those words relate to social expectations. As societies drift and shift so do the words and the ways they are employed.

 

 

So if it's a social construct why do they get all angry when you don't call them a woman? 

[Hodad]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Calling women 'he' is well within anyone's rights.   So is calling people 'fat', using the n-word, and flipping the bird at anyone.

Enjoy your freedom everyone.

This is true on multiple levels. When you unpack it, that's what it really comes down to. You can be respectful and considerate about the feelings of other human beings, or you can choose to be a spiteful a-hole. And like those other things, society will respond in kind.

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Hodad said:

This is true on multiple levels. When you unpack it, that's what it really comes down to. You can be respectful and considerate about the feelings of other human beings, or you can choose to be a spiteful a-hole. And like those other things, society will respond in kind.

They are hoping, I think, that people will rally around them and it will prove out that they're in a majority of people who can dismiss these changes.  Hoping or expecting.

They might expect conflict, but the true sign that they're actually in the dismissed minority will be ... general silence and disdain.

[Hodad]

2 minutes ago, West said:

So if it's a social construct why do they get all angry when you don't call them a woman? 

Because that is how they identify--and because of the challenge and struggle of being trans in this society, that hard-won identity is more jealously protected. Just because it's a social construct doesn't mean the word without meaning, particularly on a personal level.

I've known cis men who'd be inclined to punch you in the nose if you insisted on calling them a woman. Why would he be "getting all angry?" Identity matters, and to some more than others.

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, Rebound said:

Seriously, there are people born with partially formed, ambiguous genitals and the doctors can’t figure out whether the baby is male or female. It really happens. “Occasionally, a chromosomal abnormality may make determination of genetic sex complex.”

Mayo Clinic:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ambiguous-genitalia/symptoms-causes/syc-20369273

This is truly grasping at straws.

It is called a disorder for a reason. An anomaly. This doesn't complicated gender just like people born blind doesn't complicate the fact most are born with two functional eyes. 

Anyone approaching me with "its very complicated" have no clue what they are talking about. What kind of an expert points out how complicated their subject matter is, yet providing nothing but ambiguity? 

You're trying to pass an anomaly which isn't normal, as a gender or additional gender, which is or would be. 

Me being born with male genitals but a female reproductive system, doesn't negate the fact that my genetics were attempting to create a gender. It certainly doesn't negate that virtually all born with such anomalies naturally gravitate to a gender.

Birth defects shouldn't cause social stigmas, but to act like this is perfectly normal is teaching kids 7 fingers on on hand is normal. That's false.

They teach 10 fingers and 10 toes as the vast majority of humans will be born with them.

Same with a penis or a vagina. The vast majority of women born will have a vagina, and a penis for the vast majority of men.

Why is it an insult or bigoted to state this? 

Personally, I really don't care. 

I won't fight people like this, no more than I would fight my nephew adamant that the globe is flat. 

"If it was round, we would fall off!"

Again, he's a child, so I explained gravity to him. 

He responded with anger, and his oldest siblings started mocking him. 

I stopped their teasing, and reiterated facts, which he forcefully rejected. "Its ROUND!"

So, I did what it seems most of society are doing when people like this have been given a megaphone.

"Okay, you're right. The world is flat."

SEE! I told you!

"You sure did."

His siblings laughing at him, but I asked them to stop. 

People aren't fighting people like this, as its equally exasperating. 

I will fight with my votes. 

I would say education, but we now have a school system validating this crap.

"A woman is whatever you want it to be"

Why fight people like this. 

You're right. A woman is what a woman is.

"Whats that even mean?!"

To each their own.

It means the earth is flat and women is a wide ranging word that describes nothing and everything at the same time.

*flies off on a spaceship, but flies straight to avoid falling off straight planet*

[reason10]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

I feel people are free to identify as they please. I would respectfully call her a woman.

But yeah, hitting a biological woman because you feel you're a woman, is wrong. It also shows why so many women are petrified of coming forward with complaints. These people will devour their own. 

People identifying as something does not change science and human anatomy. In psychology, it's called being delusional.

And this "identifying" crap led to RAPES in girls' locker rooms in public schools. It led to women's sports being invaded by stronger MEN who could not compete in their own sex, but were able to win easily in women's sports.

It isn't fair to normal people of either sex. It's just a disease.

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, Rebound said:

Do you have gender with your wife or sex?

If you are going to accept one definition of that word you need to also accept the other.

either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

 

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

That said, the writing is on the wall for this.  So-called progress only goes one way in our culture.  Inasmuch as this change helps a minor segment of society, by percentage, there is a great weight pushing it.

It harms a much greater segment and there's a lot of weight pushing back at it.

World Athletics has banned transgender women from competing in elite female competitions if they have gone through male puberty, the sport's governing body said on Thursday.

World Athletics votes to exclude transgender women athletes

Following extensive stakeholder engagement and a systematic review of evidence, England’s National Health Service (NHS) has issued new draft guidance for the treatment of gender dysphoria in minors, which sharply deviates from the “gender-affirming” approach. The previous presumption that gender dysphoric youth <18 need specialty “transgender healthcare” has been supplanted by the developmentally-informed position that most need psychoeducation and psychotherapy.

https://segm.org/England-ends-gender-affirming-care

After months of debate and scrutiny, the bill was met warmly, passing through parliament 86 to 39, and called “a big step forward” by LGBTQ+ advocacy groups.That was until earlier this month, when the U.K. government vetoed the bill.

https://time.com/6250646/united-kingdom-scotland-transgender-bill/

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Hodad said:

Gender has been understood as a social construct rather than a biological observation since before you were born. 

It is both. And always has been.

[I am Groot]

30 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Because that is how they identify--and because of the challenge and struggle of being trans in this society, that hard-won identity is more jealously protected.

Hard-won identity? How hard is it to win an identity when all you have to do is say "I'm a woman now" as you barge into the ladies room?