DeSantis on Ukraine

[myata]

8 minutes ago, robosmith said:

so NO LAND GRAB.

They know. Have to lie, what other options?

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Like, their word means anything?

Russia's word means nothing, but their bombs and crimes against humanity speak volumes. The longer this continues, isn't a win for anyone. They do not value human life. 

2 hours ago, myata said:

you cannot negotiate

Sure you can. Those negotiations start and end with you joining NATO.

2 hours ago, myata said:

they already used those

They wanted to show force. They have the power to annihilate Ukraine. 

This isn't a country that you push the back of against a wall. 

[Perspektiv]

51 minutes ago, robosmith said:

US is NOT occupying Iraq or Syria, so NO LAND GRAB.

This war wasn't intended as a land grab. They wanted to put a puppet regime in place, and control Ukraine. 

Exactly what the US did. 

[BeaverFever]

5 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

They have the power to annihilate Ukraine. 

 Clearly they don’t. 

[myata]

12 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Russia's word means nothing, but their bombs and crimes against humanity speak volumes. The longer this continues, isn't a win for anyone.

A gem of logic! How do you do it? He is a terrible criminal, let's end it right now and negotiate! So how do you end it, where's the magic word that would make Russia all of a sudden change her brutal and lying ways that are not a secret to anybody by now?

12 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

They have the power to annihilate Ukraine.

They have except they cannot. Makes sense.. in Russia.

12 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

This isn't a country that you push the back of against a wall.

Oh no you don't need to push it, it falls over of her own will every so few decades. Really could just have enjoyed its natural riches and be one of the wealthiest in the world ... but go figure.

Edited March 16, 2023 by myata

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

 Clearly they don’t. 

 They have had a year of failures on the battlefield. A year to learn and adapt. A year to ration weapons, fuel, and weapons properly. An entire winter to plan.

I don't think you realize how close Kiev came to be taken on the first wave. It took ingenious Ukrainian soldiers in destroying a dam, and thus flooding the terrain making it impossible for Russians to advance, or that city was toast.

Take the head, and the body will fall. They failed. The longer this goes, the more dangerous for Ukraine, not Russia.

 

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

This war wasn't intended as a land grab. They wanted to put a puppet regime in place, and control Ukraine. 

Exactly what the US did. 

Not in Iraq. MAYBE the first elected leader, but not those since.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, myata said:

He is a terrible criminal, let's end it right now and negotiate!

No, you negotiate from a strong point. You back them against the wall, suffocate them and offer them an exit ramp.

If their spring offensive suffocates you, then your negotiating hand dissappears and you must make a deal based on all of their demands.

Reality is, Russia will give it all it has, to take out Ukraine's president. That eliminates the need.

Like I said. The longer this goes, the more chances they get at his head, which by now likely has a staggering price on it.

[robosmith]

Back to the SUBJECT of the OP.

NOW:

Governor DeSantis told Fox News' Tucker Carlson in a lengthy statement that "becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia" is not a vital U.S. national interest, putting him on the side of Donald Trump and at odds with top congressional Republicans.  https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1635446265692532738

VERSUS THEN:

Ron DeSantis as a congressman in 2014 and 2015, urged then-President Obama to send "defensive and offensive" weapons to help Ukraine repel Russia's proxy forces in the east. As recently as 2017, DeSantis criticized Obama for refusing to send lethal aid to Ukraine and described himself as part of "the Reagan school that’s tough on Russia. https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/26/politics/ron-desantis-supported-ukraine-russia-kfile/index.html
 

Dethantis abandoning Reagan for Putin. ?

[Perspektiv]

1 minute ago, robosmith said:

MAYBE the first elected leader

Okay, so you confirm my point. Puppet regime inserted.

"None since" is irrelevant.

[robosmith]

8 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

 They have had a year of failures on the battlefield. A year to learn and adapt. A year to ration weapons, fuel, and weapons properly. An entire winter to plan.

I don't think you realize how close Kiev came to be taken on the first wave. It took ingenious Ukrainian soldiers in destroying a dam, and thus flooding the terrain making it impossible for Russians to advance, or that city was toast.

Take the head, and the body will fall. They failed. The longer this goes, the more dangerous for Ukraine, not Russia.

 

Russia is really hurting economically. Putin is reduced to appealing to Russian Oligarch's "patiriotism;" except they KNOW he is just a kleptocrat looking to LINE HIS OWN POCKETS with Ukrainian gas reserves.

[robosmith]

2 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Okay, so you confirm my point. Puppet regime inserted.

"None since" is irrelevant.

Hardly "irrelevant." A real puppet regime does NOT GO AWAY so quickly.

[Perspektiv]

Just now, robosmith said:

A real puppet regime does NOT GO AWAY so quickly.

So now a puppet regime must be real, to be called a puppet regime? 

Am from Haiti. They plugged in a puppet regime, and Haitians revolted against it.

You're essentially trying to deny the act and intent occurred.

It doesn't matter if they didn't succeed. The fact that they got a country's leader killed and bombed the living daylights out of the country just to get to that point speaks for itself.

[robosmith]

3 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

So now a puppet regime must be real, to be called a puppet regime? 

Am from Haiti. They plugged in a puppet regime, and Haitians revolted against it.

You're essentially trying to deny the act and intent occurred.

You certainly have not proven a "puppet regime" was inserted. 

I'm saying even if it WAS, it was NOT real because it gave way to democratically elected leaders as intended.

3 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

It doesn't matter if they didn't succeed. The fact that they got a country's leader killed and bombed the living daylights out of the country just to get to that point speaks for itself.

Yes, it matters whether it was perpetuating or led to DEMOCRACY AS INTENDED.

[Perspektiv]

13 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Yes, it matters whether it was perpetuating or led to DEMOCRACY AS INTENDED.

If you have sufficiently destroyed Iraq, it becomes irrelevant. 

Russia can do the same. 

[robosmith]

3 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

If you have sufficiently destroyed Iraq, it becomes irrelevant. 

Russia can do the same. 

Iraq has survived and the level of destruction DID NOT APPROACH that in Ukraine.

[Rebound]

5 hours ago, Mako said:

Do you realize that Ukrainian neo-Nazis have committed atrocities against ethnic Russians. Some of these atrocities occurred before the current war.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

How about a negotiated peace instead of endless ethnic warfare?

So Ukraine has people like Kyle Rittenhouse. How does that justify a full-on invasion?

[BeaverFever]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

 They have had a year of failures on the battlefield. A year to learn and adapt. A year to ration weapons, fuel, and weapons properly. An entire winter to plan.

I don't think you realize how close Kiev came to be taken on the first wave. It took ingenious Ukrainian soldiers in destroying a dam, and thus flooding the terrain making it impossible for Russians to advance, or that city was toast.

Take the head, and the body will fall. They failed. The longer this goes, the more dangerous for Ukraine, not Russia.

 

Nice “alternative history” there, Sergei. The Russian military failed against a military force a fraction of its size because the Russian military is incompetent and poorly led.   Their initial invasion forces ran out of gas and convoys were stalled on highways flat tires and troops came without basic equipment or rations.  
 

Russia’s situation has only gotten worse since. Now a permanent stalemate is their best possible outcome they could achieve. They’re down to deploying 60 year old tanks and their most effective secret weapon has been human waves of convicted rapists. It may be that in Russia rapists are an infinite national resource, Russia might even be a rapist superpower but I doubt it’s enough to win the war. 

[Mako]

5 hours ago, myata said:

"Peace" is the Russia's number two talking point (after Ukraine "Neo Nazis", having (Russia) committed crimes worthy or even eclipsing those of the Nazis themselves). But who is there to negotiate with? Whose word there is worth more than a crumpled piece of used bathroom paper?

Remember: Russia recognized sovereignty of Ukraine, including all borders, including Crimea in no less than five (5) international treaties.

Remember: Putin on the eve of aggression, "we will not invade".

There's nobody to negotiate with. It's a plain dumb tale aimed only at giving the criminal regime a bit of a breathing space to stock up and continue slaughter and brutality. It cannot be allowed to happen. Negotiating with Putins is no more likely than with a brutal, murderous psycho at the heat of a killing spree. Russia trolls are pumping the talking point because it's their job but amusing and informative too to observe some simple-minded folks falling for it.

Demonize your opponent and refuse all negotiations, then we’ll continue this stupid ethnic conflict forever.

I hope you enjoy the atrocities.

Are you working for Xi Jin Ping or Raytheon?

[robosmith]

18 minutes ago, Mako said:

Demonize your opponent and refuse all negotiations, then we’ll continue this stupid ethnic conflict forever.

I hope you enjoy the atrocities.

Are you working for Xi Jin Ping or Raytheon?

You don't even understand WHY Putin invaded, so your OPINIONS will never fix ANYTHING there.

Kleptocrat Putin wants Ukraine's sizeable GAS RESERVES off the South coast FOR HIMSELF.

Do you know how much of Russia's money Putin has STOLEN? 

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Nice “alternative history” there, Sergei. The Russian military failed against a military force a fraction of its size because the Russian military is incompetent and poorly led.   Their initial invasion forces ran out of gas and convoys were stalled on highways flat tires and troops came without basic equipment or rations.  
 

Russia’s situation has only gotten worse since. Now a permanent stalemate is their best possible outcome they could achieve. They’re down to deploying 60 year old tanks and their most effective secret weapon has been human waves of convicted rapists. It may be that in Russia rapists are an infinite national resource, Russia might even be a rapist superpower but I doubt it’s enough to win the war. 

From what I can see on this map, Russia isn't doing as badly as all that, but TBH I don' know for certain because I don't have much faith in any sources regarding this war:

https://www.ft.com/content/4351d5b0-0888-4b47-9368-6bc4dfbccbf5

Depending on what Russia's actual long-term territorial goals are, maybe the areas that Ukraine took back weren't areas that they really wanted.

Do you know the ethnic makeup of Kharkiv? Maybe it's extremely pro-Ukraine and it would have been to hard to hold, but they attacked there just to draw Ukraine's armies away from the areas that they really wanted. 

I really don't know any of this for certain because lying is a big part of war. These maps might be total BS, but it's harder to fake this kind of lie than it is to fake casualty stats, "intel" stating whose troops are starving/malnourished, who's short on ammo and supplies, who's lacking morale, who's committing atrocities & who's riding around on a white horse saving orphans, etc, etc, etc. 

If you believe everything Russia says and disregard the US and their proxies entirely you're a fool.

If you believe everything US and their proxies say and disregard the Russians entirely you're a fool.

The truth is always somewhere in between. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by WestCanMan

[BeaverFever]

Spineless DeSantis was for supporting Ukraine until 5 seconds ago  Now that he wants to rap up the MAGA vote for his presidential run he’s flip flopping 

 

2014

The U.S. House in 2014, then controlled by Republicans, passed the Ukraine Support Act, which authorized then-President Barack Obama to provide assistance to the nation after Russia occupied Crimea. The bill included sanctions against individuals in the Russian government supporting President Vladimir Putin. The legislation passed overwhelming bipartisan support, with a 399-19 vote.

DeSantis, then a Congressman, voted in support

2015

As most Republicans demanded Obama offer stronger support to Ukraine, then-U.S. Rep. DeSantis told conservative radio host Bill Bennett he wanted the administration to do more. CNNunearthed the interview for a report last month.

“We in the Congress have been urging the President, I’ve been, to provide arms to Ukraine. They want to fight their good fight. They’re not asking us to fight it for them. And the President has steadfastly refused. And I think that that’s a mistake,” DeSantis said at the time.

“I think that when someone like Putin sees Obama being indecisive, I think that whets his appetite to create more trouble in the area. And I think if we were to arm the Ukrainians, I think that would send a strong signal to him that he shouldn’t be going any further.”

2017

“A couple years ago, Obama was refusing to provide lethal aid to Ukraine, they were trying to do a reset. The Democrats lauded that. They viewed guys like me who are more of the (Ronald) Reagan school that’s tough on Russia as kind of throwbacks to the Cold War.“

 

2022

DeSantis refused to comment on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine last year until it was five days in. When he did, he praised Ukrainian leadership. At the time, he said President Biden needed to act tougher and bring sanctions against Putin and Russia.

“This is a guy who basically is an authoritarian gas station attendant — OK? — with some legacy nuclear weapons from the old Soviet Union,” DeSantis said of Putin. “Their whole society is hollowed out except for that energy. Hit him where it counts.”

He again offered praise to Trump and lamented Obama’s failures.

“The media spent four years saying that Trump was some type of agent of Russia,” DeSantis said.

“And yet, when I was in Congress when Obama was President, Obama refused to send weapons to Ukraine. When Trump was President, we sent weapons to Ukraine. Putin didn’t like that very much. When Obama was President, Putin took Crimea. When Trump was President, they didn’t take anything. And now Biden’s President and they’re rolling into Ukraine.”

 

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/595218-over-a-decade-ron-desantis-went-from-a-ukraine-hawk-to-opposing-u-s-support/

Edited March 17, 2023 by BeaverFever

[myata]

Just in the new age, since 20th century Russia has invaded and taken land from these neighbor countries: Finland; Norway; three Baltic states; Poland, Romania, part of Mongolia; Georgia; Moldova; and now, Ukraine. The list is likely incomplete.

I can almost bet that there's no other country alike on the entire planet, that makes invasion and robbery its mode of existence, that cannot exist any length of time without robbing and killing someone. You know the word for that, right?

A troll here peddles an idea that "a land adjustment" (note the word, means "robbery" in any human language) would have brought us "peace". But it takes a minute to find and read Putin's ultimatum manifesto in the days preceding the aggression. It was not to Ukraine, not so much about Ukraine but to NATO itself; at the height of his delusion he thought himself some king of the planet to give orders and directives to free nations. It takes another minute to find Russia's lies that it had no intent to attack. What "peace" would we be talking now if peaceful, soulful and smiley Russia didn't attack anyone, treacherously and brutally?

Now trolls are left to their lies working their jobs as Russia's brutal, criminal ass is going to be kicked again; and again till it wriggles away crying sorely for being "deceived" and punished unjustly having robbed and killed uncounted scores of people, human beings. It always does that, routinely, nothing new there; but folks here who choose to cheer for it out of their own volition have such a deep problem with reality and critical, objective view of it I couldn't even put a word on.

Imagine a world where Putins are rewarded for their horrible crimes and grow to dominate. You know another word for it, see it? Not even Hell it's the apocalypse, not possibility and probability but guaranteed and assured, not if, then. Still looking to have your wish?

Edited March 17, 2023 by myata

[Mako]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Just in the new age, since 20th century Russia has invaded and taken land from these neighbor countries: Finland; Norway; three Baltic states; Poland, Romania, part of Mongolia; Georgia; Moldova; and now, Ukraine. The list is likely incomplete.

I can almost bet that there's no other country alike on the entire planet, that makes invasion and robbery its mode of existence, that cannot exist any length of time without robbing and killing someone. You know the word for that, right?

A troll here peddles an idea that "a land adjustment" (note the word, means "robbery" in any human language) would have brought us "peace". But it takes a minute to find and read Putin's ultimatum manifesto in the days preceding the aggression. It was not to Ukraine, not so much about Ukraine but to NATO itself; at the height of his delusion he thought himself some king of the planet to give orders and directives to free nations. It takes another minute to find Russia's lies that it had no intent to attack. What "peace" would we be talking now if peaceful, soulful and smiley Russia didn't attack anyone, treacherously and brutally?

Now trolls are left to their lies working their jobs as Russia's brutal, criminal ass is going to be kicked again; and again till it wriggles away crying sorely for being "deceived" and punished unjustly having robbed and killed uncounted scores of people, human beings. It always does that, routinely, nothing new there; but folks here who choose to cheer for it out of their own volition have such a deep problem with reality and critical, objective view of it I couldn't even put a word on.

Imagine a world where Putins are rewarded for their horrible crimes and grow to dominate. You know another word for it, see it? Not even Hell it's the apocalypse, not possibility and probability but guaranteed and assured, not if, then. Still looking to have your wish?

Well Stalin did seize territory when he was allied with Hitler. And then after WW II Stalin grabbed more territory, but that was a long time ago.

Russians may accept the limited gains they’ve made during the war.

Powerful countries bully smaller countries or ethnicities all the time. The Chinese bully the Uyghurs. The Saudis bully the Yemenis. The Israelis bully the Palestinians.

Should the U.S. be the global policeman?

The Taliban aren’t so nice. Should we get involved in Afghanistan again?

Ethnic Russians live in the Donbas. Border adjustments and negotiations might bring peace.

The CCP is happy to see NATO and Russia at war.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2023/02/10/niall_ferguson_the_net_beneficiary_of_the_ukraine_war_is_china.html#!

[myata]

17 minutes ago, Mako said:

but that was a long time ago.

Already after the Berlin wall and in this century: Baltic states, Moldova, Georgia, now Ukraine, threats to Finland, Sweden and other European countries. Liar. Russia troll.

19 minutes ago, Mako said:

Russians may accept the limited gains

They'll accept a kick in the stinking thuggish ass and keep accepting them till they figure out the direction they need to head in and asap: after the Russian Navy ship; in the international language, go f*ck themselves in any way they prefer but inside their totalitarian zoo, and that's not conditional.

24 minutes ago, Mako said:

Should the U.S. be the global policeman?

After the Russian Navy ship, tovarisch!

24 minutes ago, Mako said:

Should we get involved in Afghanistan again?

You will get hate and retribution whenever and wherever you get involved in, tovarisch. There's a logical reason for that too. Try figuring it out, not hard at all.

26 minutes ago, Mako said:

The CCP is happy to

f*ck you in every way they see fit, tovarisch.