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Advice to Poilievre: Canada is a good country, Appeal to higher angels


August1991

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9 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

and that's just one among many of Jordan Peterson's bizarre contradictions.  Women don't like weaklings and whiners, he says, an they "should be picky", but then the man spends his time and energy talking about how unfortunate and marginalized young white men are, fostering their anxieties and victim complex.  Yay.   

Do you think marginalized men (I've never heard him referring to simply white men) are not perhaps encouraged to be less whiny and to take responsibility by listening to his advice? He's not incorrect about the problems faced by young men and boys, who increasingly perform less well, academically, than young women and girls. He's also not wrong in trying to tell them how to do better.

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4 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. I don't care enough about Marx to bother. It's a failed ideology, a failed economic model.

2. What about what he says is incorrect? 

1. It's also a critical framework, and an examination of history.  If you like watching Peterson because there are some good bits you should also read Marx by principle.
2. I have to turn him off when he talks about things that aren't "self help"... saying "there's no such thing as climate" on climate change, talking about Nietzsche and saying "he was right about this" "wrong about that" is ridiculous, he's way out of his depth with no clue... saying Marx didn't consider the limits of nature, critiquing economic theory.... 

I'm too old to be hoodwinked...  I can listen to people who are wrong but not people who just talk out their ass.  

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16 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

1. Karl Heinrich Marx was piece of human waste which took years out of my life via his theories including family, society, dreams of progress IN MY OWN HOME.

2. The theories that you born here Westerners keep talking about with such a high regard lead to tragedies the same as Mein Kampf. 

3. Don't give a rats something about "critique" and the intellectual value of a rat, Marx, a low life which spat even on his own community to push his garbage.

4. Das Kapital if it was up to me would have the same status as Mein Kampf. I look at the end results, don't care about the surface literature. The program is not compatible with humanity.

5. That is my postion.

1. Sorry for your loss.
2. Ok.
3. A lot of people feel that way about Jesus too.  I don't.  We have a guy on here who follows a clown like Jordan Peterson because he's right sometimes...
4. Well, one is a biography that includes a grand Jewish conspiracy expressly adopted in a systematic effort to extinguish a culture, succeeding in 6 million deaths.  And the other is a historical/economic tract which was used to rationalize a system of economics eventually used for a large minority of the world's people.  The former is definitely "evil" because the evil is written into the pages.  Remains to be seen how the second book is not just "mistaken", for me at least.
5. Ok then.  
 

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1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

people like me are therefore dinosaurs and deserve the same fate as them? 

Does the rock deserve to be attracted to the ground and fall? Wrong question: it's a law of nature. You can see it, admit and try to understand it. Or fall free and see what happens. Sure you can always check, that one is free.

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4 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

1. You think if you bring the name of "Jewish" in the discussion that gives more weight to your point?

2. I heard this point amongst all you spoiled Westerners that went to school here and studied this low life Marx and once in a while, I find someone preaching to me, that went through tragedies and family split up the "critique" or "intellectual value."   I think differently. 

3. If someone robs a bank people like you look at the people with the trigger, this is what Main Kempf provides. They just show you the criminal element right away. Das Kapital is what I see a more complex program, which leads to the same trigger man however on the surface it shows everything as a legitimate perfect operation which makes it even more dangerous. Because a neo-nazi, you know right away who the criminal is, but a Neo-Marxist, uhmmm, that can be anyone, that can be even me that I talk about centrism, how do you know? Is hard to detect it my point is. 

4. So you keep lying to yourself that the books are different, maybe in writing, the way human minds used the literature lead to the same disaster no matter how much intellectual analysis comes from it by bored westerners. 

1. Wow.  Talk about missing a point.... "extinguish a culture, succeeding in 6 million deaths"
2. When analyzing an idea, I see adjectives and attributions like "spoiled Westerners" as signed that the speaker is letting emotion into the analysis.  Hey, I do it too.  No big deal.
3. Sure, but this drive to go deeper than who holds the gun seems so subjective.  Sometimes people will say "It's just a book" and other times "It's so much more dangerous".  I honestly try to be objective of such things.  The Bible, The Koran, The Fountainhead, Das Kapital and even the Communist Manifesto are just books to me because they aren't prescriptive.  And, yes, there's no doubt you can search my principles and find a contradiction.  Please go ahead, I do not profess to be without flaws.
4. People have said this to me about the Bible and religious groups.  That a book that explicitly demands its adherents to "love others as they would be loved" is a vessel for evil because of Residential Schools, A Face in the Crowd, the Crusades... etc.   They are making the same argument now for LGBTQ teaching, drag shows and on and on....


I don't discount your opinion because you lived under Communism.  I don't elevate it either.

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18 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

1. I find it interestingly how a lot of Christians use the name Jewish to push their points,

2. I was just observing. How many Jews died due to Das Kapital's theories or interpretation of those? Do you have any idea what Stalin did to the Jewish Community after WW2? With what theory did Stalin keep the masses in line? 

3. Of course Das Kapital is just a book to you...

4. I don't understand this point, what is the main idea here? 

1. Meh.  I could have used it or not.  I don't think I used it for any other reason than clarifying the obvious.
2. I already addressed the crux of this point when I talked about the inherent prescriptiveness of Hitler's book.  This doesn't change my mind on that.
3. Yes so we really can't discuss it productively.
4. I don't hate Christianity because the oppressor was holding a bible.  It's a set of philosophies and ideas like Das Kapital.  I have to make the point again but the other book says something different: "Get rid of this culture and kill its members and your problems are all solved"

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1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Do you think marginalized men (I've never heard him referring to simply white men) are not perhaps encouraged to be less whiny and to take responsibility by listening to his advice?

No, because he's stating the obvious and packaging it in pseudo-profound but totally clichéd self-help.  You don't need Jordan Peterson to tell you to eat healthy, stay in shape, show ambition and follow through on it.  You don't need Jordan Peterson to teach you to be stronk assertive man, and even less to get this advice on how to interact with women.  

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

He's not incorrect about the problems faced by young men and boys, who increasingly perform less well, academically, than young women and girls. He's also not wrong in trying to tell them how to do better.

No, but that's the problem with pinning down Jordan Peterson's long-winded and confusing writing.  He takes a bunch of common-sense truisms that everyone would agree on, but then mixes them with a sprinkle of angry and populist sloganeering, which is what his audience is actually interested in.  Self-help gurus for young men and boys are a dime-a- dozen.  The only reason that Peterson stands out is because he's riding the wave of anxiety that follows his audience everywhere.  

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6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No, because he's stating the obvious and packaging it in pseudo-profound but totally clichéd self-help.  You don't need Jordan Peterson to tell you to eat healthy, stay in shape, show ambition and follow through on it.  You don't need Jordan Peterson to teach you to be stronk assertive man, and even less to get this advice on how to interact with women.  

No, but that's the problem with pinning down Jordan Peterson's long-winded and confusing writing.  He takes a bunch of common-sense truisms that everyone would agree on, but then mixes them with a sprinkle of angry and populist sloganeering, which is what his audience is actually interested in.  Self-help gurus for young men and boys are a dime-a- dozen.  The only reason that Peterson stands out is because he's riding the wave of anxiety that follows his audience everywhere.  

The reason Peterson is significant is that he makes the case for values that are ridiculed today as somehow harmful when they are actually the order of things. Joseph Campbell, Northrop Frye, and Marshall McLuhan would appreciate his references to the cultural envelope of Western Culture which gets much of its force from the types and archetypes of the Great Code and the greatest ancient texts, from Homer through Aeschylus through Ovid and the Bible through Dante and Milton and so on.  They inform our very sense of meaning.

He has an understanding of the nature gods and myths that inform our cultural identities.  Setting all of this aflame like with the recklessness of the French Revolutionary is what we’re witnessing in real time today. We’ve been here before.  It’s another Inquisition.  Few are strong, sharp, or brave enough to stand up to the ignorant radicals who don’t understand how stupid they’re being because they have no understanding of the historical and philosophical underpinnings of their society.

University is supposed to set us straight on the shallowness and ineptitude of mainstream culture so that we can create the excellence that Rilke’s Torso of Apollo calls forth from any discerning person insightful enough to pay attention: “You must change your life.”

There aren’t many media voices reminding us of what makes life meaningful.

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10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The reason Peterson is significant is that he makes the case for values that are ridiculed today as somehow harmful when they are actually the order of things.

The only reason Jordan Peterson is significant is that his fans elevate him to a stature far beyond what his credentials deserve, and that's only because he's telling them what they want him to hear.  HIs characterization of the "natural order of things" is absurd and he's mocked around the globe as the "Lobster King" by academics who actually know things about those topics.  That's another problem with Peterson - his willingness to wade in and promote conclusions on topics for which he knows little/nothing.  

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Joseph Campbell, Northrop Frye, and Marshall McLuhan would appreciate his references to the cultural envelope of Western Culture which gets much of its force from the types and archetypes of the Great Code and the greatest ancient texts, from Homer through Aeschylus through Ovid and the Bible through Dante and Milton and so on.  They inform our very sense of meaning.

Jordan Peterson would approve this sort of pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook.  Have you read any of these books?  Honestly?  That question is just for you.  You don't actually have to answer.  

As for the "natural order of things", the contradiction he's making is self-evident.  Winners are winners, and losers are losers.  The richest and most successful people in the world are white dudes.  The fact that all the poor incels and disenfranchised young white men who follow Peterson is merely evidence of their beta status...if we're to follow his logic.  

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

University is supposed to set us straight on the shallowness and ineptitude of mainstream culture so that we can create the excellence that Rilke’s Torso of Apollo calls forth from any discerning person insightful enough to pay attention: “You must change your life.”

University is supposed to make us better critical and evidence-based thinkers.  

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3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The only reason Jordan Peterson is significant is that his fans elevate him to a stature far beyond what his credentials deserve, and that's only because he's telling them what they want him to hear.  HIs characterization of the "natural order of things" is absurd and he's mocked around the globe as the "Lobster King" by academics who actually know things about those topics.  That's another problem with Peterson - his willingness to wade in and promote conclusions on topics for which he knows little/nothing.  

Jordan Peterson would approve this sort of pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook.  Have you read any of these books?  Honestly?  That question is just for you.  You don't actually have to answer.  

As for the "natural order of things", the contradiction he's making is self-evident.  Winners are winners, and losers are losers.  The richest and most successful people in the world are white dudes.  The fact that all the poor incels and disenfranchised young white men who follow Peterson is merely evidence of their beta status...if we're to follow his logic.  

University is supposed to make us better critical and evidence-based thinkers.  

Very well said...

Peterson is such an intellectual nullity that podcaster Joe Rogan tripped him up on this "incel" point.  If incels are the "losers" why is Peterson championing them or does he even care ?  They're not reproducing by definition so they're evolutionary trail mix right ?

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4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The only reason Jordan Peterson is significant is that his fans elevate him to a stature far beyond what his credentials deserve, and that's only because he's telling them what they want him to hear.  HIs characterization of the "natural order of things" is absurd and he's mocked around the globe as the "Lobster King" by academics who actually know things about those topics.  That's another problem with Peterson - his willingness to wade in and promote conclusions on topics for which he knows little/nothing.  

Jordan Peterson would approve this sort of pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook.  Have you read any of these books?  Honestly?  That question is just for you.  You don't actually have to answer.  

As for the "natural order of things", the contradiction he's making is self-evident.  Winners are winners, and losers are losers.  The richest and most successful people in the world are white dudes.  The fact that all the poor incels and disenfranchised young white men who follow Peterson is merely evidence of their beta status...if we're to follow his logic.  

University is supposed to make us better critical and evidence-based thinkers.  

Yes I have read them.  You’re revealing the shallowness of your knowledge.  It’s not that there aren’t many other great thinkers out there like Peterson, it’s that few of them can make these ideas understandable to the general public and few will risk their status within academia or established media outlets.  He’s not uniquely heroic, but there are very few intellectuals bothering to take on the political factions that are compromising democracy and academic freedom.

Perhaps you think you’re admirable by repeating the mindless acceptance of so much cultural and political stupidity.  That’s how I see you, Hardner, and several other apologists for poor governance.  It’s not about Peterson, populism, or other figures you cast as demons, whether Trump or Poilievre.  It’s the refusal to see the giant log in the eye of our current government and organizational cultures.  Most Canadians sense this brokenness but few can articulate the pseudoscience and confusing dominant narratives that are making life harder generally.

Bravery and honesty are the exception it seems.  I don’t think they’ve been this exceptional in a long time.

You clearly buy into the idea that people are better or worse based on superficial group identifiers like skin colour.  You don’t see the repugnance of that outlook. Nevertheless you’re not alone and only contempt and division will result from your attitude.

Hardner, your Social Darwinist attitude towards those who are struggling is disgusting.  You think this outlook will heal the West and end the culture wars?   You’ve lost the plot.  

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20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. it’s that few of them can make these ideas understandable to the general public and few will risk their status within academia or established media outlets.

2. He’s not uniquely heroic, but there are very few intellectuals bothering to take on the political factions that are compromising democracy and academic freedom.

3. That’s how I see you, Hardner, and several other apologists for poor governance.  ... It’s the refusal to see the giant log in the eye of our current government and organizational cultures.  Most Canadians sense this brokenness but few can articulate the pseudoscience and confusing dominant narratives that are making life harder generally.

4. Hardner, your Social Darwinist attitude towards those who are struggling is disgusting.  You think this outlook will heal the West and end the culture wars?   You’ve lost the plot.  

1. You have hit on the key virtue of JP and the one reason I followed him and was hopeful.  The idea of the "public intellectual" disappeared and few will explain concepts, even badly, to "the" public anymore.
2. Agree 100%.
3. I am very cynical about the Liberals abuse of public ignorance to remain in power.  However, until "the" public is able to pay attention we don't have enough choices.  I think Moonbox likely is close to this as well.  

Believe me I would jump on "good enough" as a flavour and Doug Ford is inching into a zone where he can play the populism card while making real changes.  He's shown himself to be electable, at least, unlike the TPP and other populist carnival barkers.

4. I have no idea what I say that makes you say that.  I suspect you are projecting, just like the crowd of clowns who proclaim that I "love Trudeau" but there's a giant treat in store for you if you can find an example that would make me eat crow.  So find a link, and I will explain myself and very possibly apologize ... 
 

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28 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. You have hit on the key virtue of JP and the one reason I followed him and was hopeful.  The idea of the "public intellectual" disappeared and few will explain concepts, even badly, to "the" public anymore.
2. Agree 100%.
3. I am very cynical about the Liberals abuse of public ignorance to remain in power.  However, until "the" public is able to pay attention we don't have enough choices.  I think Moonbox likely is close to this as well.  

Believe me I would jump on "good enough" as a flavour and Doug Ford is inching into a zone where he can play the populism card while making real changes.  He's shown himself to be electable, at least, unlike the TPP and other populist carnival barkers.

4. I have no idea what I say that makes you say that.  I suspect you are projecting, just like the crowd of clowns who proclaim that I "love Trudeau" but there's a giant treat in store for you if you can find an example that would make me eat crow.  So find a link, and I will explain myself and very possibly apologize ... 
 

You said this with reference to “incels” and Moonbox said something similar with regard to “white losers”:

They're not reproducing by definition so they're evolutionary trail mix right ?”

You don’t seem to understand that the value someone like Peterson brings, apart from his cultural criticism, is in the attempt to identify and fix the crises that are reducing men’s participation in higher education and many fields below 50%.  He raises important points about the fact that men value themselves by what they do and aren’t respected for taking on the caregiving role that removes many women from the workforce temporarily following pregnancy.  Affirmative action doesn’t account for these differences, scoffing at biological facts and tendencies. Men are indeed falling apart and society at large pays the price.

Very few commentators are calling out reckless ideas like affirming a child’s non-biological gender preference when it may be temporary.  If children’s temporary preferences were affirmed on most matters, there would be no education or transference of values, healthy adaptive behaviours such as being on time, reading, being responsible, etc.

Foolish experimentation is underway in a range of categories, from euthanasia to hard drug use to gender reassignment surgery and ascribing pronouns that are basically biological lies.  Who is calling out these destabilizing moves?   I haven’t even mentioned the resegregation underway with race-based identity politics, top-down central planning by international elites, the list goes on.  What about the proxy war distraction we’re funding during a cost of living crisis?

These are the issues today.  One party doesn’t own these issues because it’s not really about left versus right, or rather, the “progressive” left is now the overreaching establishment compromising rights, security, and affordability.

Only leaders who provide opportunity and freedom for all are worth our time.  Most current political leaders are great at self-preservation but the current left are champagne socialists who use identity politics and overseas threats as distractions from the pressing issues of our time: affordability, freedom, opportunity, merit, energy security…

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On 2/7/2023 at 1:29 PM, Michael Hardner said:

1. It's also a critical framework, and an examination of history.  If you like watching Peterson because there are some good bits you should also read Marx by principle.

I doubt Marx is ever entertaining. I do watch Thomas Sowell, who famously was a Marxist when younger. He says his first real job working with numbers dealing with US employment figures, incentives and behavior cured him of that forever. Besides, why spend time on an ideology which is only occasionally 'good'? I rarely even watch Peterson.

On 2/7/2023 at 1:29 PM, Michael Hardner said:

2. I have to turn him off when he talks about things that aren't "self help"... saying "there's no such thing as climate" on climate change,

I'm not sure what he might have been referring to. It's not like he doesn't believe in climate change, AFAIK. He just thinks that the proposed solutions are largely unworkable and that humankind would be better helped by devoting that money to things like education and nutrition in the third world. His view is the only way out of the climate change issue is scientific/technological innovation and discoveries. Again, AFAIK. I don't devote much time to him. I just recall seeing an amusing and somewhat interesting little snippet on climate change from a question/answer session he did at Cambridge.

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19 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes I have read them.  You’re revealing the shallowness of your knowledge.  

?

You're revealing your inability (or unwillingness) to debate the topic.    

19 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not that there aren’t many other great thinkers out there like Peterson, it’s that few of them can make these ideas understandable to the general public and few will risk their status within academia or established media outlets.  He’s not uniquely heroic, but there are very few intellectuals bothering to take on the political factions that are compromising democracy and academic freedom.

He's not risking anything! ?

He makes far more money now as a provocateur and culture-war general than he ever did as a tenured university professor.  There's nothing "brave" about cashing in on the ignorance and anxiety of angry white dudes. 

If he was still just talking about academic freedom and the danger of group-think, like when I first heard about him, I might still have some time for him.  Instead, he weighs in on any and all topics about which the rabble is already fired up.  Whether it's Ukraine, or vaccines, George Floyd, #meToo etc, he's so predictably on-brand for what the apes wants to hear that the idea of him as a "great thinker" is a grand joke.  All he's doing is taking the things you already believe and want to hear, and wrapping them up in a pseudo-intellectual package.  

19 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s the refusal to see the giant log in the eye of our current government and organizational cultures.  Most Canadians sense this brokenness but few can articulate the pseudoscience and confusing dominant narratives that are making life harder generally.

Most Canadians can see that the Trudeau government is incompetent, as was his father's.  What most Canadians don't agree on is your delusional worldviews, your hysterics and your broken-record sloganeering.  

I'd love to be talking about the things that Trudeau has got wrong, and how a more pragmatic government would do better.  Instead, we're wasting our time and energy debating reality, and how the whole world is conspiring to take away your freedom.  ?

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10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

?

You're revealing your inability (or unwillingness) to debate the topic.    

He's not risking anything! ?

He makes far more money now as a provocateur and culture-war general than he ever did as a tenured university professor.  There's nothing "brave" about cashing in on the ignorance and anxiety of angry white dudes. 

If he was still just talking about academic freedom and the danger of group-think, like when I first heard about him, I might still have some time for him.  Instead, he weighs in on any and all topics about which the rabble is already fired up.  Whether it's Ukraine, or vaccines, George Floyd, #meToo etc, he's so predictably on-brand for what the apes wants to hear that the idea of him as a "great thinker" is a grand joke.  All he's doing is taking the things you already believe and want to hear, and wrapping them up in a pseudo-intellectual package.  

Most Canadians can see that the Trudeau government is incompetent, as was his father's.  What most Canadians don't agree on is your delusional worldviews, your hysterics and your broken-record sloganeering.  

I'd love to be talking about the things that Trudeau has got wrong, and how a more pragmatic government would do better.  Instead, we're wasting our time and energy debating reality, and how the whole world is conspiring to take away your freedom.  ?

You can’t be critical of the prevailing problems when your beliefs exemplify them.

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22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No, because he's stating the obvious and packaging it in pseudo-profound but totally clichéd self-help.  You don't need Jordan Peterson to tell you to eat healthy, stay in shape, show ambition and follow through on it.  You don't need Jordan Peterson to teach you to be stronk assertive man, and even less to get this advice on how to interact with women.  

You're correct. _I_ don't need that. But there clearly are a number of men, principally young men, lost men, who do. And if his advice helps them then I certainly have no issue with that.

22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No, but that's the problem with pinning down Jordan Peterson's long-winded and confusing writing.  He takes a bunch of common-sense truisms that everyone would agree on, but then mixes them with a sprinkle of angry and populist sloganeering, which is what his audience is actually interested in. 

There's lots of angry people out there. And aside from when dealing with imbecilic woke people who consider anyone who opposes multiple genders to be akin to Hitler I rarely see him as 'angry'. 

And speaking about imbecilic woke, I give you,this. 

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3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You can’t be critical of the prevailing problems when your beliefs exemplify them.

What you're essentially telling me here is that if I don't agree with your grievances (or the prevailing problems), I can't complain about them.  No shit.  

Whatever kernel of truth there is to your worldview is tainted by your hysterics, hyperbole and paranoia.  

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

You're correct. _I_ don't need that. But there clearly are a number of men, principally young men, lost men, who do. And if his advice helps them then I certainly have no issue with that.

Lost men aren't going to be helped by echoing their anger back to them and delivering sermons in basic common-sense.  

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

There's lots of angry people out there. And aside from when dealing with imbecilic woke people who consider anyone who opposes multiple genders to be akin to Hitler I rarely see him as 'angry'. 

And speaking about imbecilic woke, I give you,this. 

Sure. I agree. This gets pretty stupid.  Over-wokeness and out-of-touch virtue-signaling goes way too far, way too often.  If Jordan Peterson was still focusing on academic arguments about stuff like this, I'd have nothing bad to say about it.  That's not who he is or what he's doing anymore.  

 

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19 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

What you're essentially telling me here is that if I don't agree with your grievances (or the prevailing problems), I can't complain about them.  No shit.  

Whatever kernel of truth there is to your worldview is tainted by your hysterics, hyperbole and paranoia.  

Lost men aren't going to be helped by echoing their anger back to them and delivering sermons in basic common-sense.  

Sure. I agree. This gets pretty stupid.  Over-wokeness and out-of-touch virtue-signaling goes way too far, way too often.  If Jordan Peterson was still focusing on academic arguments about stuff like this, I'd have nothing bad to say about it.  That's not who he is or what he's doing anymore.  

 

It’s your lack of concern for what matters that I’m pointing out.  Again though, this is common in Canada and explains why our country has declined.

 

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59 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s your lack of concern for what matters that I’m pointing out.  Again though, this is common in Canada and explains why our country has declined.

Too much of what you think "matters" is some combination of hysterically exaggerated, vague or not even real in the first place.  ?‍♂️

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Too much of what you think "matters" is some combination of hysterically exaggerated, vague or not even real in the first place.  ?‍♂️

 

 

That’s funny because a lot of Canadians aren’t happy with the state of the country and our government has become a subject of international ridicule.  Oh right that’s all nothing.  How melodramatic of me.  

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12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s funny because a lot of Canadians aren’t happy with the state of the country and our government has become a subject of international ridicule.  Oh right that’s all nothing.  How melodramatic of me.  

Even I'm not happy with the state of the country, or our government.  You'll not find me saying a good thing about Justin Trudeau anywhere on this forum, ever. 

People being generally unhappy still doesn't make your balogna real.  

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8 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Even I'm not happy with the state of the country, or our government.  You'll not find me saying a good thing about Justin Trudeau anywhere on this forum, ever. 

People being generally unhappy still doesn't make your balogna real.  

Have you lived in Canada for more than a few years?  If you’ve lived here for decades you should see the contrast between what we had and what we have today.  If you don’t see the gravity of this, I can’t help you.  I’m not repeating my explanations.  Avert your eyes.  Hopefully you have enough money to insulate yourself from reality.  

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Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Have you lived in Canada for more than a few years?  If you’ve lived here for decades you should see the contrast between what we had and what we have today.

I've lived here my whole life.  I can see things are different.  I don't agree they're dire.  

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

 If you don’t see the gravity of this, I can’t help you.  I’m not repeating my explanations.  Avert your eyes.  Hopefully you have enough money to insulate yourself from reality.  

I don't want you to repeat your explanations either.  They're nonsense.    

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