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DeSantis on Ukraine


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9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Childish? I have a valid point to make and have a right to be heard. Just because I don't say it the way you like

You seem to want to distract from me making the point that the USA and NATO provoked the Ukrainian situation into a crisis. I find that highly suspicious.

Yes, childish. Use your own words, don't mess with other people's.

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34 minutes ago, robosmith said:

The FACT is, Yanukovych was a Putin puppet who unleashed his Berkut secret police to kill peaceful protesters in  Maidan.

The West offering ALTERNATIVES to Putin's boot may seem like a provocation to Putin puppets, but in reality it is a logical choice from them to make.

Those are not necessarily the facts. What I read indicates he was democratically elected, in an election that was observed by outsiders and deemed to be as fair as can be expected for the region. Doesn't mean I approve of his politics, but it is what it is.

Not only that I recall that in the next election which may have been for their congress, his party won by a landslide.

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5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes, by surrender.  This is the glory that President Trump would bring: this is his "peace plan" - appeasement.  

We will have perpetual peace if we forever allow aggressors to roll over borders unopposed.

This current war in the Donbas is not like 1938 - it is like the Balkan Wars of 1912.

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1 hour ago, robosmith said:

The FACT is,

Hey Pablito. For you and laughing-boy:

"Ukraine's 2010 presidential election, the fifth since the country regained its independence when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, was democratic and "organized in a transparent manner," the OSCE said today in an e-mailed statement.

"Yesterday's vote was an impressive display of democratic elections," said João Soares, the president of the OSCE's Parliamentary Assembly and Special Coordinator for OSCE short- term observers. "For everyone in Ukraine, this election was a victory. It is now time for the country's political leaders to listen to the people's verdict and make sure that the transition of power is peaceful and constructive."

And that's what they did, in 2010. Not so in the following years.

Eh, fatboy?   ?

Edited by OftenWrong
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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Those are not necessarily the facts. What I read indicates he was democratically elected, in an election that was observed by outsiders and deemed to be as fair as can be expected for the region. Doesn't mean I approve of his politics, but it is what it is.

Not only that I recall that in the next election which may have been for their congress, his party won by a landslide.

The vote of their Congress was unanimous to oust Yanukovych and he FLED TO MOSCOW.

Edited by robosmith
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8 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Am not apologizing for his behavior. My point is that this conflict could have ended early, or been avoided.

You are apologizing a brutal aggressor or making a meaningless, irrelevant point. Aggression is not acceptable for any reasons. There are no reasons, explanations or justifications for these acts. Either, you are trying to imply that Putin may have had a cause, or reason and that's no less than apologizing Hitler. Or musings like this and that could have made Hitler behave against his nature are irrelevant nonsense, bullsh*t. Putin is a brutal, violent dictator it is very clear, visual and obvious. And the only thing that can stop those is standing up to them and defeating them.

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52 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Hey Pablito. For you and laughing-boy:

"Ukraine's 2010 presidential election, the fifth since the country regained its independence when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, was democratic and "organized in a transparent manner," the OSCE said today in an e-mailed statement.

"Yesterday's vote was an impressive display of democratic elections," said João Soares, the president of the OSCE's Parliamentary Assembly and Special Coordinator for OSCE short- term observers. "For everyone in Ukraine, this election was a victory. It is now time for the country's political leaders to listen to the people's verdict and make sure that the transition of power is peaceful and constructive."

And that's what they did, in 2010. Not so in the following years.

Eh, fatboy?   ?

And AFTER he was elected, HE RENEGED on his promise to sign a trade deal with Western countries and signed a deal with MOSCOW, probably cause he was BRIBED by Putin.

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1 hour ago, August1991 said:

This current war in the Donbas is not like 1938 - it is like the Balkan Wars of 1912.

Aha Mama Russia finally seeping through?. Wrong, obviously. Borders of Ukraine are recognized internationally, including Crimea, not  one slightest question here. Including by Russia herself in multiple international treaties. This is as clear a war as brutal, unprovoked aggression as ever was and will be. Russia makes a heavy imprint on one's mind that is very resistant to healing by independent thought and open mind. Too bad.

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19 hours ago, Mako said:

f a Ukraine outside of NATO will bring peace let’s give it a try. Even talk about NATO membership for Ukraine obviously has helped produce the current disaster.

Wth? Putins, Uns and other crazy dictator scam should dictate free countries what to do or not, in the name of some imaginary parody of "peace"? What kind of nonsense is that? What phrase book is it from (obviously)?

Edited by myata
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Does anyone here think Nato including the US was every a threat to Russia. How can this ever have been imagined that the Natoization of former Soviet satellites was some grand plan to invade Russia, or even weaken Russia? Why was Nato ever even formed in the first place? Yea I'll tell you why, its because the world knew last century and well before that Russia is a tyrant Nation and has been a threat to the west and world peace for centuries, just look at pre WW2 history. Russia has wanted to destroy the United States since the days of the Czar's and the best way for them to do this is control Europe. Russia is great at playing the long game and by no means should their setbacks in Ukraine be looked at as failures.

During WW2 we chose to side with what we perceived as the lesser of two evils and our leaders right down to our educational system has brainwashed Americans into thinking that Germany and it's allies including Ukraine  just decided to surprise Russia in an unprovoked surprise attack. Remember Stalin had 5 million men from the Black Sea to the Baltic Sea at the time of Hitler's "surprise attack". Stalin was hardly jilted or surprised by Hitler, and in reality would've invaded the west at some point. Kinda like he's doing now.

So this notion by Americas right that poor Russia is just trying to protect itself from western aggression by vaporizing Ukraine is poppycock.

 

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3 hours ago, myata said:

. Aggression is not acceptable for any reasons.

Agreed, but the US have made recent land grabs in the name of safety, and planted puppet regimes. Where is the global outrage and condemnation? Where are the sanctions? 

China sees Taiwan as part of its land. The US respects this, with a policy that doesn't take sides. Where are the sanctions for its bullying? 

I mean, the US sent aircraft carriers through the region when Pelosi visited. 

3 hours ago, myata said:

Either, you are trying to imply that Putin may have had a cause

Or that he didn't set the precedent, and that the US are being hypocritical. 

3 hours ago, myata said:

And the only thing that can stop those is standing up to them and defeating them.

How do you expect to defeat Russia? 

The only thing you can do is hurt them, but dying soldiers will matter little to them. 

The US will have spent trillions on this conflict with no end in sight, before they realize that Russian culture, prevents them from losing face. 

Meaning they are do or die. With allies like China and Iran, neither will let their partner sink, proven by increased bilateral partnerships. 

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21 hours ago, Nationalist said:

The reason given was that the eastern sliver of Ukraine is full of ethnic Russians who do not want to be part of Ukraine, and that Ukraine has unleashed a Neo-NAZI battalion on that region which was in the process of murdering anyone who spoke Russian.

Bullshit. Plain Russian lies. Whatever true or imaginary woes, Russia had and has zero right to invade a sovereign nation, member of UN. If everybody is allowed to do what Russia has been doing in Ukraine the world of tomorrow will be the one of an endless nightmare.

21 hours ago, Nationalist said:

The facts seem to support these accusations.

Bullshit. There are all kinds of international bodies, UN, European, European Court of justice, International Criminal Court and Russia has nothing to show exactly because it's bullshit. Plain, obvious propaganda. And logically, can be copypasted everywhere repeating this bullshit adage:

Ukraine is an independent sovereign country, member of United Nations.

Military aggression is explicitly prohibited by the UN Charter.

Russia does not have any right to invade and destroy another country.

These are the facts and they are obvious to a three year old.

Consequently: anybody repeating Russia's bullshit talking points either has a mental capacity below that of a three-year old; or is doing that deliberately and for that there's a well known word: bullshitting; lying. Pick one because there arent' any other credible and plausible possibilities.

Edited by myata
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The US have a history of planting puppet regimes. 

Why do you think North Korea refuses to let go of their nuclear arsenal?

Ukraine let go of theirs, and look at them now.

The best means for peace, is deterrence.

What the US is doing right now, is fighting a proxy war with Russia, in Ukraine using Ukraine lives.

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35 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

The US have a history of planting puppet regimes. 

The thread is about some US politicians not understanding the implications of letting Putins of the world, today and future one, to have their ways. You will not derail it with Russia talking points. Defeating Putin in Ukraine is the only way back to any normalcy in the world.

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24 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

Two Americas Index: Ukraine divides conservatives

This is comparing two very different issues. Iraq was a war for America, with quite uncertain cause and unclear end (building a democracy in place of totalitarian regime). Ukraine is not a war for the US, but it's about democracy and the world, and future of UN Charter and rules. Looks like someone got seriously confused.

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7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Hey Pablito. For you and laughing-boy:

"Ukraine's 2010 presidential election, the fifth since the country regained its independence when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, was democratic and "organized in a transparent manner," the OSCE said today in an e-mailed statement.

"Yesterday's vote was an impressive display of democratic elections," said João Soares, the president of the OSCE's Parliamentary Assembly and Special Coordinator for OSCE short- term observers. "For everyone in Ukraine, this election was a victory. It is now time for the country's political leaders to listen to the people's verdict and make sure that the transition of power is peaceful and constructive."

And that's what they did, in 2010. Not so in the following years.

Eh, fatboy?   ?

Why is that? What was wrong with the 2019 election which brought Zelenskyy to power? 

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9 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

It certainly seems that way. I'm not here to teach you people history. Everyone can just go read what happened.

I suggest starting at least as far back as Feb 2014.

As for NATO, my favourite memory is when Don Trump whipped the rest of NATO asses, forcing deadbeats to pony up for what they originally signed onto. Deadbeat countries like Canada. In doing so he gave NATO a huge financial boost. And was praised by Jens Stolltenberg.

I might have that name wrong. I'm not here to teach you people history.

Seems like an invasion of an independent Democracy has convinced much of NATO to re-up on Defence spending. 

Trump didn't like NATO because Putin doesn't like NATO, simple as that. And now all you Conservative clones would rather Putin annex an independent nation than for Ukraine to win this war. Because that means NATO's support of Ukraine was actually successful. 

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1 minute ago, Boges said:

Seems like an invasion of an independent Democracy has convinced much of NATO to re-up on Defence spending. 

Trump didn't like NATO because Putin doesn't like NATO, simple as that. And now all you Conservative clones would rather Putin annex an independent nation than for Ukraine to win this war. Because that means NATO's support of Ukraine was actually successful. 

Ronald Reagan and all the Republicans told Americans we needed to spend TRILLIONS to stop Russian aggression. Suddenly, Republicans are in favor of Russian aggression!  

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Just now, Rebound said:

Ronald Reagan and all the Republicans told Americans we needed to spend TRILLIONS to stop Russian aggression. Suddenly, Republicans are in favor of Russian aggression!  

To be fair, the OP illustrates that it's only the more Trumpy side of the GOP that thinks Ukraine isn't worth supporting (I wonder why). 

There is a strong faction of the GOP that recognizes that supporting Putin here is absurdly hypocritical. Which means with Dem support the Pro Putin Crowd is a somewhat fringe minority. 

 

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