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Canada Must Stop Funding Ukraine War


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NATO stirred the pot decades ago when it refused admission for Russia and encouraged former Soviet republics and satellites to join the western alliance at a time when the Cold War appeared to end and the opportunity for warm relations with Russia finally arose.

Most Crimeans want to stay in Russia.  It was originally part of Russia.  Russia wanted the Donbas region to be independent because of the mixed groups (Russian and Ukrainian) and old Russian territory claims.   Ukraine supported this plan in the Turkey summit with Russia until they realized that the US, Canada, and other countries would fund a proxy war.  Now there’s no political resolution and endless suffering and war in Ukraine.   How many more billions are Canadians willing to pay for Freeland’s war?

We need a concrete timeline for a political solution.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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President Putin's objective was not just Crimea and the Donbas. Like Stalin, he wanted to take all of Ukraine. For Russia to invade the Ukraine is the same as if the USA invaded Canada. Ukrainians still remember the terrible crimes the Russians committed against the Ukraine, particularly the famine in the 1930's and is being repated now. You are calling for appeasement. That is a policy that will encourage Putin to invade NATO countries and that will cause a nuclear war.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

President Putin's objective was not just Crimea and the Donbas. Like Stalin, he wanted to take all of Ukraine. For Russia to invade the Ukraine is the same as if the USA invaded Canada. Ukrainians still remember the terrible crimes the Russians committed against the Ukraine, particularly the famine in the 1930's and is being repated now. You are calling for appeasement. That is a policy that will encourage Putin to invade NATO countries and that will cause a nuclear war.

That is not a verifiable perspective and is not what Russia has done.  Russia could’ve wiped Ukraine off the map in 48 hours.  I don’t know their full objective and either do you.  I don’t see the value in prolonging a war without a clear objective.  If the US invaded Canada their own constitution would require democratic representation.

Perhaps a better analogy to the situation in Ukraine is to consider how the US would feel if Canada decided to join the Warsaw Pact and our government started receiving arms and funding from Russia.

You need to read about the Ukrainian attacks on Crimea, Azov Brigade, civil war in Donbas, etc.  Clearly a line must be drawn against Russia, but what is it?   We don’t know.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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43 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You need to read about the Ukrainian attacks on Crimea, Azov Brigade, civil war in Donbas, etc.  Clearly a line must be drawn against Russia, but what is it?

That was Hitler's excuse for invading the Rhineland, the Sudetenland, the rest of Czechoslovakia and Poland. If we had opposed him in the Rhineland, he would have stopped. The point is that the Ukranians want to keep the Russians out. It is their country, not the Russians'. We have a clear objective. Help the Ukraine send the Russians home. 

We didn't compell the Balkan states or Poland to join NATO. They asked to join. If Putin takes Ukraine, will he then go after Lithuainia? If he does, NATO is obligated to defend Lithuainia. That means war with Russia. That means a few hours of conventional war, followed by an all out nuclear exchange. The war would be over in a few hours and within a month, most of the human race would be dead. Stopping President Putin in Ukraine will hopefully prevent that. 

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4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

not even close to accurate

Russia's military is vastly overrated

this is the best they can do

and it's pretty pathetic

I don’t think so at all.  I’m not saying they could occupy Ukraine in 48 hours but they have the weapons.

Look, it’s not in Russia’s interests to cut down civilians.  They’re clearly securing land passage between the Crimea and Donbas.  Of course it’s not okay, but where is our maintenance of war leading?  Is the idea that after several years Russia will leave so western countries can run it like Afghanistan?  Like, settle the borders and draw up treaties and military assurances and move on.  Canada is the second largest donor to Ukraine and it’s tens of billions.  

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Canada is totally dependent upon collective security with NATO & NORAD as the centre pieces

and Canada is a free rider in terms of mass

so it is a strategic imperative for Canada to be at the forefront of defending the approaches to NATO

this is Canada's only saving grace

Canada doesn't have aircraft carriers

but when there is a NATO mission, Canada is at the sharp end with boots on the ground

as the only other North American member of the alliance besides the Americans

that is Canada's linchpin, the focal point

realpolitik, Canada has to play to her strengths

as without the Vimy Myth, there is no Canada

 

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It's leading here: this is Nazi 2.0. This is what Hitler did. It respects no boundaries, no principles. If you don't resist and defeat it now; if it's allowed to grow and propagate; what will you do when it comes to your door? Who guaranteed that it wouldn't? Do you have these guarantees?

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12 minutes ago, myata said:

It's leading here: this is Nazi 2.0. This is what Hitler did.

not actually

Hitler's five pronged attack on Poland went off without a hitch

Putin is rather doing what Stalin did right after

which was to try to match Hitler by invading Finland in a five pronged attack

the General's told Stalin it was a bad idea, should just be one prong straight at Helsinki

but Stalin insisted it had to be a five pronged attack, just like Hitler did

then the Soviets could not support the five prongs due to a lack of logistics

so tiny Finland laid a beating on the Soviets with asymmetrical warfare

otherwise known as the Winter War of 1939-40

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51 minutes ago, myata said:

It's leading here: this is Nazi 2.0. This is what Hitler did. It respects no boundaries, no principles. If you don't resist and defeat it now; if it's allowed to grow and propagate; what will you do when it comes on your door? Who guaranteed that it wouldn't? Do you have these guarantees?

I just don’t think that’s a fair anology.  Russia is asserting defence on its doorstep.  However, Russia must not rule over any region that doesn’t want Russia to do so.  Really Russia can and must only walk away with Crimea and assurances of protection for the Russophiles in Dombas.  The Russians say they want to rebuild like they did successfully in Chechnya.  The West must draw a line in the sand on further encroachment from Russia.  They can do that through EU defense.  Leave Ukraine out of NATO or we’ll be funding endless civil war in Eastern Europe.  

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27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 "Russia is asserting defence on its doorstep."

And Hitler said exactly the same thing. "Asserting" means to be exact: bombs; shelling of cities; injuring and killing innocent civilians and so on, no need to waste anybody's time. This is beyond blind, naive or stupid. You are apologizing for Hitler of our time. Cheers!

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34 minutes ago, myata said:

And Hitler said exactly the same thing. "Asserting" means to be exact: bombs; shelling of cities; injuring and killing innocent civilians and so on, no need to waste anybody's time. This is beyond blind, naive or stupid. You are apologizing for Hitler of our time. Cheers!

You seem to be ignoring the history or you don’t know it.  Russia is out of line and civilians have suffered unnecessarily.  There are quite opposed forces within parts of Ukraine itself and the current government imprisoned the leader of the opposition.  The first Ukraine military group trained by NATO is the the Neo-Nazi Azov Brigade.  Even the NY Times call them that.  Ukraine has had somewhat oppressive policies towards ethnic minorities such as Hungarians, and yes, Russians.  I’m just saying it’s complicated and I don’t know what the endgame is for what we’re funding.  

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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

There are quite opposed forces within parts of Ukraine itself and the current government imprisoned the leader of the opposition.

You are only repeating Russia's bullshit. No that doesn't justify in any way, even very minimal one, Russia's invasion of a sovereign European nation anymore than did fake pretexts of Nazi's. There may be devil himself residing in Ukraine and still it wouldn't justify Russia barging in and behaving like a devilish horde without any reason. Russia is Nazi 2.0 of this time, it's that simple.

Edited by myata
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37 minutes ago, myata said:

You are only repeating Russia's bullshit. No that doesn't justify in any way, even very minimal one, Russia's invasion of a sovereign European nation anymore than did fake pretexts of Nazi's. There may can be devil himself residing in Ukraine and still it wouldn't justify Russia barging in and behaving like a devilish horde without any reason. Russia is Nazi 2.0 of this time, it's that simple.

Russia should not have done this.  Would America have done any better?

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Just now, myata said:

Let's see. When was the last time America invaded and attacked an independent, democratic European nation?

Well America has propped up many dictatorships.  Remember Iran-Contra?  What about the opium trade leading up to Vietnam?   Henry Ford and many American businesses continued to sell to Nazi Germany.   Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather be on Team America than Team Russia, but these countries’ interests are much more aligned than meets the eye.  Russia needs to stay out of Ukraine unless a region democratically chooses to join Russia, as would be the case in Crimea.  Occupying countries against the will of the people is wrong.  Let’s make sure we don’t do the same thing in Ukraine.  

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11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well America has propped up many dictatorships.  Remember Iran-Contra?

Why are you answering a different question? The question was not is America perfect and unblemished standard of the world.

11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Occupying countries against the will of the people is wrong.

Good that we agree. There's a subtle question that still hangs, how do we define occupying "with the will of people"; not by fake "referendums" conducted by armed occupiers by any chance? but OK next time.

11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Let’s make sure we don’t do the same thing in Ukraine.  

As soon as you any factual evidence of such intent everybody should know.

Edited by myata
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Canada is not a neutral

Canada is an American client state

Canada does not have an independent foreign policy

Canada's foreign policy is to curry favour in Washington by adhering to American foreign policy

Canada taking a neutral position vis a vis Russia is not a realistic aspiration

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22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

NATO stirred the pot decades ago when it refused admission for Russia and encouraged former Soviet republics and satellites to join the western alliance at a time when the Cold War appeared to end and the opportunity for warm relations with Russia finally arose.

Most Crimeans want to stay in Russia.  It was originally part of Russia.  Russia wanted the Donbas region to be independent because of the mixed groups (Russian and Ukrainian) and old Russian territory claims.   Ukraine supported this plan in the Turkey summit with Russia until they realized that the US, Canada, and other countries would fund a proxy war.  Now there’s no political resolution and endless suffering and war in Ukraine.   How many more billions are Canadians willing to pay for Freeland’s war?

We need a concrete timeline for a political solution.  

It won't be long and Canadians will tire of this war, and withdraw it's support to Ukraine. Just like Afghanistan,  not that it our contributions have amounted to much as we are cheap as fuck. All we really accomplished was clean out the closet of all our junk... tied up valuable resources from other countries that were sending modern equipment. 

Fuck Russia, since when did we settle territory disputes with genocide, and total destruction of cities, and towns. villages. we either fund Ukraine or step in directly or give Putin everything he wants..

 

 

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Just to understand: Putin is here for nothing less than rewriting the world order for decades or ages to come. Dictators with nukes can do anything they like, genocides included, total open season. This is what's really at stake here, far from Ukraine.

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15 hours ago, myata said:

You are only repeating Russia's bullshit. No that doesn't justify in any way, even very minimal one, Russia's invasion of a sovereign European nation anymore than did fake pretexts of Nazi's. There may be devil himself residing in Ukraine and still it wouldn't justify Russia barging in and behaving like a devilish horde without any reason. Russia is Nazi 2.0 of this time, it's that simple.

Its not just Russian bullshit. Its also Czech bullshit and Slovak bullshit and Hungarian bullshit and Serbian bullshit and a few others on top of that.

1. The only Nazi-like people in that little war, are Ukrainian Azovs.

2. You choose to completely ignore the recent history...as in, the REASON for this aggression. This position of yours is completely illogical.

3. Donbas and Crimea had referendums at the same time. Both voted to become independent states. Crimea now is...Donbas will be. But the Azovs attacked the Donbas right after the referendum and have been attacking that region ever since.

4. Its rather obvious that Russia has no interest in the whole of Ukraine, or any other nation. All this bullshit talk about Putin attacking NATO nations is...dumb...expensive...and dangerous.

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57 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Its not just Russian bullshit.

- not: exactly Russia's BS word to word. These were not referendums. There's no acceptable reasons for aggressions, invasions and genocides.

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On 6/23/2022 at 11:00 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Perhaps a better analogy to the situation in Ukraine is to consider how the US would feel if Canada decided to join the Warsaw Pact and our government started receiving arms and funding from Russia.

Leftists don't understand that concept.

They can't even see the similarity between this war and the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the CMC was almost the exact same scenario.

Russian missiles in Cuba were considered a threat to the US so the US proposed all-out war if they weren't removed. Note that the CMC was in 1962, just a year after the US invaded Cuba (Bay of Pigs). Still, the US took the position that Cuba had no right to be defended by Russia, and now Russia is saying that Ukraine can't join NATO. Same, same. 

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On 6/23/2022 at 12:37 PM, myata said:

It's leading here: this is Nazi 2.0. This is what Hitler did. It respects no boundaries, no principles. If you don't resist and defeat it now; if it's allowed to grow and propagate; what will you do when it comes on your door? Who guaranteed that it wouldn't? Do you have these guarantees?

Ukraine is bringing NATO right to Russia's doorstep. They don't just have a tiny border with Russia either, they have about 3,000 km of border with Russia and Belarus. It's about a 9-hr drive from the eastern edge of Ukraine to Moscow itself. 

If you think that the US would allow Canada to enter into a military alliance with China, NoKo and Russia, and have their troops, stealth fighters, rocket launchers, tanks, etc parked in Windsor you've got another thing coming. There would be American tanks in Ottawa before you could say "Hi, uncle Xi!"

This is just the answer to a trivia question for Canadians, but Russia would have to live with NATO all up in their grill for generations to come.

Citizens of western Russia would have the exact same life that Berlin residents had during the 50s, 60s and 70s. That's no life.

Ukraine can go to hell, and they are. I wouldn't give Zelenski the steam off my crap. 

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22 hours ago, myata said:

Let's see. When was the last time America invaded and attacked an independent, democratic European nation?

The US invaded Cuba in 1961. Cuba got some Russian missiles for self-defence. The missiles there were comparable to American missile installations in Turkey. 

In 1972 the US gov't got definitive proof of the missiles in Cuba and said "Hell no, it will be all out war if those missiles aren't removed." 

Russia and the US removed their missiles from Cuba and Turkey, war was averted.

But Ukraine never stopped talking about joining NATO. Zelenski even admitted that was a mistake. Now they're paying the price.

FYI Russia has an international border with 12 countries, and every country in Europe and Aia has a history of war with all of their neighbours. If we had a border with NoKo, China and some of the 'stans our outlook on national defence would be a lot more serious. Desperate even. 

Russia can't fuck around and leave a mess for future generations. They have to keep things in check. Ukraine is finding out first hand how serious Russia is. Ukraine can go to hell. 

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