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Turtle Island: Fact Check


Bill67

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21 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I think the deaths might have some similarities to what happened in orphanages, and later, group homes.  They still treat kids like crap in group homes, or at least make them a low priority.  The cultural genocide part i assume is more unique.

Yes. I don't think the object was to kill kids but on the other hand I don't think they were very highly valued.

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On 9/23/2022 at 9:32 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

However, we should have known better about residential schools etc., there's no excuse for that cruelty.

I don't think that residential schools were intentionally evil, the people who planned them just underestimated how evil, petty and disgusting humans are when they get that much power over other humans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Just imagine that it's January 1960 and you know that there are children who are still living outside in igloos in -40 weather, they don't speak English, can't do basic math, and they'll never get the chance to be Drs or lawyers or engineers or even live in a house because their parents are actual stone age Luddites.

Setting up thousands of schools all across the bald prairies and frozen north wasn't an option in 1876. Even if they were, attendance would be sparse, and teaching kids English, math, etc would be nearly impossible.

Residential schools were the only viable option for bringing kids from the stone age to the industrial age/machine age within the span of several generations.

The biggest downside of the planning aspect was erasing their culture and replacing it with Christianity imo. Instead of celebrating the fact that their people managed to survive for millennia with only stone age tools they were made to feel less-than, which is a crime. 

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8 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

The term/words  . . . 'genocide' and 'mass graves'  do not belong in the residential school narrative. To use those terms/words is disingenuous.  Native leaders know this, and use it to trigger the 'white guilt' complex.

I think there was a very real attempt at cultural genocide, but that wasn't considered evil back in the day. It was all too normal. 

It's the epitome of presentism to think that it was "evil", but we can still feel some shame. 

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19 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I don't think that residential schools were intentionally evil, the people who planned them just underestimated how evil, petty and disgusting humans are when they get that much power over other humans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Just imagine that it's January 1960 and you know that there are children who are still living outside in igloos in -40 weather, they don't speak English, can't do basic math, and they'll never get the chance to be Drs or lawyers or engineers or even live in a house because their parents are actual stone age Luddites.

Setting up thousands of schools all across the bald prairies and frozen north wasn't an option in 1876. Even if they were, attendance would be sparse, and teaching kids English, math, etc would be nearly impossible.

Residential schools were the only viable option for bringing kids from the stone age to the industrial age/machine age within the span of several generations.

The biggest downside of the planning aspect was erasing their culture and replacing it with Christianity imo. Instead of celebrating the fact that their people managed to survive for millennia with only stone age tools they were made to feel less-than, which is a crime. 

Well they did forcefully take children away from their parents also, regardless of intentions.

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19 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I think there was a very real attempt at cultural genocide, but that wasn't considered evil back in the day. It was all too normal. 

It's the epitome of presentism to think that it was "evil", but we can still feel some shame. 

Same attempts are made today by the religion of woke, telling white people they are inherently racist and going all cancel culture any time you want to support white heritage.. 

White culture is apparently the only culture where its racist to celebrate it. You can celebrate black culture, Asian culture, Latino culture just not white culture.

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On 9/23/2022 at 9:31 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. Well nobody is saying this, so not sure what you are punching the air for...
2. If you believe that a middle eastern zombie rose from the grave and was God's little boy then let me sell you the myth that Christianity is about being better than brown people...

You are a small-minded thinker whose posts have a limited perspective, and you want to think you're great because you were born into a race of conquerors.  Weirdly, you don't want to acknowledge the past wrongs and yet you are proud over achievements that had nothing to do with you.  You should really leave the forum and get an education before returning IMO.

So? Is north America actually the back of a tortoise or not?

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On 9/24/2022 at 6:29 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

What's odd is that these fringe views get traction.  Maybe some people are just dumb.  Maybe humans can't handle freedom of viewpoints.  Maybe many people are better to be brainwashed.  Religions did it for thousands of years, things went ok, but not perfect.

Very astute.

I figure about 70% of humans are more comfortable following someone else's lead. That leaves 30% to lead and only a fraction of those could be called "good leaders".

Then there's the difference between the liberal perspective and the conservative perspective. As you correctly point out, they are rather different. 

I'm no fan of "Contantine's Folly", but I do believe in a "Gawd"...in a way of my own. However...Christianity...and indeed all religions...provide the masses with structure...rules...that which a Civil society need to remain...civil. Family...Gawd...hierarchy...and yes even race. All form the pillars of the imperfect but stable societies that you say lasted thousands of years.

But today the progressive mind wants to tear these pillars down. It may not have been perfect, but as you say, the religions provided a societal base that worked. And as we remove these pillars...

Chaos ensues. 

Edited by Nationalist
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22 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I think there was a very real attempt at cultural genocide, but that wasn't considered evil back in the day. It was all too normal. 

It's the epitome of to think that it was "evil", but we can still feel some shame. 

75 to 150 years ago I think the government thought that native youth needed to be assimilated into Canadian society in order to function as a normal human being.  I doubt they thought assimilation was a form of genocide.  Leaving them uneducated on reserves was considered a non-starter and churches with staff to run residential schools had no intention of setting up schools on reserves.  It is doubtful anyone would want to go and live in a reserve to begin with.   I don't think anyone today would either.  Sadly there were some bad actors in the residential school system who did abuse a lot of them.  But in light to today's thinking, the residential school system was a bad idea.  Hindsight is always better than foresight.  

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On 9/28/2022 at 12:26 PM, herbie said:

Only if you think Krupp ovens must be part of the definition of genocide.

It was a concerted effort to extinguish the native culture, not to murder the people.

Was it an effort to extinguish native culture or was it an effort to assimilate them into white man's society so they could function?   How does one make that distinction?    

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Was it an effort to extinguish native culture or was it an effort to assimilate them into white man's society so they could function?   How does one make that distinction?    

Both, they weren't even allowed in white schools until the 50's and 60's. Saying they had to be warehoused in native only schools is a crock.

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18 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Well they did forcefully take children away from their parents also, regardless of intentions.

Is that any worse than modern-day liberalism, which is seeking to open a pathway for children to get access to gender reassignment therapy, including genital mutilation, just via communication between the child and school counsellors, where parents are excluded from the conversation? 

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Mr Irrelevance spews the same toxic shit again....

16 hours ago, Aristides said:

 How does one make that distinction?   

By NOT beating them for speaking their own language.
By maybe teaching in their own tongue along with ESL
By letting them go home on weekends
By setting up one rooms schools on reserve.
By training some people on reserve to become teacher.
By building roads to and from those reserves.
By not letting churches do the 'educating'.
By not treating them like shit when they interact with 'the white man'
By recognizing they are part of "our" culture as much as we are theirs

shall I go on?
 

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2 hours ago, herbie said:

Mr Irrelevance spews the same toxic shit again....

By NOT beating them for speaking their own language.
By maybe teaching in their own tongue along with ESL
By letting them go home on weekends
By setting up one rooms schools on reserve.
By training some people on reserve to become teacher.
By building roads to and from those reserves.
By not letting churches do the 'educating'.
By not treating them like shit when they interact with 'the white man'
By recognizing they are part of "our" culture as much as we are theirs

shall I go on?
 

Except I never said that. You quoted the wrong person.

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6 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Is that any worse than modern-day liberalism, which is seeking to open a pathway for children to get access to gender reassignment therapy, including genital mutilation, just via communication between the child and school counsellors, where parents are excluded from the conversation? 

Sadly lefties were major abusers in the residential school era now they have their sites set on a new race to do harm to. Sad

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26 minutes ago, West said:

Sadly lefties were major abusers in the residential school era now they have their sites set on a new race to do harm to. Sad

This went on for almost 100 years under both Liberal and Conservative governments, politicizing it is just a way of blowing it off. This wasn't political, it was societal. 

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1 hour ago, Aristides said:

This went on for almost 100 years under both Liberal and Conservative governments, politicizing it is just a way of blowing it off. This wasn't political, it was societal. 

The Liberals were in power for the vast majority of our history. One of the reasons I can't vote Liberal.. they take no responsibility for their actions and blame conservatives.

 

It's like the Democrats in the US who use the bs "we switched sides" nonsense when pointing out they are the party of Jim Crowe and slavery

Edited by West
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5 minutes ago, West said:

The Liberals were in power for the vast majority of our history. One of the reasons I can't vote Liberal.. they take no responsibility for their actions and blame conservatives.

 

It's like the Democrats in the US who use the bs "we switched sides" nonsense when pointing out they are the party of Jim Crowe and slavery

And yet the creation of the system was under the Conservatives. By politicizing this, you are just trying to blow it off.

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On 9/27/2022 at 10:22 PM, herbie said:

You can't possibly still believe that. That's what they told us when we were in school, but now they all admit the agenda was to wipe out their culture. They were torn away from their parents like an infant from a crackhead Mom. Teachers told us they were just like Private or militar schools, but no one I know was beaten for speaking Italian or Cantonese among themselves.

But there are certain points. I am sick of hearing every candidate and speaker at every public meeting acknowledge it's taking place on such and such territory. The emcee can say that once. And I don't know any local natives referring to N America as Turtle Island, yet CBC seems stuck on that.
Maybe if the politicians say it is so, everyone will think it is so like Great Bear Rainforest for Central Coast and Metrotown for Old Orchard in Burnaby.
I was also annoyed to hear one of the native leaders refer to mass graves instead of unmarked ones, as if they bulldozed children into a pit like the Einsatzgruppen.

Agenda?  The educators and people setting up public education were English and French speakers.  Did they generally have biases against promoting cultures that seemed primitive and harsh by comparison with their own?  Yes, just as you’re in no rush to live as an Indigenous Madagascaran or New Guinean.  Is that “cultural genocide”?   Would it have been more “noble” not to provide public education to Indigenous? All that this whole revisionist history movement is teaching me is to stick to your own and support your own, because anything that you do to help can and will be held against you once your progressive values are deemed retrograde by future generations.  It’s called presentism.   Yet even today very few people really believe it’s better not to educate children than to educate them.  Today’s education is no less a form of indoctrination than the education of a century ago.  Our textbooks will be ridiculed and revised.  The power brokers who run our institutions define the truth, yet few people would propose anarchy.

Anyone who actually reads Thomas King or Talaga or any of the most current Indigenous accounts of the Indian Act learns quickly that the problems in residential schools were actually pretty human and pedestrian: Stretched and poorly advised managers didn’t listen to Dr. Bryce’s report on the spread of disease due to crowded spaces.  Indigenous kids weren’t murdered, or rather, if anyone abused someone to the extent of causing death, that was never allowed or acceptable.  Abuses took place in all schools, more so in residential schools.

Certainly racism was more prevalent.  Separating kids from parents was harsh.  Boarding kids from remote communities was done harshly, but life was harder then in general.  We need rational and honest commentary or we get politicization instead of fairness and justice.  

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2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

I'm not the one refusing to take responsibility, those who are politicizing it are. 

Thats all lefties do is politicize this even tho they are responsible for it. 

Also use it as veiled racist attacks against white people and attacks on religion

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4 minutes ago, West said:

Thats all lefties do is politicize this even tho they are responsible for it. 

Also use it as veiled racist attacks against white people and attacks on religion

That's it, keep politicizing it. We are all responsible for letting this go on for nearly a century. 

BTW, everyone who disagrees with you is not a "lefty". Labels are just a lazy way of blowing them off.

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