Advice to Poilievre: Canada is a good country, Appeal to higher angels

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I just zeroed in on this part and realized who I am talking to. 

Yes, the Conservative Party which will win the elections if your ilk does not bore us with the same hysteria. 

You don't get this advice from @Moonbox he just tares your logic apart, I don't think I am as  "ruthless". 😄

Just speaking to the realities of the voters. If they hear your screams, they might stick with the Liberals, which including this "phony" centrist will not like. 

Is your game though, but it works against you is my view.

Ilk?   Listen to yourself.  Who are you pandering to?  You think you sound moderate?  You have a lot to learn.  Your political views are uncritical.  Be specific.  If you want to criticize a particular policy or perspective and can support your statements with facts and sound arguments I’ll take you seriously.

You just want the Conservatives to be identical to the Liberals.  Don’t worry, they probably will be. I don’t care whether my views align enough with a party or perspective. I’m not here to get people elected if I don’t support their positions.  Wake up!

Edited February 7 by Zeitgeist

[Contrarian]

54 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Ilk?   Listen to yourself.  Who are you pandering to?  You think you sound moderate?  You have a lot to learn.  Your political views are uncritical.  Be specific.  If you want to criticize a particular policy or perspective and can support your statements with facts and sound arguments I’ll take you seriously.

Yes, is ilk a bad word? Just means, my take anyways, people that gave up on the status quo and push undercover Marxist theories because they had personal issues or dissapointments. You said nobody in Canada is opposition. So you propose a different system like @myata? "Destroy and rebuild"? 

I emphatize, don't sympathize.

But no irony here, thank you for calling me a Canadian, it means we can conversate, hope you can understand why always my towers are up since others called me every name in the sun, including a foreigner. I earned this citizenship legally and you recognize that. You are a reasonable man.

Edited February 7 by Contrarian

[Nationalist]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Are you sure that's the government, or is it the professional society that governs psychologists in Canada? 

Jordan Peterson stopped practicing Psychology in any recognizable form close to 10 years ago, selling out to get in front of the mob of dumdums to echo their anger back at him.  His fellows want to take away his license because he's an embarrassment to the profession.  

OPPOSE EVERYTHING!  Be angry about EVERYTHING!  Believe NOTHING (unless it comes from a Slovenian troll-farm)!  

You are a funny guy.  

They are a government agency who are targeting Peterson for his refusal to comply with their speech law.

Yes. I oppose everything about Pixie-Dust and his band of nation destroyers.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

So you propose a different system like @myata? "Destroy and rebuild"? 

A step sideways from a track beaten by a million mindless, zombi-automatic steps into exactly same footprint is a truly scary undertaking, an unacceptable horrible risk, "destroy and rebuild", a catastrophe. For a dinosaur.

"Why bother".

[Contrarian]

9 minutes ago, myata said:

A step sideways from a track beaten by a million mindless, zombi-automatic steps into exactly same footprint is a truly scary undertaking, an unacceptable horrible risk, "destroy and rebuild", a catastrophe. 

Of course is a risk. so why the risk? This is what Marxists proposed, to shake the system at its core and be replaced by their perfect engineering because of their issues.

Do you think sometimes you sound like them? I don't think your mind would agree with such a system, the practical results, you are not the follower type to oppress for ideal. Too smart for that, yet still falls for the theory it seems.

Edited February 7 by Contrarian

[Michael Hardner]

52 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

... still falls for the theory it seems.

This is what populism does: enrages the peasants to enlist them in installing the bourgeoisie as the government.  Then kills them and let's the rest go back to sleep.  

[I am Groot]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

This is what populism does: enrages the peasants to enlist them in installing the bourgeoisie as the government.  Then kills them and let's the rest go back to sleep.  

It is a rare populist who can enrage people who are not already angry. In most cases what they do is harness existing anger and direct it at the government. Or if they're the government, then at someone else.

People are not angry because of anything Poilievre has said or done. They're angry because of shitty healthcare, impossible to afford homes and rents and rising food costs while the government throws away millions and billions on buying votes.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, I am Groot said:

1. It is a rare populist who can enrage people who are not already angry. In most cases what they do is harness existing anger and direct it at the government. Or if they're the government, then at someone else.

2. People are not angry because of anything Poilievre has said or done. They're angry because of shitty healthcare, impossible to afford homes and rents and rising food costs while the government throws away millions and billions on buying votes.

1. Sure.
2. Oh, you think the anger is VALID.  Well, for the purposes of this conversation only: I don't care.  You can talk about weather patterns or complain about how cold it is, those are two different conversations.

[I am Groot]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

1. Sure.
2. Oh, you think the anger is VALID.  Well, for the purposes of this conversation only: I don't care.  You can talk about weather patterns or complain about how cold it is, those are two different conversations.

This topic is about advice to Poilievre. And the advice of 'be nice and appeal to people's niceness' has never worked politically and never will. That's why  no one uses it. Not the Liberals, not the NDP, not the Greens, not the BQ and not the Tories.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. This topic is about advice to Poilievre.
2. And the advice of 'be nice and appeal to people's niceness' has never worked politically and never will.
3. That's why  no one uses it. Not the Liberals, not the NDP, not the Greens, not the BQ and not the Tories.

1. Sorry, yes, I may be drifting this...
2. I just realized that you are a lot younger than me.  Nobody who voted in a Bill Davis election would have said that.
3. You don't think Justin started out as Mr. Nice Guy ?  Those evil socks ?

[I am Groot]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Sorry, yes, I may be drifting this...
2. I just realized that you are a lot younger than me.  Nobody who voted in a Bill Davis election would have said that.
3. You don't think Justin started out as Mr. Nice Guy ?  Those evil socks ?

Strike never and substitute 'has not worked in decades'. It's a different world. No, Trudeau started out blaming 'the rich' and promising to take more money from them and give it to the more 'deserving' middle class. He appealed to people's resentment and greed. His time in office has been marked by him blaming people for various improper ways of thinking and behaving in order to curry favor with specific identity groups. Or to draw in another topic you and I were just discussing, to make things sound worse than they are to Muslims and then set himself up as their protector. "Look at how much danger and hatred of Islam there is! Only I care about you. Only I can protect you! Vote for me!"

People seem to always be calling out populism from the Right but largely ignore it on the Left. Perhaps because our society and culture have been influenced by the revelations of how evil the Nazis were but has never taken in how evil the Communists were to the same degree. 

Edited February 7 by I am Groot

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Jordan Peterson is brilliant.  Your criticism of him is shallow and ill-informed.  I’m glad you reveal your ignorance.

I used to admire Jordan Peterson 5-6 years ago (back when he was actually still making academic arguments and focusing on things like free speech).  He's undoubtedly smart, but he uses this gift to cash out on grievance-peddling, and he's a total charlatan now.  I suspect he'd be happy to lose his psychology license, as this sort of "martyrdom"  would undoubtedly endear him to his audience of incels and other ignorant losers.  

 

 

[eyeball]

31 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

People are not angry because of anything Poilievre has said or done. They're angry because of shitty healthcare, impossible to afford homes and rents and rising food costs while the government throws away millions and billions on buying votes.

I bet they're just as uninspired. People are angry because everything is becoming less sustainable.  PP says Canada is broken but it's actually the world that's breaking down.

Now that sustainability issues are getting closer to the ground where people can't help but notice and the anger starts turning to fear politicians won't have much if anything left to work with either.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. Strike never and substitute 'has not worked in decades'. It's a different world.
2. No, Trudeau started out blaming 'the rich' and promising to take more money from them and give it to the more 'deserving' middle class.
3. He appealed to people's resentment and greed. His time in office has been marked by him blaming people for various improper ways of thinking and behaving in order to curry favor with specific identity groups. Or to draw in another topic you and I were just discussing, to make things sound worse than they are to Muslims and then set himself up as their protector. "Look at how much danger and hatred of Islam there is! Only I care about you. Only I can protect you! Vote for me.
4. People seem to always be calling out populism from the Right but largely ignore it on the Left. Perhaps because our society and culture have been influenced by the revelations of how evil the Nazis were but has never taken in how evil the Communists were to the same degree. 

1. Check

2. Really ?  I don't remember anything like that but ok.

3. Ok, this is about you not liking Trudeau.  I have no opinion on that.  But it's generally a good idea to box your emotions and put them aside when doing analysis.  Neither Trudeau nor Poilievre get me angry... I would say Poilievre appeals more to the "angry Canadian" than Trudeau but it's hard to compare traditional politics with populism.

4. I will never acknowledge Trudeau as being "on the left".  The NDP, sure, but not him.  As such, left-wing populism died with Huey Long et. al.   

[I am Groot]

21 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I used to admire Jordan Peterson 5-6 years ago (back when he was actually still making academic arguments and focusing on things like free speech).  He's undoubtedly smart, but he uses this gift to cash out on grievance-peddling, and he's a total charlatan now.  I suspect he'd be happy to lose his psychology license, as this sort of "martyrdom"  would undoubtedly endear him to his audience of incels and other ignorant losers.  

I disagree. I DO agree that he's veered into dumb places a lot since his near death experience with antidepressants. But he doesn't need to cash out anything. The guy has been raking in millions since he became a public figure. And I might point out that one of the things he's often been quoted as saying is that more money does not bring more happiness. That once you have enough money to pay the bills and live a decent enough life extra money is largely unimportant.

He still can make some very interesting and worthwhile points. I recently saw an interview/discussion between him and Glen Loury where they discussed the problem of people with really low intelligence, and what place there might be for them in the world (almost none). And how that accounts for like ten percent of the population. Quite interest.

As for the 'incel' comment, which is a kind of routine insult flung his way I really don't see it. His number one  theme is that people, esp men, need to take responsibility for themselves, need to clean up their lives, do something worthwhile. And that a man who doesn't is worthless to women. I've never heard him blame women for anything. As far as I know his view is if women don't want you that's almost certainly your own damn fault and you should change the way you act and behave. Women don't like weaklings and whiners. 

[Michael Hardner]

26 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. I used to admire Jordan Peterson 5-6 years ago (back when he was actually still making academic arguments and focusing on things like free speech).  He's undoubtedly smart, but he uses this gift to cash out on grievance-peddling, and he's a total charlatan now.  

1. He's a complete fraud and believes his own publicity.  Imagine you are going to debate a renowned Marxist scholar in front of the world, and you don't read ANY of Marx's political & economic work "Das Kapital" and instead read the 23-page call to arms "The Communist Manifesto".  Then you go to the debate and talk about Marx at length.

I would fail a high school student for such a stunt, and yet this is where we are with our intellectuals today.

[I am Groot]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Check

2. Really ?  I don't remember anything like that but ok.

It was his main campaign plank in 2015.

https://www.reuters.com/article/cnews-us-canada-politics-trudeau-idCAKBN0NP1RP20150504

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Ok, this is about you not liking Trudeau.  I have no opinion on that.  But it's generally a good idea to box your emotions and put them aside when doing analysis.

Don't make assumptions. You're putting the cart before the horse and assuming I don't like Trudeau and so am criticizing his policies. Isn't it just as likely that I believe his policies have been bad and deliberately divisive and that is why I don't like him?

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. I will never acknowledge Trudeau as being "on the left".  The NDP, sure, but not him.  As such, left-wing populism died with Huey Long et. al.   

What do you regard as being on the Left? Castro? Trudeau has largely absorbed the policies of the NDP. And I make a distinction here between the federal NDP and its western counterparts. The federal NDP is the creature of college academics and public sector unions. It couldn't care less about blue collar workers, who don't speak their language and have often offensive views. It cares primarily about identity politics - same same as the Liberals.

[I am Groot]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. He's a complete fraud and believes his own publicity.  Imagine you are going to debate a renowned Marxist scholar in front of the world, and you don't read ANY of Marx's political & economic work "Das Kapital" and instead read the 23-page call to arms "The Communist Manifesto".  Then you go to the debate and talk about Marx at length.
 

Ok, this is about you not liking Peterson.  I have no opinion on that.  But it's generally a good idea to box your emotions and put them aside when doing analysis.

Are you suggesting Peterson has never read Marx?

Edited February 7 by I am Groot

[Contrarian]

50 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I used to admire Jordan Peterson 5-6 years ago (back when he was actually still making academic arguments and focusing on things like free speech).  He's undoubtedly smart, but 

I agree about his beginning.

Then human came across the biggest drug: power. 

Is part of capitalism to make a dollar but presenting himself as some sort of guru lately is insulting, to me anyways.

He's just a man in my opinion that was necessary to rattle the far left stupidity at that time and remind that group of their limitations.

--> then this was traded with comfort and getting followers, anyone goes, fear mongering here and there too. Business with customers.

Edited February 7 by Contrarian

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

I used to admire Jordan Peterson 5-6 years ago (back when he was actually still making academic arguments and focusing on things like free speech).  He's undoubtedly smart, but he uses this gift to cash out on grievance-peddling, and he's a total charlatan now.  I suspect he'd be happy to lose his psychology license, as this sort of "martyrdom"  would undoubtedly endear him to his audience of incels and other ignorant losers.  

 

 

Maybe you don’t like Peterson now that he’s standing up to the woke mob that’s created a chill over free speech and turned university campuses into EDI indoctrination centres.  Basically he is one of a few brave as yet uncancellable voices.  Liberal Arts education is gone. University debates are finished.

I experience this movement first hand in the workplace. People are saying what they don’t believe out of fear.  I feel sorry for the vast majority of people who don’t have Jordan’s platform and influence who have been canceled and silenced.  Parts of the US left are taking up the cause of defending academic freedom and keeping ideologues from imposing political agendas on faculty and curriculum. However, Canadians have folded under the pressures of this inquisition. Our Constitution seems to be too weak and/or the courts, media, and the stakeholder capitalists running our corporations are reinforcing the groupthink identity politics.

If you don’t believe the woke-green orthodoxies in Canada, as defined top-down by government Ministries, you’re a sitting duck.  Even Peterson is struggling to escape the wrath.

Edited February 7 by Zeitgeist

[Michael Hardner]

51 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. What do you regard as being on the Left? Castro? Trudeau has largely absorbed the policies of the NDP. And I make a distinction here between the federal NDP and its western counterparts. The federal NDP is the creature of college academics and public sector unions. It couldn't care less about blue collar workers, who don't speak their language and have often offensive views. It cares primarily about identity politics - same same as the Liberals.

1. Take identity politics out, then examine economic policies with regards to nationalization, taxation and so on.  I can concede Trudeau is centre-left at best.  In any case left "populism" was once a real thing and not like today.

[Michael Hardner]

55 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. Ok, this is about you not liking Peterson.  I have no opinion on that.  But it's generally a good idea to box your emotions and put them aside when doing analysis.

2. Are you suggesting Peterson has never read Marx?

1. No, not at all.  I used to like him.  I see what you did there.
2.  His quoting of the manifesto and completely stupid statements would indicate he knows as much about Marx as the other topics he regularly soils himself on like Climate Change.... he's a fraud, ignore him.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No, not at all.  I used to like him.  I see what you did there.
2.  His quoting of the manifesto and completely stupid statements would indicate he knows as much about Marx as the other topics he regularly soils himself on like Climate Change.... he's a fraud, ignore him.

Michael I’m surprised at you.  Peterson worked for the UN and has demonstrated quite deep knowledge of green energy.  He takes Lomberg’s perspective on climate change, which doesn’t deny it exists but brings in important doses of realism regarding what can reasonably be done.  Peterson doesn’t pretend to be an expert on the subject.  I’m not defending his knowledge universally across subjects, but I find it sad that you’re piling on against him without specifics.  This seems to be the pattern.  Did the Star or Globe and Mail tell you he’s a bad guy?

[I am Groot]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Take identity politics out, then examine economic policies with regards to nationalization, taxation and so on.  I can concede Trudeau is centre-left at best.  In any case left "populism" was once a real thing and not like today.

Which NDP? The Mulcair NDP or the Singh NDP? I'm not aware of any NDP policies on nationalization but the Mulcair NDP vowed fiscal discipline and to be more business friendly. Liberals have raised taxes already on higher earners while lowering it or eliminating it on lower earners. Would the NDP do it more enthusiastically? Perhaps, but the rate is already nearing the limit beyond which talented people leave the country (some already have) and the heads of major companies move their head offices to the US. 

[I am Groot]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No, not at all.  I used to like him.  I see what you did there.
2.  His quoting of the manifesto and completely stupid statements would indicate he knows as much about Marx as the other topics he regularly soils himself on like Climate Change.... he's a fraud, ignore him.

No. That's not how I work. I ignore him on certain subjects because he sound silly. On psychological topics, though, he sounds quite sensible most of the time. And I believe Marx, and I am far from an expert, produced an unworkable system which ignores human motivation. 

On climate change, he has his opinion just like you do. My opinion tends to be similar to his in that I believe the scientists but also believe the proposed solution brought down by politicians is unworkable and will never achieve anything of substance but increasing poverty levels.

Edited February 7 by I am Groot