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Should First Nations have their own country?


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1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Wasn't this act the first thing that Justin Trudeau repealed after gaining office?

That wouldn't surprise me at all.  He got rid of the barbaric cultural practices act too, I think.

Edited by bcsapper
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I'm no experdt on natives but around here it seems they've got pretty good autonomy already. Got their own township, and police. I heard the OPP aren't allowed in there.

Every time I drive through we go past these big houses on nice plots of land, big trucks in the driveway, boats and quads, I say to my wife "these people have got it made!" 

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14 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Every time I drive through we go past these big houses on nice plots of land, big trucks in the driveway, boats and quads, I say to my wife "these people have got it made!"

Negotiating, reconciliation, and signing treaties are one of the biggest economic drivers in my region.

Boat yards, mechanics, construction crews, logging contractors, you name it, they all seem to have it made too.

A resurgent albeit smaller scale more value added industrial sector surrounding 1st Nation's greater access to natural resources is refilling some of the hollowed out aspects of our region's economic base.

Edited by eyeball
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16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

A resurgent albeit smaller scale more value added industrial sector surrounding 1st Nation's greater access to natural resources is refilling some of the hollowed out aspects of our region's economic base.

I don't know how they do it out there, but here they make a killing selling native gas and smokes. And now the native wacko tobacco, Kemosabe   ;)

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Have you actually read a modern treaty? You really should, I'm pretty sure they're shorter than the Bible which you've probably read 10 times by now. You will find nothing that mentions new country's, putting non-natives on reserves or making them 'go home' although I suspect many natives and non-natives alike would cheer if you did.

As for me where am I going to go home to, Earth?  Oh, wait a minute. 

Many FNs, particularly their leaders and red power activists and their leftist supporters are constantly complaining and demanding self-government.  You can't solve that and they are only about 4.5% of the population.  The rest of us are 95% of population and are tired of listening to it and tired of paying endlessly.  This will never end.  The majority of Canadians should be able to make that decision.

I don't understand what your problem is.  Who cares if a new country is not mentioned.  They want self-government and independence.  There is no other way to give it to them unless you give them a piece of land to have a place where they can be independent and sovereign.  You have not given any other solution.  Just complain about any suggestion.

You either give them their own area or listen to their demands forever and continue to pay billions to them forever.  Which is worse?  Giving them a piece of land and saying that is your country.  Or listening to endless demands and paying forever?

Edited by blackbird
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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I don't understand what your problem is.  Who cares if a new country is not mentioned.  They want self-government and independence.  There is no other way to give it to them unless you give them a piece of land to have a place where they can be independent and sovereign.  You have not given any other solution.  Just complain about any suggestion.

Okay so call it an independent country then if that's what folks in your region negotiate and insist on calling it.  That's not how anyone thinks about it where I live because it's not that simple.  Granted there is probably a reasonable case to be made for real independence for Haida Gwaii simply based on it's geography and the fact it's about as tangibly real and identifiable a bioregion as it gets.  

The problem is that I essentially want the same thing which is more regional autonomy that incorporates the values of the people who live here in its governance. It's a better model for sustainability that the planet could follow that I believe in and actually helped bring about.  As I've said before many revolutions around the world have coalesced around indigenous people's aspirations and I see that happening here where I live in the post-treaty 1st Nation's territory I've called home for 50 years now.  Of particular interest and pride for me personally is that DFO's voice just isn't as large and powerful as it once felt like.

I'm living the solution and I'm not complaining at all.

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4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Granted there is probably a reasonable case to be made for real independence for Haida Gwaii

I never suggested a tribe should be given whatever territory they want or claim.  I don't suggest "negotiating" and giving FNs what they want.  The fact is they claim the whole province.  They can't have whatever they want.  They are a tiny percentage of the population.  They would have to take what they are given if they want to go that route and be self-governing.  As a small population, they don't need more than their share of the land.   No I wouldn't give them Haida Gwaii.  Maybe 10% of it on the west coast  Maybe a few small pieces of land on the coast.  We would have to give more than one piece of land.  Maybe a small percentage of Vancouver Island.  But all other tribes and reserves on the island would have to move to that area.  

You must know they are never satisfied and always want more.  They never will be satisfied.  It's time to change our approach because the present approach is not working.  Continenta Horn, a famous native woman said white man will always be paying.  It will never end.

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22 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I never suggested a tribe should be given whatever territory they want or claim.  I don't suggest "negotiating" and giving FNs what they want.  The fact is they claim the whole province. 

Overlapping claims cover the province but no one is actually claiming the province. See the difference?

Quote

They can't have whatever they want.  They are a tiny percentage of the population.  They would have to take what they are given if they want to go that route and be self-governing.  As a small population, they don't need more than their share of the land.   No I wouldn't give them Haida Gwaii.  Maybe 10% of it on the west coast  Maybe a few small pieces of land on the coast.  We would have to give more than one piece of land.  Maybe a small percentage of Vancouver Island.  But all other tribes and reserves on the island would have to move to that area.

Hey, look who's negotiating all of a sudden! Good luck with it!

Quote

You must know they are never satisfied and always want more.  They never will be satisfied.  It's time to change our approach because the present approach is not working. 

It seems to be working where I live. You shouldn't say it can't be done to someone who's doing it.

Quote

Continenta Horn, a famous native woman said white man will always be paying.  It will never end.

Sure it will. Just not in our lifetimes. 

 

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8 hours ago, eyeball said:

You shouldn't say it can't be done to someone who's doing it.

Doing what?  Who has the right to give aboriginals lands when the millions of people who might be effected had no idea what is going on or any say?  

 

8 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure it will. Just not in our lifetimes. 

No sign that the demands will ever end.   Most people believe the demands will never end.  The government already paid 3 billion dollars out to residential school survivors.  Just signed a deal for another 2.8 billion dollars.  We haven't even begun with the unmarked graves which could cost billions.  Then there will be endless demands for colonization and settlement.  If they are given self-government which is the direction the BC NDP is going, they will want billions to set up their own justice system.  What about a separate health care system next?   Separate schools and universities?  Who do you think is paying for houses, roads, water systems, and infrastructure for FNs.  Everything.  On and on it goes. 

White man will be expected to pay for it all if the lefties, liberals, and woke have their way.   This is the problem the woke and lefties are creating and going to leave for our grandchildren.  If you are part of it, that is what you are doing.  Creating a nightmare and destroying the future.   This is what UNDRIP is also pushing us into and the liberals are falling for it.  People like yourself.

Edited by blackbird
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13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I'm no experdt on natives but around here it seems they've got pretty good autonomy already. Got their own township, and police. I heard the OPP aren't allowed in there.

Every time I drive through we go past these big houses on nice plots of land, big trucks in the driveway, boats and quads, I say to my wife "these people have got it made!" 

And where do they get the money??? LOL

 

Yeah, let them have their own country but, then let them be on their own, all own, no more money or support form Canada.

Same goes for Quebec.

Edited by ExFlyer
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The 'First Immigrants' (FI) on Vancouver Island have posted No Trespassing signage on their reserves and some other lands under contention. Yet, they collectively use the infrastructure 'off reserve' . . . . It's not unusual to see young men of employable and working age, mid-day, off reserve, with wife and gaggle of children all ages. The sad fact is that there are generations of FI men in particular that just don't know how to work, or know the satisfaction of providing for their families.  Possibly their fathers and grand-fathers never worked either. 

I logged with many FI fellows, and to a person, they have said that the best thing they have ever done was to get off the reserve . . . never to return.  

There are big problems ahead for both FI and non-FI with the way past and present Federal and Provincial governments have come under the non-elected influence of the UN (UNDRIP).  When there are vast sums of money poured into FI reserves with no accounting ever . . . there is a problem.  Harper's 'Transparency Act' was meant to get a handle on this problem . . . elected chiefs and their entourage in fine homes, Cadillac Escalade in the driveway, meetings in Hawaii, and next door to a single mom in her hovel, kids doing drugs . . . . . 

Trudeau repealed the Transparency Act . . . . 

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29 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

They never chose their reservations.  They were forcefully put there, and the idea that the poorest of the poor can suddenly move to the city and get a good job is asinine. 

LOL. The poorest of the poor have been picking up stakes and moving to where there are better jobs or a better life for them or their kids for thousands of years! Why do you think there are so many people from Atlantic Canada in Alberta? Why do you think all those people are walking north from all the way down in South America to the US and sometimes even beyond to our border?

Natives can't even take a bus up the highway?!

Edited by I am Groot
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"

His story is worth telling. He took over as chief of the southern Saskatchewan band in 1991, when he was only 23 years old. The band’s books were in bad shape, and his people were on the brink of third-party management. Two decades later, the Whitecap Dakota are in the black. Bear spoke of plans to build a hotel and a business park. His band even operates a golf course. Bear earns a tidy sum, as do the band’s two elected councillors. “We have been able to generate a lot of our own-source revenues, so we can top up salaries and make sure we can be competitive,” he told the aboriginal affairs committee.

Bear said he’s happy to disclose his own salary, and pointed out that he has no say in his own paycheque. “We actually have a chief and council compensation commission in our community that’s made up of our membership,” he says. “They set our salaries; we don’t set our salaries.” Fast forward two years, and now we all know Bear’s salary last year: $129,519, plus $14,860 in benefits. We also know that his two councillors, Frank Royal and Dwayne Eagle, each took home $102,473 (plus benefits)."

First Nations transparency: a deeper look at chiefs' earnings (macleans.ca)

There are things native bands could do to create profitable businesses in some places if they were only motivated.

The Osooyoos band in the Okanogan is one example of a band that apparently has done well.  There are other examples.  There was a well known native who became a lawyer in B.C. and wrote at least one book.  He also taught the martial arts.  But he left the reserve and went to Vancouver to get educated.  He did well.  His book is all about success through self effort.  That's what is needed.  The left has the wrong idea.  There are other examples of native bands that have made a success of themselves too.  I think there is a band up in the tar sands in Alberta that has done well too.

Edited by blackbird
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Are there any possible downsides to this proposed balkanization of our country?

Once these guys have their own country/countries, do they still get to vote in our elections? Can they still run for office here?

As independent nations, barely paying tax, if any, what right would they really have to ask for money? (Sounds like kids saying "I want to move into the basement suite, I want a locked door and you don't get a key, I want free utilities and rent, and I want to keep my allowance.")

To what extent do they get to deal with other countries as sovereign nations? 

Honestly, it never ends. Nothing will ever be enough for people who just don't like to be a part of a larger group. The whole topic is a joke. 

This reminds me of when movies get romantic about the old clan system in Scotland... It seems cool that they had a whole bunch of little fiefdoms to lord over individually, but in reality it sucked, bigtime. The number of people killed in civil wars within Scotland is down by quite a bit since the old days of feudalism.

I get that the same argument could be made for globalization, but there's a big difference between people in Angus & Ross having a leader from Carrick, and people in Zimbabwe and Switzerland having a leader from Iraq. We're many generations away from successfully amalgamating all the countries on the planet into a shiny, happy country run by "The Trusted News Initiative".

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21 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

They never chose their reservations.  They were forcefully put there, and the idea that the poorest of the poor can suddenly move to the city and get a good job is asinine. 

I'm afraid that's not true. They weren't "Forcably" put anywhere. You're thinking of the US.  And first nations are not the 'poorest of the poor'. For the most part the yhave all the access to education and other resources they would need. Moreso than many poor people from other nations or ethnic groups.

It is racist and demeaning beyond belief to suggest that first nations people could not make their way in life off the resere as well as any other group.

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On 3/2/2023 at 8:31 AM, Nefarious Banana said:

I logged with many FI fellows, and to a person, they have said that the best thing they have ever done was to get off the reserve . . . never to return.  

FN people lived in the frozen north for 10,000 years with just stone age technology. If you never heard of the Inuit before and someone just told you about them today, you'd think the story was BS. Living in homes made of ice ?? Impossible.

They're probably the toughest, most resilient people on the planet.

And I don't think gov't handouts are a blessing for them. I just don't.

I think it's sad how the whole FN situation is discussed, and without some kind of sovereignty I get how they feel 'less than'. We need to deal with that issue, because that's a real problem, and it's hard for kids to grow up like that.

I just don't feel like the way they get money is the answer. It's making them weaker, not stronger.

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22 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

They never chose their reservations.  They were forcefully put there, and the idea that the poorest of the poor can suddenly move to the city and get a good job is asinine. 

When was the last time any FN people were forced to live any where, and there are thousands that have left the reserve got jobs and have done well on their own. People do this across the country every day, it has got nothing to do with being poor, it has everything to do with having the will to get out and make your own foot print on the world. 

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2 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

When was the last time any FN people were forced to live any where, and there are thousands that have left the reserve got jobs and have done well on their own. People do this across the country every day, it has got nothing to do with being poor, it has everything to do with having the will to get out and make your own foot print on the world. 

Or boot print, as the case may be :)

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